Tie/SF the imperials have a knife fighter!

[Firespray-32 5,424]

Give me an example of a knife fighter. If you use the B-Wing as an example, explain to me why the T-65 isn't also one.

 

High positional capability at short range with a high resistance to blocking, ideally not in a pilot skill dependent way. The B-wing does this with a full range 1 speed moves, the K2, Barrel Roll and Advanced Sensors. The Advanced Sensors Barrel Roll combo is essential to it. The TIE/sf can also do this.

 

The T-65 can't premaneuver reposition so it's fairly easy to block. It also lacks short 180 flip maneuvers and 1-hards.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Blue Five

[Polda 4,141]

 

Give me an example of a knife fighter. If you use the B-Wing as an example, explain to me why the T-65 isn't also one.

 

High positional capability at short range with a high resistance to blocking, ideally not in a pilot skill dependent way. The B-wing does this with a full range 1 speed moves, the K2, Barrel Roll and Advanced Sensors. The Advanced Sensors Barrel Roll combo is essential to it. The TIE/sf can also do this.

 

The T-65 can't premaneuver reposition so it's fairly easy to block. It also lacks short 180 flip maneuvers and 1-hards.

 

 

Even T-70 could be consider a knife fighter since it gets a Tallon Roll that let's you turn 180° without moving too far from the furball you want to shoot into. Hell, with Ello you can even boost in to where you started.   

The T-60 doesn't have that option...

Edit: ...HOWEVER most "knife-fighters" in X-Wing are much more flexible than just that.

There are few ships for which "knife fighter" is the only matching definition (TIE/LN, TIE/FO, maybe A-Wings)

If we're talking short turns in combo with advanced sensors or other similar kit (Sabine, BB-8), a bunch of ships can become it that can also be sniping at long range or work at medium.

It's a pointless definition to give the TIE/SF.

 

Can it knife-fight if build to do so? Yes. End of discussion.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Polda

[Magnus Grendel 10,573]

Unlike the t-70 the cog has no AT or IA to boost its survivability, no astromech to give it regen it's just not going to live long on two greens.

 

True - but the 'next gen' fighters are tougher than you might think. Sensor Clusters is a really good ability, which makes you nearly twice as likely to get two evades off two dice as you are with a focus token alone. Granted, a T-70 can be equipped with sensor clusters, too, but even a Blue Squadron Novice can't take it and still fit within the magic 25 point "'fit in four ships' boundary.

 

Theoretically, if you really wanted to focus on durability, you could also consider a Sensor Jammer.

 

Quickdraw is, as noted, kind of expensive to be equipped as a 'disposable' character. To be honest, Backlash is probably the more interesting pilot (other than the Zeta Specialist).

[Hobojebus 11,341]

I faced t-70's just the other week with my x7's I didn't lose a single shield but wiped out ello asty and red ace easily, plus a couple of headhunters.

 

Poes a tougher nut to crack but any other t-70 is not that hard to kill.

[Firespray-32 5,424]

 

 

Give me an example of a knife fighter. If you use the B-Wing as an example, explain to me why the T-65 isn't also one.

 

High positional capability at short range with a high resistance to blocking, ideally not in a pilot skill dependent way. The B-wing does this with a full range 1 speed moves, the K2, Barrel Roll and Advanced Sensors. The Advanced Sensors Barrel Roll combo is essential to it. The TIE/sf can also do this.

 

The T-65 can't premaneuver reposition so it's fairly easy to block. It also lacks short 180 flip maneuvers and 1-hards.

 

 

Even T-70 could be consider a knife fighter since it gets a Tallon Roll that let's you turn 180° without moving too far from the furball you want to shoot into. Hell, with Ello you can even boost in to where you started.   

The T-60 doesn't have that option...

Edit: ...HOWEVER most "knife-fighters" in X-Wing are much more flexible than just that.

There are few ships for which "knife fighter" is the only matching definition (TIE/LN, TIE/FO, maybe A-Wings)

If we're talking short turns in combo with advanced sensors or other similar kit (Sabine, BB-8), a bunch of ships can become it that can also be sniping at long range or work at medium.

It's a pointless definition to give the TIE/SF.

 

Can it knife-fight if build to do so? Yes. End of discussion.

 

BB-8 limits your initial maneuver too much for short range, A-wings are too fast, TIE/ln and TIE/fo are borderline: they only have post maneuver repositioning and thus lack the blocking resistance.

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

sensors won't be very good on this guy

 

6 health, 2 agility is fragile and even the T-70 gets to augment it with IA or thrusters while the Tie/SF does not. so, you gotta endeavor to keep it as cheap as possible

 

sensors also does not have the action efficiency of bb-8 which can take two actions (roll + normal action) or three (roll + ptl + normal action) to sensor's 1 less (skip your "perform action step")

 

the expenses involved + the ship's fragile nature are not going to make it a great combo

 

the Tie/SF is going to live and die based on how you fly it, far moreso than token stacking palp aces

 

either you are a Wizard at using the aux arc to fire while keeping opponents off of you, ala "Backdraft" (VI and FCS), or you just ruin their **** before they ruin yours, ala "Quickdraw"

Edited July 19, 2016 by ficklegreendice

[Magnus Grendel 10,573]

the Tie/SF is going to live and day based on how you fly it

 

Which to my mind is a very good thing....

 

And with 'keep it as cheap as possible', it may be worth thinking about the Zeta Specialist as the First Order's B-Wing, rather than fixating on the aces.

 

Zeta Specialist lacks an Elite Pilot Talent, but one assumes the (as yet unspoiled) Omega Specialist doesn't - that may be worth the odd thought, too.

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

 

the Tie/SF is going to live and day based on how you fly it

 

Which to my mind is a very good thing....

 

And with 'keep it as cheap as possible', it may be worth thinking about the Zeta Specialist as the First Order's B-Wing, rather than fixating on the aces.

 

Zeta Specialist lacks an Elite Pilot Talent, but one assumes the (as yet unspoiled) Omega Specialist doesn't - that may be worth the odd thought, too.

 

 

my selective dyslexia has been immortalized up there

 

 

but if you squint at preview image, you can just barely make out the beginnings of an upgrade icon on Omega right in the same spot as Backdraft or Quickdraw's ept

 

so it should come with one

 

problem is it comes in at 25 points at least (could be more, remember how ffg ****** over the poor baron )

 

 

 

as for ZS being the FO B-wing...well, poor b-wings don't do much nowadays.

 

 

"Backdraft" has a draw in that he's stupidly cost efficient relative to other aux arcs (just the firespray I guess), while Quickdraw has a (quick) draw in her attacking during her activation (e-baffle) and, more reliably, double tapping with rage baffle for an effective better-than-cluster-missiles at ps 9

Edited July 19, 2016 by ficklegreendice

[GrimmyV 7,421]

Agility 3 = ungodly defensive capability

Agility 2 = tissue paper fragility

What's wrong with this picture?

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

Agility 3 = ungodly defensive capability

Agility 2 = tissue paper fragility

What's wrong with this picture?

That you think green dice have anything to do with it

As opposed to x7 + white 4k for constant token stacking

And ptl focus + evade + thrusters with probably palp

Edited July 19, 2016 by ficklegreendice

[Knucklesamwich 802]

Ability to fly > dice.

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

Ability to fly > dice.

Not really. If you're flying Palp Aces you can fly your Acewings recklessly and put them in spots where any normal ship would be in trouble and they'll be unscathed.

Game ruining hyper damage mitigation > good flying > dice.

Edited July 19, 2016 by ParaGoomba Slayer

[Knucklesamwich 802]

The guy took over an entire galaxy, I think he's just right.

[juxstapo 239]

The guy took over an entire galaxy, I think he's just right.

I...... .huh, y'know... perhaps

[GrimmyV 7,421]

Agility 3 = ungodly defensive capability

Agility 2 = tissue paper fragility

What's wrong with this picture?

That you think green dice have anything to do with it

As opposed to x7 + white 4k for constant token stacking

And ptl focus + evade + thrusters with probably palp

Banking evade with com relay and probably palp isn't good enough for /SF?

Also I was trying to figure out why people were saying any ship with 2 Agi sucked. I don't rely on green dice so I don't get all the fuss.

Edited July 19, 2016 by GrimmyV

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

 

 

Agility 3 = ungodly defensive capability

Agility 2 = tissue paper fragility

What's wrong with this picture?

That you think green dice have anything to do with it

As opposed to x7 + white 4k for constant token stacking

And ptl focus + evade + thrusters with probably palp

Banking evade with com relay and probably palp isn't good enough for /SF?

Also I was trying to figure out why people were saying any ship with 2 Agi sucked. I don't rely on green dice so I don't get all the fuss.

 

 

it might be

 

if it could evade...

[Knucklesamwich 802]

Agility 3 = ungodly defensive capability

Agility 2 = tissue paper fragility

What's wrong with this picture?

That you think green dice have anything to do with it

As opposed to x7 + white 4k for constant token stacking

And ptl focus + evade + thrusters with probably palp

Banking evade with com relay and probably palp isn't good enough for /SF?

Also I was trying to figure out why people were saying any ship with 2 Agi sucked. I don't rely on green dice so I don't get all the fuss.

 

it might be

 

if it could evade...

Oh if it could evade oh MAN I wish it could EVADE!

[Vineheart01 6,403]

Imps have no way to assign evades to other ships, and the SF has no way to get it himself. Comm Relay is useless.

 

Also, palpaces arent so immortal you can fly them like an idiot and still win. Yes, soontir can turn a 3blank focus into 3/4 evades depending on autos proc'd or not, but he cant do that more than once. Ive faced a few people who have that mentality that if they fly palpaces they can win no matter what and they attempt to joust me and i just utterly spank them for it. First ship, no damage cause palp + evade + focus. Second ship, light damage because stealth device still around. Third ship either finishes Soontir or brings him to 1hp, which sends him packing.

Also no palp for offense. Sooo many times i have palp'd for defense and utterly flopped my offense.

[GrimmyV 7,421]

(looks at the action bar)

WHY THE GONK DOESNT IT HAVE EVADE ?!!!????)?!!!!

[Sanguinary Dan 468]

SO basically if you can't stack tokens, use Palp and have base 3 green you may as well go home? 

 

Glad to know that X-Wing is a dead game.    

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

more like "if you can't stack tokens, use palp and have base 3 green, don't delude yourself into thinking you're durable"

 

adjust accordingly

 

go suicidally offensive (baffled rage) or do your darndest to just not get shot (PS 9 Backdraft)

Edited July 19, 2016 by ficklegreendice

[Knucklesamwich 802]

I do realize that there is a difference between 3 green and two green. A big difference some times but I have never felt that two greens was suck city. With a very few exceptions Most effective attackers in the game fall into the three attack dice sweet spot we all know that so two greens are going to take hits. If you have even a bit of luck with greens you can be pretty durable with two greens and if you have a bad game throwing greens then most two dice ships have enough hits to take a bad round or two. I can't count the number of times some stupid two dice Z-95 has wrecked my plans by NOT DYING due to those two dice. I guess its the "all ships must dominate" mentality that most people have that won't let them move out of their "meta or die" rut. Hear that FFG! Three dicers or bust!!!!

[Marinealver 8,068]

Yes. The Imperials DO have a knife-fighter. It's called the TIE Advanced Prototype.

 

Not really, the TIE advanced is too fast and pilots like Vader don't like furballs and bumps as it kills his doubile actions.

 

But yeas the TIE SF is almost comparable to the B-wing in terms of Furball brawls back in the days of Wave 3 where traffic jams and bumping into a ship that bumped with a nother set of bumping ships was the meta. With advanced Sensors like the B-wing the TIS-SF will be able to take actions even in a in-your-face furball brawl where a bunch of ships are clustered together.

 

However there are two question to ask.

1. Does the meta allow for furball matches
2. How does it compare to the B-wing the current brawler?

Now for question 1 it seems that FFG is trying to move the meta from Ace-wing back into jousting and almost swarm like meta. So it is possible but as for if the TIE-SF was dropped into the meta currently with the dial and everything else that we know so far it wouldn't last or at least not in a role as a knife fighter/brawler because it won't see those fights. (Much like an anti-tank sniper in 40K).

 

As for question 2 that is tricky. It may have the s-loops in place of a K-turn but those S-loops are a large 3 speed. The B-wing might be better off with its 2 K turn. Also the non-unique B-wings are at skill 2 & 4 where as the TIE-SF is at a high 3 & 5 with the 5 may having an EPT. That makes the B-wing the better blocker. Yet the title is an auto-include which puts the firepower on par with the B-wing. The ability to make a split attack from the rear arc (Sorry Omicron Group) might give it some flexibility and even compensate for the rather restrictive reversal maneuvers but I don't think it will be making that much use of the aux arc in a furbal. Also not much health even for 1 more agility might make its endurance less than the B-wing.

 

So yeah the TIE-SF can be a real brawler much like the B-wing, It may pack some dirty tricks with the tech slot and rear arc but I think the B-wing will still have the bigger fists. now as will the furball traffic jams of the Wave 3 meta ever make a comeback? That is still to be determined.

[Goseki1 637]

 

If I could make it play some Ennio Morricone when I put a focus token on the base the I would. 

This is amazing. Good job man!

[Knucklesamwich 802]

Yes. The Imperials DO have a knife-fighter. It's called the TIE Advanced Prototype.

 

Not really, the TIE advanced is too fast and pilots like Vader don't like furballs and bumps as it kills his doubile actions.

 

But yeas the TIE SF is almost comparable to the B-wing in terms of Furball brawls back in the days of Wave 3 where traffic jams and bumping into a ship that bumped with a nother set of bumping ships was the meta. With advanced Sensors like the B-wing the TIS-SF will be able to take actions even in a in-your-face furball brawl where a bunch of ships are clustered together.

 

However there are two question to ask.

• Does the meta allow for furball matches
• How does it compare to the B-wing the current brawler?

Now for question 1 it seems that FFG is trying to move the meta from Ace-wing back into jousting and almost swarm like meta. So it is possible but as for if the TIE-SF was dropped into the meta currently with the dial and everything else that we know so far it wouldn't last or at least not in a role as a knife fighter/brawler because it won't see those fights. (Much like an anti-tank sniper in 40K).

 

As for question 2 that is tricky. It may have the s-loops in place of a K-turn but those S-loops are a large 3 speed. The B-wing might be better off with its 2 K turn. Also the non-unique B-wings are at skill 2 & 4 where as the TIE-SF is at a high 3 & 5 with the 5 may having an EPT. That makes the B-wing the better blocker. Yet the title is an auto-include which puts the firepower on par with the B-wing. The ability to make a split attack from the rear arc (Sorry Omicron Group) might give it some flexibility and even compensate for the rather restrictive reversal maneuvers but I don't think it will be making that much use of the aux arc in a furbal. Also not much health even for 1 more agility might make its endurance less than the B-wing.

 

So yeah the TIE-SF can be a real brawler much like the B-wing, It may pack some dirty tricks with the tech slot and rear arc but I think the B-wing will still have the bigger fists. now as will the furball traffic jams of the Wave 3 meta ever make a comeback? That is still to be determined.

With the advent of crack swarms we may see some revival of the big furballs of old. I agree the B-Wing has more potential as a blocker but the options that two arcs give makes the SF a better fighter up close since it will be much harder to block two arcs.