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Cheating at Jakku Open? (Thread from Reddit)

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. But I have as shaky of hands as anybody, and little scoots either closer, or further happen all the time because I have trouble keeping my hands steady. 

 

That wasn't the product of shaky hands. My hands sometimes shake too (I really should drink less soda), and it never looks like what that guy did. Steady, smoothly, quickly sliding his ships and templates straight back as he moved them. No wobble to speak of. And then, yeah, it didn't happen with the third ship. 

 

There is no slippery slope where we correctly identify this as cheating and then someone burns down your house because you have shaky hands. Really.

 

But you can still perform maneuvers incorrectly steadily and smoothly simply by just being nervous or, perhaps more likely, by being inattentive.

 

I feel like there would need to be a lot more evidence for something like this. If we have another video or two of him playing and we see similar illegal movements of the ships at closely contested ranges, the call would be easier to make.

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The thing is, this isn't unprecedented. Moving your units while measuring with a tool is a time-honored tradition among the scumbags of miniatures gaming. It happens in Warmachine, it happens in 40k, it probably happens everywhere. So when you see someone do that, plain as day, you know what happened. Maybe you couldn't secure a conviction in a court of law, but so what? We have no reasonable doubt standard here because, you know, we're not going to throw him in prison or anything.

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It looks clearly cheating to me.

 

Seems like an incredible risky and stupid way to cheat though. With any knowledge of the rule of 11 the palp aces player could have known that the jumpmaster player was cheating. 

 

Rule of 11? What might that be?

 

 

The game board is 3' x 3', which works out to 22.86 in units of small bases.

 

If each player sets up their ships at the edge of range 1 of their edge, exactly perpendicular to the board edge, then the distance separating them before any maneuvers is 22.86 - 5 = 17.86.

 

Range 3 is 7.5 small bases, so the total combined distance travelled by both ships before getting in range must be 17.86 - 7.5 = 10.36. Therefore, a total movement of 11 between the two ships will result in firing range, whereas 10 will not. Colloquially this is referred to as the rule of 11, although the specifics change based on where exactly the ships are initially set up. In this case, the Shuttle is all the way on the back row (0.5 away from the edge of range 1), and it looks like the JumpMasters were set up a hair short of range 1. So the total travel distance required to get into range 3 in this case would be 10.36 + 0.5 + [delta], where [delta] is the distance the JumpMasters are backed off from the edge of range 1. We don't have the initial setup recorded, but taking a screenshot of the video and measuring distances I'm getting a [delta] of about 0.03 - 0.05 small base ships. It's possible that it's right on the edge of range 1, but I think it's slightly backed off by one or two mm.

 

So:

To get to range 3 the minimum combined distance travelled is 10.86 + [delta].

To get to range 2 the minimum combined distance travelled is 13.36 + [delta].

To get to range 1 the minimum combined distance travelled is 15.86 + [delta].

 

After round 2 maneuvers:

  • The shuttle has moved forward a total of 4 (0 stop, then forward 2).
  • The front JumpMasters have moved forward a total of 12 (2x 4 forwards, which is 2*(4+2))

Therefore the total distance travelled, if the maneuvers had been executed properly, would have been 4 + 12 = 16. Depending on how far back the JumpMasters were initially placed from the range 1 edge (the [delta] number), and depending on how accurate the FFG mat is cut to a true 3' x 3', this might or might not have put the JumpMasters in range 1 of the shuttle. If the delta is only 0.03 as I estimated, then the minimum required distance travelled to get into R1 would be 15.89 for a full-sized mat. For a mat slightly smaller than 3' x 3' (as they usually are), then it would be slightly less. The total combined movement was 16, so for a 3' x 3' or smaller mat they absolutely should have been in range 1. As can be seen in the video, the player executes his front Jumpmaster maneuvers incorrectly by slightly sliding the 4 FWD template as he is moving the ship, so as a result the Jumpmasters and Shuttle end up just near the edge of range 1.

 

[edit]: They should have been in range 1 by about 0.1 small bases, which equals 0.4cm. The Scum player clearly did not execute his maneuver properly, and backed up his ships by roughly the same amount.

 

The Scum player could have dialed in a 3 FWD on turn 1 and still had room for the rear boat to clear, but by going 4 FWD (and executing it correctly) he will get a shot in round 1 if the shuttle goes 3 forward. In this case the travel distance would be 2+3 + 2+4 = 11 > 10.86 + [delta].

 

For round 2, it was noted that the Scum player could have gone less than 4 FWD with the front Jumpmasters. However, a 3 FWD is less likely to cause the Inquisitor to bump. The Scum player wanted his Jumpmasters as far forward as possible, without actually being in range 1 of the shuttle.

Edited by MajorJuggler

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When I first watched, good resolution but fairly small screen and at full speed, I thought it looked odd, but didn't see anything definitive.

 

The second time I watched, at 0.25 speed, good resolution, same small screen, I tried to pay attention to "starfield landmarks" and such, and I came away thinking he was just a very fast player, and was pretty sure there was no cheating.  (I posted on Reddit after this watch.)

 

The third time I watched, at top resolution on a big screen, at 0.25 speed, again I watched the starfield and the relative template placement very carefully.

 

Absolutely no doubt: on the front two ships, he deliberately displaced the template about 1/8" when placing the template/picking up the ship and another 1/8" when placing the ship/picking up the template.

 

Can I say for certain that the player cheated?  No.  But the highest standard of proof the US typically hold people to is "no reasonable doubt," and I have no reasonable doubt that he cheated.  And in an extremely slick and practiced way.  Genuinely impressive, IMO.

 

Sad, but impressive.

Edited by Jeff Wilder

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 Maybe you couldn't secure a conviction in a court of law, but so what? We have no reasonable doubt standard here because, you know, we're not going to throw him in prison or anything.

 

Well, if he is accused of cheating and FFG puts him on the list of banned players, in a very non-literal sense, you are. In this case, since his opponent didn't say anything, and no judge call was made at any time, FFG should say "Hey, we saw this well after the fact. It is very concerning to us. We'll be watching you closely at the official events you attend." and call it a day. Sure, he's probably cheating, but for the banned list to maintain any sort of credibility, you really need a stronger case.

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Didn't the lambda player toss his ship back and put it where he thought it belongs? Which was outside of range 1. I am in no way defending cheating, but L O L for a multi-forum witch trial I think we need a better case.

The perpetrator committed the crime. The victim erred when he knocked over his ship, then gave the cheater range two as per the rules and (misplaced) good faith. Those two acts are unrelated. One is intentional and obviously practiced cheating, the other is accidental. The latter does nothing to justify the cheating of the former.

Edited by Arttemis

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 Maybe you couldn't secure a conviction in a court of law, but so what? We have no reasonable doubt standard here because, you know, we're not going to throw him in prison or anything.

 

Well, if he is accused of cheating and FFG puts him on the list of banned players, in a very non-literal sense, you are. In this case, since his opponent didn't say anything, and no judge call was made at any time, FFG should say "Hey, we saw this well after the fact. It is very concerning to us. We'll be watching you closely at the official events you attend." and call it a day. Sure, he's probably cheating, but for the banned list to maintain any sort of credibility, you really need a stronger case.

 

 

Agreed. I'd feel really bad if he ended up on the ban list and was legitimately fast-playing, being sloppy for a moment in one game.. 

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Didn't the lambda player toss his ship back and put it where he thought it belongs? Which was outside of range 1. I am in no way defending cheating, but L O L for a multi-forum witch trial I think we need a better case.

The perpetrator committed the crime. The victim erred when he knocked over his ship, then gave the cheater range two as per the rules and (misplaced) good faith. Those two acts are unrelated. One is intentional and obviously practiced cheating, the other is accidental. The latter does nothing to justify the cheating of the former.

 

Looking at majorjuggler's numbers, he couldn't have been at range two. With that, the dude was cheating somehow. What  I was just saying, was that the nudge really f**** everything up since he replaced the bumped model out of range 1 on his own accord before range was officially declared.   

Edited by chervorlovesu

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This type of thing REALLY annoys me.

 

I am a dentist. Millimeters matter a great deal to me in my work. I have bumpers on my ships AND templates so they stick like glue. No one could ever accuse me of cheating. Sure mishaps still happen but not outright cheating.

 

This player is cheating. He knows what he is doing. He uses a clear "sweeping" motion as he drags the template and bases back.  Its so annoying. Why would someone cheat at a freaking miniature game.

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Man, this is the exact reason why I request my games are not recorded.  We have no idea what happened.  Maybe it is a practiced maneuver to gain him some breathing room or maybe it's nerves while reaching more than halfway across the table and blindly fitting the pips.  We don't know and a witch hunt isn't going to solve anything, nor is it healthy.

 

Stuff like this happens all the time.  Nerves, coffee, slippery playing surfaces, stretching at weird angles.  Games should not be recorded.  Have a judge sit at finalist tables and watch, otherwise leave this junk off the internet.

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This type of thing REALLY annoys me.

 

I am a dentist. Millimeters matter a great deal to me in my work. I have bumpers on my ships AND templates so they stick like glue. No one could ever accuse me of cheating. Sure mishaps still happen but not outright cheating.

 

This player is cheating. He knows what he is doing. He uses a clear "sweeping" motion as he drags the template and bases back.  Its so annoying. Why would someone cheat at a freaking miniature game.

 

Can you post pictures of your modified bases/templates, please? Sounds nifty!

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 Maybe you couldn't secure a conviction in a court of law, but so what? We have no reasonable doubt standard here because, you know, we're not going to throw him in prison or anything.

 

Well, if he is accused of cheating and FFG puts him on the list of banned players, in a very non-literal sense, you are. In this case, since his opponent didn't say anything, and no judge call was made at any time, FFG should say "Hey, we saw this well after the fact. It is very concerning to us. We'll be watching you closely at the official events you attend." and call it a day. Sure, he's probably cheating, but for the banned list to maintain any sort of credibility, you really need a stronger case.

 

It's clearly cheating, based simply on the video. However, as you said it was not brought up at the time and should probably be monitored at this point rather than a blanket ban. Maybe that would make him straighten up and play fairly.

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This type of thing REALLY annoys me.

 

I am a dentist. Millimeters matter a great deal to me in my work. I have bumpers on my ships AND templates so they stick like glue. No one could ever accuse me of cheating. Sure mishaps still happen but not outright cheating.

 

This player is cheating. He knows what he is doing. He uses a clear "sweeping" motion as he drags the template and bases back.  Its so annoying. Why would someone cheat at a freaking miniature game.

 

Can you post pictures of your modified bases/templates, please? Sounds nifty!

 

 

Yeah, I can take pics. I just have to remember... I actually just pieced the idea together from a few different threads on here.

 

1) I roughen the bottom/inside of the base with sandpaper

2) roughen 1/2 washer

3) epoxy washer to inside of base

4) glue bumpers into the "corners" that the washer doesn't contact.

 

These bumpers work perfect: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OYSTC1M/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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There's no doubt from me that it was malicious in intent. Watching more of the video, I get the sense that this guy feels like fudging his templates during maneuvers is A-OK and is fine at any point in the game, as he periodically shifts his ships during and post fight, yet he clearly is aware and capable of properly flying.

Boo. Poor form.

 

Hanlon's razor

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Makes me hope none of y'all are ever on a jury.

 

I'm a proud blleeding-heart liberal with a lawyer's deep suspicion of cops and a lawyer's inside knowledge of prosecutorial bull ... and if that video were the principal evidence in a criminal case for cheating, I would convict.  I would, and did, examine it closely.  He cheated.  No reasonable doubt.

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The lynchmob that forms here every time posts something about someone possibly cheating...

It's like "He sneezed!  That's cheating!  BAN HIM! REEEEEEEEEEEE!"

Makes me hope none of y'all are ever on a jury.

Oh it'll be all 12 angry men, and whatever they decide ill oppose it and turn them around out of sheer spite that the courts wasting my time, and is some innocent goes to jail it's a price I'm willing to pay.

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Makes me hope none of y'all are ever on a jury.

 

I'm a proud blleeding-heart liberal with a lawyer's deep suspicion of cops and a lawyer's inside knowledge of prosecutorial bull ... and if that video were the principal evidence in a criminal case for cheating, I would convict.  I would, and did, examine it closely.  He cheated.  No reasonable doubt.

 

 

That is without question. And for invaliding his tourney results that is absolutely fine. But claiming that he did it on purpose is a bold statement. Might be right, might be wrong. No point to it really. 

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