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Norell

Isn't Rouges and Villains overpowered?

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I'm looking at the fleet builds, the contents of the expansion (I didn't buy it yet), and I watch AARs and I have a feeling that this expansion is just too powerful. Basically smugglers and bounty hunters replace fighter squadrons in most of the builds and they have very strong abilities to build upon making them far superior over starfighters. People say that Demolisher is OP but as I see, this expansion seems far worse. And frankly, it is disappointing to see an Imperial fleet with Firesprays instead of TIEs or the Republic with YTs instead of X-Wings and A-Wings...

Do I miss something?

Edited by Norell

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Try this,

 

GR75 Medium Transports +18

-Expanded Hangers +5

 

3x X-Wing +39

Jan Ors +19

 

Only 83 Points, gives you three drops, is easy to activate, can eat rogues before they activate, and give you a decent objective ship for missions like Intel Sweep (season upgrades to taste like Bright Hope...)

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A well placed squadron command is going to be extremely effective against the Rogues and Villains, because you force the R&V to react to the fighters. Granted, you can activate the R&V with a squadron command as well, but you're paying a premium to do that

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Wait? Dare they Overpowered though. . . I don't hint I have seen that just yet. Sure they change a few design aspects in lists bit I have yet to take a scuurg over a B-Wing (with Flight Coordination Team 9n the horizon that will likely be the rise of B-Wings). The Firespray sees some use but not much, the YT2400's are the more prevalent I think while I love the YT 1300's

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I assume you're talking about the rogue keyword specifically? 

 

Definitely not overpowered.  Certainly they're easier to use, but you pay for that convenience.  Compare the Firespray to two TIE Bombers.  Both cost 18 points, but every advantage is with the TIE Bombers:  you have almost twice as much total hull (10 vs 6), deal more average anti-ship damage (2 vs 1.5), the same anti-squadron damage over more attacks (1.5 over 2 attacks vs 1.5/1), one more speed (4 vs 3), and half a deployment.  The only two advantages you get with the FS are 1) losing heavy, and 2) gaining rogue.

All other things being equal, point-for-point, activated vanilla squadrons spank rogues.  The niche of rogues is their ability to fly with lightweight ships that aren't activating them and retain most of their power, whereas vanilla squadrons are dramatically diminished without activations.

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I assume you're talking about the rogue keyword specifically? 

 

Definitely not overpowered.  Certainly they're easier to use, but you pay for that convenience.  Compare the Firespray to two TIE Bombers.  Both cost 18 points, but every advantage is with the TIE Bombers:  you have almost twice as much total hull (10 vs 6), deal more average anti-ship damage (2 vs 1.5), the same anti-squadron damage over more attacks (1.5 over 2 attacks vs 1.5/1), one more speed (4 vs 3), and half a deployment.  The only two advantages you get with the FS are 1) losing heavy, and 2) gaining rogue.

All other things being equal, point-for-point, activated vanilla squadrons spank rogues.  The niche of rogues is their ability to fly with lightweight ships that aren't activating them and retain most of their power, whereas vanilla squadrons are dramatically diminished without activations.

 

Spanking is the keyword here: spank them with your non-rogues before they can activate...at the very least you'll force you opponent to use squad commands on his already expensive rogues, just to avoid moving them too late in the round.

 

And Dutch. That guy simply loves rogues.

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Try this,

 

GR75 Medium Transports +18

-Expanded Hangers +5

 

3x X-Wing +39

Jan Ors +19

 

Only 83 Points, gives you three drops, is easy to activate, can eat rogues before they activate, and give you a decent objective ship for missions like Intel Sweep (season upgrades to taste like Bright Hope...)

Interesting advice seeing as Jan Ors is from R and V

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I assume you're talking about the rogue keyword specifically? 

 

Definitely not overpowered.  Certainly they're easier to use, but you pay for that convenience.  Compare the Firespray to two TIE Bombers.  Both cost 18 points, but every advantage is with the TIE Bombers:  you have almost twice as much total hull (10 vs 6), deal more average anti-ship damage (2 vs 1.5), the same anti-squadron damage over more attacks (1.5 over 2 attacks vs 1.5/1), one more speed (4 vs 3), and half a deployment.  The only two advantages you get with the FS are 1) losing heavy, and 2) gaining rogue.

All other things being equal, point-for-point, activated vanilla squadrons spank rogues.  The niche of rogues is their ability to fly with lightweight ships that aren't activating them and retain most of their power, whereas vanilla squadrons are dramatically diminished without activations.

 

Spanking is the keyword here: spank them with your non-rogues before they can activate...at the very least you'll force you opponent to use squad commands on his already expensive rogues, just to avoid moving them too late in the round.

 

And Dutch. That guy simply loves rogues.

 

God **** I hate Dutch.

 

recently I brought tough old Bossk in a list and got to use him like 1 time before he died thanks to dutch

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I think Flotilla's will change peoples minds about this. Right now the cost to activate squadrons is pretty high. One of the basic options for each faction is a very cheap 30 odd point 4 squadron activator. Its pretty easy to see at that point bringing some squadrons. 

 

My Gozanti plan is 6 Ties with Howlrunner and M&M, and at 116 points, I think it would easily defeat the common things out there currently. Like Rhymerballs, or 8 Yt2400.

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I am not sure if they are over powerful or that the basic TiE fighter/Interceptor just suck so bad (I am looking at you three health). Now if you have the amazing rolls that some people talk about this would change (I have seen people say that you can one shot an X-wing with an Interceptor every time).

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I am not sure if they are over powerful or that the basic TiE fighter/Interceptor just suck so bad (I am looking at you three health). Now if you have the amazing rolls that some people talk about this would change (I have seen people say that you can one shot an X-wing with an Interceptor every time).

Lol

An interceptor with howl, swarm and flight controllers can one shot an Awing roughly 50% of the time.

So not quite that ridiculous.

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As has been said, commanded squadrons dominate Rogues because of activation timing. Rogues just give flexibility. The YT-2400 spam of nationals can be, and has been, torn apart by dedicated anti-fighter balls (especially the Imperial variety). Dutch and Wedge with Yavaris is my personal favorite way to mess with Rogues. Wave 1 squadrons still very much have their place.

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The part of the OP's post I whole-heartedly agree with is this

 

Basically smugglers and bounty hunters replace fighter squadrons in most of the builds... And frankly, it is disappointing to see an Imperial fleet with Firesprays instead of TIEs or the Republic with YTs instead of X-Wings and A-Wings...

 

 

In reality we've not seen the massive switch over to firesprays that people anticipated when the expansion was announced (mainly because ryhmer bombers are just too darn efficient!), but there are still a lot of fleets where R/V squadrons that are not recognisable to the general public are taking the places of the classics everyone knows and loves.

 

I'm as guilty of this as anyone else (and more than most ;) ) because when making a list I try include what will do the job I need best rather than what looks best on the table, and that often means multiple YT2400s instead of the Awings and Xwings I used to run, and the HWK that's really known only to gamers, or Scruugs instead of the beloved BWings. I ran several YT1300s in a few tournaments, but even as a fan YT1300s are so slow and so hard to use compared to YT2400s that I've had to drop them.

 

The Armada situation is not as bad as Xwing, where last year I went to a tournament where almost half the games were hyper-efficient Aggressors vs Aggressors and the iconic but uncompetitive Xwing fighters the game is named after languished for a long while.

 

Xwings are amongst the fighters that benefit the most from the new expansions, so hopefully the new releases will bring back the appeal of the squadrons from the Star Wars films. In the meantime I agree it's a shame some of the game's most appealing fighters have been marginalised by less recognisable new toys.

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If you are playing in competition, I can understand why you are using many R/V squadrons. They are usefull with their special ability's and their defense tokens. But if you are playing casual with friend's, nothing give you the obligation to play with more than 2 of each R/V. This way, you will see some squadron movies icons on the mat ;)

 

Hail to the X-Wing and the Interceptor!!!

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If you are playing in competition, I can understand why you are using many R/V squadrons. They are usefull with their special ability's and their defense tokens. But if you are playing casual with friend's, nothing give you the obligation to play with more than 2 of each R/V. This way, you will see some squadron movies icons on the mat ;)

 

Hail to the X-Wing and the Interceptor!!!

I think this is a misconception. There is no difference between competitive builds and non competitive builds.

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Lyraeus, for reading your comments for month's, I know the way you think about this. We should not see a difference between the two (casual vs. tournement), but when i'm playing with my friend's, I will try some list (crazy one) that I will not try in a tournement. Why... because I know that my friend's are crazy as me, so we won't come with the kind of list that you built to be sure to aim for the win at all cost.

 

This is my conception. This game is for fun and I'm not a tounement player anyway (but I can understand people who like this). And this way the game is never redondant for us (rarely the same list). All what I was trying to said to Norell Author of this tread) is a way to see more wave 1 squadrons on the mat and counter the feeling of over-powered unit as he think they are.

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