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Otakuon

A Bit Mixed On This...

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I don't have any issues with apps per-se.  They make sense when it comes to co-op games especially.  And the Descent App has been a boon even if it does remove many of the aspects of having an opposed player (namely, the tactical challenge of playing against a human rather than a scripted mechanism).  This same simplification will also be evident with MoM 2e.  But over all, having the app as an option never hurts.  I suppose one could argue that removing the Keeper entirely from MoM 2e and making it dependent 100% on the app does pose an issue with the longevity of the game.  For instance, I have board games in my collection that were made over 50 years ago (as in, from the 1960s) and they are still just as playable today as they were at the time they came out.  This will most likely not be the case with app-required games as who knows what sort of devices we will even be using in 50 years and if FFG will even be around for that long to continually update the app.  And given the inherently short lifespan of modern electronics, I don't think keeping an iPad around "forever" just to use these apps is a realistic expectation.

 

That being said, I will enjoy the apps while I can, but at least with Descent, I know that even if FFG crashes and burns and I am no longer able to use the app, I can still play it the "old fashioned" way.  So in the case of MoM 2e, the fact that it requires an app to play (while 1e did not) is a legitimate concern.

Edited by Otakuon

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I can't state enough how the inclusion of the conversion kit removes any and all salt I would of had about this.

 

Somebody else mentioned, the cost is about 6 PoD scenarios, which in this case come with a bunch of minis, 8 investigators, and automated keeper.

That's fantastic.

 

This is exactly the kind of game that will get a LOT of replay in my group and thus we can easily justify the price.

 

Assuming the quality is there, we'll be all in for all new PoDs (which will be 100% in app transactions I assume) and boxed expansions.

 

Just like we're all in on Eldritch Horror.

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The biggest hang up for me with a game like this is being beholden to the app. I'll never be able to break out this game like I can others and just play with the contents of the box without also then needing the app and if for some reason there's an electronic issue of any kind, I'm just left with game components but no purpose.

If anything the app should be supplemental like with Descent. As it is, I don't know if five, ten, twenty years down the line the app will still be around or maintained for me to use with this. Meanwhile, I can play Descent forever.

 

My friend, MoM 1st edition was never a game I just broke out on a whim.  I always set it up the night before.

 

So due to that factor being beholden to an app doesn't bother me a bit. 

 

As for how long it will be available, yeah that's a legit fear, but the .exe version you can get should work for a very long time to come, and who doesn't have a random Windows or Mac laptop laying around, at least if you're from my generation.

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App longevity is not an issue.

Download the app, use ex-fileexplorer to make a backup, shove it on a disc and put it in your box.

There will always be ways to play the app. Can you still play space invaders, the original, after all these years?? Yes.

Look at defunct systems, there are emulators for C64, spectrum, atari, nintendo64, snes, gameboy, gamegear, jaguar, amiga, neogeo, nds, bbc, vic-20, jama arcade machines (mame) and the list goes on... these emulators are available to run across systems, PCs, macs, i-os, android pretty much all encompassing.

I can choose an age old game, download its rom and the appropriate emulators and play it on my pc, tablet and phone. That is play the original, not a port, not a conversion, not a re release.

There will always be ways to play the app.

If the app stops being supported, its 99% sure it will coincide with releasing the last available expansion, so thats not an issue either.

The only issue here is whether you WANT to play using an app and if you dont, then dont buy it.

I do, Ill buy it.

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Yes, I am sure that FFG will monetize the app by releasing IAP in the form of new scenario packs.  What price points those will be, we don't know yet.  Road to Legend's first campaign was to cost $10 before FFG made it free, but the expectation is that any future campaigns will be set at that price point.  One thing to keep in mind is that it is much more common for physical items to be found on discounted sale while digital items have a tendency to stay at their original prices for long past their release date.  In the case of MoM, it was very common to find the PoD packs at retailers for $5 on clearance.  

 

While we are on the subject of price, I checked my order history and I paid $55 for MoM 1e when it came out.  The same retailer where I bought it currently has MoM 2e listed for $85.  Even with inflation taken into account, that is still $20 more than the previous game.  Most publishers, FFG included, view the base apps as a loss leader and expect to recoup their costs via future IAP sales.  So I still don't see how a $20 price increase can be justified by the app alone.  Oh well, just wait a month or two after release and Amazon will have it for 25% off since they are not beholden to ANA/FFG's price manipulation scheme.

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The biggest hang up for me with a game like this is being beholden to the app. I'll never be able to break out this game like I can others and just play with the contents of the box without also then needing the app and if for some reason there's an electronic issue of any kind, I'm just left with game components but no purpose.

If anything the app should be supplemental like with Descent. 

 

My first reaction was exactly this.  I have so far mostly avoided games with mandatory digital or audio components (Space Alert, for example).  However, after playing Escape with its mandatory CD (I don't have a handy CD player for it) and the app for Descent 2 (I must use an android emulator since I don't have a personal cell phone I can use) and having a fabulous experience with both, I am now willing to try this with MoM2E.

 

I've also worried about the lifespan of a game once the app is no longer supported, but the reality is that nothing lasts forever.  if I spend 100 bucks on this and play it fairly regularly for 10 years, I will consider that I've got my money's worth.  Even playing 10 games at 100 bucks is a great deal IMHO.  At 2 hours a game that's like 5 bucks an hour.  I do lots of other things for entertainment that cost more than that. 

 

Incidentally, that is how I measure the value of the games in my collection and decide to buy expansions or not.  I buy expansions for the games I play the most and enjoy the most, and that my friends enjoy the most, not the games that have the most pieces in the box or the lowest price.

Edited by Jeffrey Paul

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I'm just hoping we haven't seen the big monster reveal yet.  Imperial Assault was also $100, but it came with an AT-ST!

 

1st Edition came with Shoggoths and Cthonions.  So far the only large monster we've seen has been a possible Star Spawn, and a weak-looking one at that.  I have a complete set of 1st Edition, so I've got monsters, maps, and investigators aplenty.  But for someone who's just buying in now, this really lacks a certain "wow" factor.  Especially since so many of the minis in this box look to be reprints of old Arkham Horror minis.  And comparing those sculpts to what they're currently doing with Descent 2nd Edition is quite a letdown.

 

Fantasy Flight can and does make great minis.  But their Cthulhu stuff seems to be relying pretty heavily on reusing old assets.  That now includes returning customers.  I don't see much here to bring in new blood, especially considering the conversion kit being included whether you have parts for it or not.  

 

Hopefully they're about to follow this box with a line similar to Descent's Hero and Monster Packs.  But right now I have a hard time recommending this to newcomers. 

Edited by Radioactivepanda

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Inflation happens. Materials costs go up. You're always going to get less for the same amount of money every year.

Deflation happens. Material or producing costs go down. You get more for the same amount of money every year.

Is also happening if there is a high demand for a product. If demand isn't high it's commonly the best idea to produce less and charge a higher price.

So the high price could mean that we are consuming niche products which haven't a high demand. So it's necessary (and more secure) for ffg to expand the market share. Trying it with this version of MoM is a brave idea. But they have to sell it on a save level since MoM is the first big boardgame transformation I know which is completely depending on electricity AND a supporting product.

If they aren't selling enough products (that might happen on the German market since there is no stable demand for digital-analog games) they will suffer in form of a loss or a unworthy profit.

So it's better to charge a high price and reduce production costs.

Problems arising:

If tbe demand is high, ffg will produce more of this and may set high prices (since they are monopolists)

If the demand is low, ffg will either try to shape the price down or stop the production of such games.

If the demand is okay, it's not clear what ffg will do.

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As always Julia is RIGHT

Firstly about app price saying a console game (you dirty peasant) costs more is silly as most console games have a much larger audience than MoM2 will do even if it does exceptionally well. Basic economics if I have a smaller number of buyers I will need to charge more each.

Secondly I am very excited for the minis for my games of Arkham

Thirdly I know its controversial but FFG are allowed to make money.....

Super excited for this as MoM is the only game my wife ever liked .......

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Radioactivepanda,

 

actually the MoM 2nd edition box includes all the monster minis that were never released for Arkham Horror and that many collectors were hunting.

 

 

I did not realize that.  I was never that impressed with a lot of the Arkham monsters, so I never hunted any of them down, but I will definitely give them points for completing that set.

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My problem with this is

1. The app

2. If it's just a rehashing with an app

So when apps started coming I bought Alchemists. Turns out I'm not a fan.

- If I wanted to play a video game I would.

- it needs to be downloaded and since space is an issue on my ipad I only keep the apps on it that is in weekly use, this would not be, so I would always have to download it before a game.

- It adds an not-included-in-the-box component that is required to play, so I can't leave it at my cabin because if I forget my ipad (that I don't normally bring since there is no internet service) I can't download it on the go on my phone (crappy service out there).

- This will mean less physical expansions, more digital

- We really loved playing as the evil that lurkes, messing with the other players.

I'm not totally anti apo. Descent 2.edt was hard to get to the table. Trying to learn it by playing was a nightmare. Trying to teach it to new players while playing the bad guy was worse. The co-op expansions helped in both regards, and I see how the app is an easier way to distribute such small expansions, but it's not essential to play the game. (Disclaimer, I have dl the descent app, but not tried it).

So far I don't see any reason why this should warrant a purchase from me. I love MoM and it's one of my top 3 most played games. This just seems like the same game, with some tweaks and an app. They probably simplified it too, making it less interesting. But then I like AH over EH....

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Lastly: plastic. The cost of plastic and minis keeps going up. FFG have always opted to not raise the price of reprints of existing games, so the older the game, the better 'value' you get in terms of minis. MoM is one of the oldest games with minis in the catalogue, and even then the MSRP was $80, not $60 as you suggest. This edition has the same number of minis, which make up the bulk of the cost, so $100 with increased plastic prices seems reasonable.

 

The way to do a $60 version of this would be to go all cardboard, which just wouldn't be as much fun.

 

 

Plastic costs pennies. If the game isn't just as fun with cardboard, the game design is flawed. Plastic minis are bells and whistles, they don't change the fun value of a game one whit.

Edited by cheeseburglar

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You people seem to fixate too much on few (and rarely relevant) downsides the app brigns while ignroing all the awesome upsides. 

This is the place for ff specific hopes, concerns, needs, worries, etc. isn't it? Positive posts and points are also made. If someone *only* has something positive to say, there's little reason to do it here, we can talk to our gaming group and other friends about it.

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App longevity is not an issue.

Download the app, use ex-fileexplorer to make a backup, shove it on a disc and put it in your box.

There will always be ways to play the app. Can you still play space invaders, the original, after all these years?? Yes.

Look at defunct systems, there are emulators for C64, spectrum, atari, nintendo64, snes, gameboy, gamegear, jaguar, amiga, neogeo, nds, bbc, vic-20, jama arcade machines (mame) and the list goes on... these emulators are available to run across systems, PCs, macs, i-os, android pretty much all encompassing.

I can choose an age old game, download its rom and the appropriate emulators and play it on my pc, tablet and phone. That is play the original, not a port, not a conversion, not a re release.

There will always be ways to play the app.

If the app stops being supported, its 99% sure it will coincide with releasing the last available expansion, so thats not an issue either.

The only issue here is whether you WANT to play using an app and if you dont, then dont buy it.

I do, Ill buy it.

You can play space invaders because it was the most popular video game in it's time and it's still one of the first - it's promulgated to almost every platform existing. Mansions of Madness second edition app will never enjoy that level of popularity.

 

There are tons of emulators and they in no way work with every piece of software that run natively on those processors/systems. Many pieces of software just won't run with emulators. I've addressed this in a separate thread, but to assume its as easy as having a current system, that runs an updated emulator, than actually runs all your particular favorite apps for that platform (because you probably won't setup an emulator on a machine simply to run one app), is not really a workable solution for the average board game player.

 

Not saying in no way can this be done of course, just that it's very iffy, for those technically inclined, and not at a simple, always-working solution. If you tie a board game to an app, in most cases the way hardware and compatible OSes update, you're looking ahead to a few design cycles for longevity, often quite short of a decade. After this time many willl be left with a box of useless components unless the game ships with an app-less play method. It's a legitimate concern.

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App longevity is not an issue.

Download the app, use ex-fileexplorer to make a backup, shove it on a disc and put it in your box.

There will always be ways to play the app. Can you still play space invaders, the original, after all these years?? Yes.

Look at defunct systems, there are emulators for C64, spectrum, atari, nintendo64, snes, gameboy, gamegear, jaguar, amiga, neogeo, nds, bbc, vic-20, jama arcade machines (mame) and the list goes on... these emulators are available to run across systems, PCs, macs, i-os, android pretty much all encompassing.

I can choose an age old game, download its rom and the appropriate emulators and play it on my pc, tablet and phone. That is play the original, not a port, not a conversion, not a re release.

There will always be ways to play the app.

If the app stops being supported, its 99% sure it will coincide with releasing the last available expansion, so thats not an issue either.

The only issue here is whether you WANT to play using an app and if you dont, then dont buy it.

I do, Ill buy it.

You can play space invaders because it was the most popular video game in it's time and it's still one of the first - it's promulgated to almost every platform existing. Mansions of Madness second edition app will never enjoy that level of popularity.

 

There are tons of emulators and they in no way work with every piece of software that run natively on those processors/systems. Many pieces of software just won't run with emulators. I've addressed this in a separate thread, but to assume its as easy as having a current system, that runs an updated emulator, than actually runs all your particular favorite apps for that platform (because you probably won't setup an emulator on a machine simply to run one app), is not really a workable solution for the average board game player.

 

Not saying in no way can this be done of course, just that it's very iffy, for those technically inclined, and not at a simple, always-working solution. If you tie a board game to an app, in most cases the way hardware and compatible OSes update, you're looking ahead to a few design cycles for longevity, often quite short of a decade. After this time many willl be left with a box of useless components unless the game ships with an app-less play method. It's a legitimate concern.

Sorry but no.

Space Invaders was just an example picked because of age, pick any considerably less popular arcade game and it is still available on the MAME system.

Im not very tech savy but am a bit of a fan of the older games and equipmemt I had as a youth.

I have emulators for eveything Ive owned, this being Vic20, C64, Amiga600, Sega Game Gear, Gameboy, GBA and NDS as well as every (no exceptions) game that I own for those systems in rom format. I also have the MAME emulator with a large folder of roms.

True some need settings tweaking to work fully but not many and not complex settings.

I have emulators for PC, Kindle and Android for all of the above and all work.

Im 41 and as I sit here now I know I can play and video game Ive ever owned through my life on my PC in the corner with the info on its hard drive. This even includes a couple of obscure games on the Amiga that came from free cover discs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I cannot see this as a problem.

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People who use emulators are a tiny minority of video gamers.

Most people see that only 100 Xbox 360 games work and wonder how many of their current apps/games will work on the next generation.

It is a barrier to some people and a valid concern.

I fully expect a non-app variant to appear on BGG after a while.

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You people seem to fixate too much on few (and rarely relevant) downsides the app brigns while ignroing all the awesome upsides. 

This is the place for ff specific hopes, concerns, needs, worries, etc. isn't it? Positive posts and points are also made. If someone *only* has something positive to say, there's little reason to do it here, we can talk to our gaming group and other friends about it.

And how any of this has anything to do with what I wrote?

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Lastly: plastic. The cost of plastic and minis keeps going up. FFG have always opted to not raise the price of reprints of existing games, so the older the game, the better 'value' you get in terms of minis. MoM is one of the oldest games with minis in the catalogue, and even then the MSRP was $80, not $60 as you suggest. This edition has the same number of minis, which make up the bulk of the cost, so $100 with increased plastic prices seems reasonable.

 

The way to do a $60 version of this would be to go all cardboard, which just wouldn't be as much fun.

Plastic costs pennies. If the game isn't just as fun with cardboard, the game design is flawed. Plastic minis are bells and whistles, they don't change the fun value of a game one whit.

Minis don't cost pennies, the actual materials might be but the finished product isn't.

Minis for a game based around heavy emersion add a lot to the game, you are welcome to your opinion but for many its the reason they buy

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People who use emulators are a tiny minority of video gamers.

Most people see that only 100 Xbox 360 games work and wonder how many of their current apps/games will work on the next generation.

It is a barrier to some people and a valid concern.

I fully expect a non-app variant to appear on BGG after a while.

People who print variants off of BGG are a tiny minority of board gamers.

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