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shmitty

THRAWN!!!!

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Now if I can just get Mara Jade back...

 

Mara is effectively gone, and is likely to never return.  Mara Jade was written as the primary love interest for Luke Skywalker (oops, more spoilers for a 30 year old book) clear back in Heir to the Empire.  Disney wouldn't lock them into an EU character, in fact I'm 90% sure she and the Solo kids were the reason they canned the whole thing.

 

 

How do you square that with the fact that Kylo Ren is so similar to Jacen Solo? I'd be surprised if JJ/Kathleen even knew who Mara Jade was. Certainly Lucas wasn't her biggest fan, but his opinion doesn't matter much these days.

 

Anyway, if you check out the very positive reaction to Thrawn coming back on social media, plus the fact that pretty much every internet story about the new Rebels Season Three trailer leads with Thrawn's return as the highlight, I think this was a great move by Disney. They made a lot of people who invested a lot of time, energy, and money into the old stories that seemed so casually thrown away very happy. My hats off to Dave Filoni for his judicious inclusion of the better elements of the EU into Clone Wars and Rebels. This is really no different from what Marvel does when they reuse old plot lines (Civil War)/popular characters (Quicksilver) from the comics. The casual fans who never read a comic book enjoy them just as much as the hard core fans who are delighted to see their favorite characters make the big screen.

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... Snip

Not gonna argue your opinions, particularly as I don't drastically disagree with your critisms. I view them as more minor complaints, and everyone has different tastes.

I view TFA as a reboot (that didn't actually reboot as it's a continuation). It did a very good job at that in my opinion. It is a good movie, it can be a great movie of they take the foundation it laid and build on it (not just rehash empire and jedi.)

I said I wasn't gonna argue... But a couple points, a major critism of the Republic Jedi, and why Palpatine could manipulate their destruction, was their direct and over involvement in Republic politics, law enforcement, and the military. If done well, Luke's non-involvement after RotJ makes total sense.

Zahn touched on this in his books. From Heir, Obi-wan's last apparation stated: "Not the last of the old Jedi, Luke. The first of the new." Zahn further discussed the overpowered Jedi of the EU (which you can compare to the prequel Jedi) as the more power they use the less subtle intuition they can hear.

By the way Zahn and Thrawn are back, that's all that really matters.

Edit- Also in my opinion the Heir to the Empire trilogy & Hand of Thrawn duology are the pinnacle of Star Wars.

Edited by Indomitable

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See, I look at everything Norell said and I think, “yeah, that's probably true, from a certain point of view.” I'm just on the exact opposite end of the spectrum (Alright, I sorta agree on #4, but I'll give it a pass as I want to hear it from Episode 8 rather than rely on hearsay). And honestly, that's okay. Everyone has opinions and reasonings, and it's the justifications that matter. Norell's is valid as far as I'm concern, and while I'm not going to give a point for point, TFA is my second favourite in the series just behind Empire... because, you know, it's Empire.

 

I've got no stake in it: I'm just happy to have a cultured and intelligent antagonist in Rebels, and we know that Rebels filters over into the rest of the Star Wars sphere of influence, especially in the post tabula rasa state. I know Thrawn's reputation and I've read some of the trilogy (not that I can remember much) but my exposure to Thrawn is primarily through the TIE fighter series and not Zahn. Aside from a half dozen seminal video games and the vehicle guide, I just never consumed much EU media. After reading up on Courtship, Crystal Star, and Dark Nest, I'm pretty happy about that. 

 

But the important thing is that the blue one has been caught in our canonical tractor beam trap and will be made to perform entertaining feats for the benefit of all, yez!

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I like an add that he seems to have a reputation in this....

 

Governor Price calls him out specifically as having the Big Picture...

 

Cham just seems completely and utterly blown away at being...  blown away so quickly...

 

...  Even Hera had heard of him...

 

 

 

He's clearly the man to get **** done.

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I thought more about Thrawn and I am happy to see him included but I wonder how they are going to handle him because he should not be defeated by the Rebels.

 

I hope to see him defeat the rebels time after time always being one step ahead of them but right before he is able to deliver a final blow to the fledgling rebellion internal Imperial politics, backstabbing xenophobia etc all add up to get Thrawn assigned to command an expeditionary fleet to the unknown regions by request of the emperor (who is apparently on a quest to discover the origin of the dark side in the unknown regions)

 

This could keep his integrity as an undefeatable bad guy, preserve him for a later return alongside the first order (he could even be pulling the strings of Admiral Rex in the Aftermath series) and he could be coordinating the rise of the first order as seen in bloodlines.

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Thrawn could be defeated, but I would think to keep the character truish, good cases would likely have to be similar to the case in Dark Force Rising. Where unknown information meant his fleet was beaten, or even the battle of Billbringi (sp), where unknown elements (smugglers) were in play. Or even his ultimate defeat.

 

I do kind of hope they keep his evil, but thoughtful Imperial side. See the results right after the attempt to capture Luke. As well as the specisism that hampered him. 

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Honestly this made my whole week.  I've said before, my 3 favorite Star Wars Characters are:

 

1) Thrawn

2) "Legends" Wedge

3) "Legends" Wes Jansen

 

At least I get one of them back.

well, surely Mara has to be your veeeery close 4th ;)

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"Lt Ketch" may be the greatest character in any story ever.

 

I did not know this was a thing. I must have this in canon.

 

Well I did tell you to read the Xwings series. Mainly for this to be honest.

 

Edit: My mistake, you posted directly below Ceej with the same grav. I got confused.

Edited by Ginkapo

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Add one command dial to each of your opponents ships.

Based on the his opposition double and triple thinking themselves... Although the various liaison type officers are a pretty hard counter.

"At the start of the 3rd round Command phase, discard the command stack of each of your ships."

I think this is a pretty good option.

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The Armada Shipyards Thrawn is actually pretty close to what I had imagined. An ability that would allow you to know and impact what your opponent is likely to do.

 

commander-thrawn-i-b.jpg?w=194&h=300

 

I would literally reach across the board, shake hands, and tell anyone playing this card that I refuse to play.  I still can't believe anyone thought this card would be acceptable to play against, even as a fan creation.

"Here's my carefully constructed list bursting with theme and based on smart, strategic gameplay.  Please proceed to make it literally unplayable for the next 6 rounds."

Edited by thecactusman17

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Agreed. Now, having Thrawn look at command dials makes sense. After all, his strength is in predicting what his opponent will do. But changing what his opponent will do? That doesn't make any sense.

 

Now, if it were Palpatine and he were about fifty points. . .that would make sense.

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I am compelled to take this apart piece by piece, because this is pretty bad.

 

I'm not going to quote everything that was said, but only show out my biggest concerns:

 

1) TFA was nothing but ANH all over again, form point to point. Just everything must be bigger. Star destroyers, superweapons, you name it.

 

Actually, TFA was pretty much a revisit of the entire original trilogy, two of which were about destroying the Death Star.

 

2) Old characters are literally only there to fill up the screen. Han Solo acts nothing like Han Solo, their interaction with Leia is beyond ridiculous. Threepio has NOT SINGLE significant line in the whole movie! If he could have been cut off and you wouldn't notice it.

 

Old characters are there because there is a massive audience that wants to know what happened to them, and doesn't feel compelled to read through 30 years of licensed fanfiction to do so.  Also, it was potentially the last chance to see them in another Star Wars film, so of course they were going to appear.

 

3) Luke. OMG where to start. I've read the books from the new timeline and I still can't find justified how can he turn his back on Yoda and Obi-Wan like that. His mission from the very beginning was to rebuild the Jedi Order, and at the first bump he says "The hell with it, I'm going to be a hermit!" In the original timeline he was struggling for decades and through many crises to keep the order together!

 

Why does Luke need to be an amazing success at training Jedi?  Obi-Wan and Yoda BOTH do this for more or less the same reasons, hiding from the Empire until they can train a new generation if there ever is one to begin with.  Both failed their final student, Obi-Wan failed his final student AND his Jedi padawan.  Luke having the same trouble is not a sign of bad writing, it's actually a pretty solid comparison to most people who have to teach difficult students.

 

4) How Rey masters the Force. I know she's supposed to be super strong and the reincarnation of the Chosen One (WTF by the way?!), but come on! She learns about the Force and a few hours later she's a master of mind control. Jedi Knight learned in the Jedi Temple for decades and she can master it in a few hours with nobody to instruct her? L O L! Not to mention knowing how to use a lightsaber effectively. A lightsaber is by definition differs from anything she ever used because the blade has no weight! And she picks it up and beats Ren.

 

Kind of like how Luke Skywalker eyeballs a critical one-in-a-billion torpedo shot with no training, or how he yanks a lightsabre across a cave with no training in that technique seconds before being eaten alive?

 

5) And Kylo Ren.... My god what a crybaby. He declares that family doesn't mean anything to him and then cries to "Grandfather" to give him power... Such a pathetic loser. I just can't take him seriously...

 

Kylo Ren goes through Anakin Skywalker's entire adult character arc over the course of one movie, except does so from the perspective of a Sith apprentice.  In several key ways, he's actually more believable and more easy to take seriously than Darth Vader.  So sorry they couldn't get James Earl Jones to voice him.

 

6) Speaking about Kylo, the line "Vader's blood flows in his veins" is unforgivable. The whole plot of RotJ, especially enhanced by the prequel trilogy is that your destiny is not written in stone. Your choices makes you good or bad and even Darth Vader could be redeemed. And now Solo simplifies Ren's turning to the dark side by some stupid genes...

 

"He has too much of his father in him."  A line spoken by both Owen Lars and Obi-Wan-Kenobi about Luke.  And he defies expectations and becomes the last Jedi Knight.  "There is good in him, I know it."  Spoken by Luke about Vader and Leia about Kylo.... who kills his father and fully joins the Dark Side.

 

7) Fynn. So... A stormtrooper. A professionally trained killing machine snaps on the first engagement and defects. He can't take pressure at all. And this never came up on any of his evaluations? Not to mention his weird bromance with Poe. They met only twice for maybe 20 minutes during the time frame of the film but they are BFFs already?!

 

A brainwashed child snapsback into reality during combat and immediately makes a break for freedom.  With a man who proves to be his first trustworthy person outside of the empire, who guarantees him safety if he can get BB-8 unit to the resistance and follows through.  This is literally almost identical to Han Solo's backstory from the EU minus an enslaved wookie and the childhood brainwashing.

 

8) The whole Empire-First Order vs. Republic-Resistance is just stupid, unnecessary and ridiculous. They just wanted to bring back the Empire vs Rebellion theme all over again so they had to figure out this twisted idea which makes no sense at all.

 

This is literally the first thing they did with the EU.

 

9) And finally, what couldn't be forgiven at all is that they could have preserved 99% of the original timeline if they wanted to. All they would have to change in the plot was  to rename Rey to Jaina and keep Han and Leia together.

 

So all they would have had to do is be locked into 30 years of fanfiction with no quality control, no cohesive background for most of its characters, no overarching backstory, no major changes to the status quo, and no surprises for long time fans.  I guarantee you would have been screaming your head off about that.

In my opinion the whole movie was extremely poorly written with ridiculous dialogs, no original ideas and shamefully copying everything from ANH, and it desecrates lots of things that were lovable in Star Wars before...

 

No original ideas?

The Empire is being lead by a non-force user, the good guys are a Stormtrooper and an orphan, the bad guys are Han Solo's kid and Ronald Weasley, we got our first real taste of the idea of a broad interstellar pirate or mercenary fleet, the Rebellion has been essentially defeated, the new Death Star actually completed it's primary mission straight off, and a major hero died.

Seriously, this is some of the most original storytelling Star wars has had since A New Hope.

 

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The Armada Shipyards Thrawn is actually pretty close to what I had imagined. An ability that would allow you to know and impact what your opponent is likely to do.

 

commander-thrawn-i-b.jpg?w=194&h=300

I would like it to be more 

"In Rounds 2,4,6 Pick one ship and change that ships top dial" this would feel more like Thrawn than rearranging a stack of dials.  While changing that stack is powerful, I think dictating what that one ship is going to do is more Thrawn like

Edited by jpersons73

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The Armada Shipyards Thrawn is actually pretty close to what I had imagined. An ability that would allow you to know and impact what your opponent is likely to do.

 

commander-thrawn-i-b.jpg?w=194&h=300

 

I would literally reach across the board, shake hands, and tell anyone playing this card that I refuse to play.  I still can't believe anyone thought this card would be acceptable to play against, even as a fan creation.

"Here's my carefully constructed list bursting with theme and based on smart, strategic gameplay.  Please proceed to make it literally unplayable for the next 6 rounds."

 

Really? 

 

Its such a weak ability. My stack > Nav Nav Nav Nav Nav Nav. Rearrange anyway you want it will still be a Nav coming next. Sure I would like a command fire at some point but if not no worries. 

 

Leia on a command 1 ship such as a flotilla prevents Thrawn from messing with your squad carriers either. Which will be really useful for dodging slicer tools anyway. 

 

So the real question is why does that ability cost 36pts when its basically useless....

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The Armada Shipyards Thrawn is actually pretty close to what I had imagined. An ability that would allow you to know and impact what your opponent is likely to do.

 

commander-thrawn-i-b.jpg?w=194&h=300

 

I would literally reach across the board, shake hands, and tell anyone playing this card that I refuse to play.  I still can't believe anyone thought this card would be acceptable to play against, even as a fan creation.

"Here's my carefully constructed list bursting with theme and based on smart, strategic gameplay.  Please proceed to make it literally unplayable for the next 6 rounds."

 

Really? 

 

Its such a weak ability. My stack > Nav Nav Nav Nav Nav Nav. Rearrange anyway you want it will still be a Nav coming next. Sure I would like a command fire at some point but if not no worries. 

 

Leia on a command 1 ship such as a flotilla prevents Thrawn from messing with your squad carriers either. Which will be really useful for dodging slicer tools anyway. 

 

So the real question is why does that ability cost 36pts when its basically useless....

 

 

Useless?

 

First off, Leia doesn't work for Imperials.

Second, this basically prevents players from having an end game.  Need to plan a speed change and turn later to not run off the board?  Hope you have three navs lined up or Thrawn is showing you the airlock.  need to repair?  Thrawn pushes that command forward or backward in the stack to make it useless.  And can keep doing so, so it you put up another command, he just messes with that one too.

If you run single command ships like Demolisher, then sure you're probably safe.  But if you have reason to repair, concentrate fire, or activate a squadron mid-game he makes your ship literally unusable without even the slightest ability to defend against it.  At least with Slicer tools, the flotilla has to expose itself and get within distance 3.  Thrawn just starts at the word go and doesn't let up, completely nullifying any long term strategy.

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As a side note, I also love that Lars Mikkelsen is doing the voice acting. He plays an excellent cold and calculating villain, as seen in the BBC's Sherlock. I think he'll fit the role perfectly.

 

Yeah, I liked him too. Although I'm not completely satisfied with the design of the character (IMO his face should have sharper lines), Mikkelsen's voice is exactly how I imagined Thrawn's.

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Just because you were so kind to reply, I'll reply to you in detail too.

 

snip

 

snip

 

I'm not going to quote everything that was said, but only show out my biggest concerns:

 

1) Actually, TFA was pretty much a revisit of the entire original trilogy, two of which were about destroying the Death Star.

 

If they wanted to make a reboot, that would ahve been fine. They did it with Star Trek and it worked out fine. They reinterpreted the characters and stuff. But they did not copy the fist film from scene to scene for love's sake!

 

2) Old characters are there because there is a massive audience that wants to know what happened to them, and doesn't feel compelled to read through 30 years of licensed fanfiction to do so.  Also, it was potentially the last chance to see them in another Star Wars film, so of course they were going to appear.

 

Obviously they were there to make a connection but my point was that they were totally weightless and pointless in what they were doing. The return of Han Solo or Leia Organa should have been a momentous occasion, but the writers gave them so stupid lines and they have pout them into such awkward situation that it was painful to watch...

 

3) Why does Luke need to be an amazing success at training Jedi?  Obi-Wan and Yoda BOTH do this for more or less the same reasons, hiding from the Empire until they can train a new generation if there ever is one to begin with.  Both failed their final student, Obi-Wan failed his final student AND his Jedi padawan.  Luke having the same trouble is not a sign of bad writing, it's actually a pretty solid comparison to most people who have to teach difficult students.

 

How Obi-Wan and Yoda failed their final student exactly? LUKE was their final student and they prepared him pretty well to face Vader and the Emperor in the end. Sorry but I just can't see your point there.

 

4) Kind of like how Luke Skywalker eyeballs a critical one-in-a-billion torpedo shot with no training, or how he yanks a lightsabre across a cave with no training in that technique seconds before being eaten alive?

 

Ok, I give you the one-in-a-billion shot. But between ANH and ESB Luke was actually training a lot from various sources. Of course it's not in the films, but Luke is half Jedi already at the beginning of Empire. Note that DURING Empire he didn't spend only two days in Dagobah but several weeks according to the book.

 

5) Kylo Ren goes through Anakin Skywalker's entire adult character arc over the course of one movie, except does so from the perspective of a Sith apprentice.  In several key ways, he's actually more believable and more easy to take seriously than Darth Vader.  So sorry they couldn't get James Earl Jones to voice him.

 

How is he going throug it? O.o He's turning to the dark side because he's a grumpy little kid whose daddy wasn't there to spank him when needed. Then he basically doesn't do anything other than what Snoke tells him to do. Also becasue Harrison Ford wanted to quit Star Wars after Ep7 :P I'm sorry but I can't really see any character development in him. Maybe they wanted to add n something, but it's so poorly written you have to really want to see something to it to find anything...

 

6) "He has too much of his father in him."  A line spoken by both Owen Lars and Obi-Wan-Kenobi about Luke.  And he defies expectations and becomes the last Jedi Knight.  "There is good in him, I know it."  Spoken by Luke about Vader and Leia about Kylo.... who kills his father and fully joins the Dark Side.

 

He did not join fully to the dark side. I bet you in anything that he'll be redeemed ridiculously easily. Plus how can he call himself a Sith or whatever if he did not yet turned to the Dark Side? You should read abot Jacen Solo. HE was struggling with the Dark Side, Ren is jsut crying around. It just doesn't add up. And how weak is he? Rey with no training wipes he floor with him.

 

7) A brainwashed child snapsback into reality during combat and immediately makes a break for freedom.  With a man who proves to be his first trustworthy person outside of the empire, who guarantees him safety if he can get BB-8 unit to the resistance and follows through.  This is literally almost identical to Han Solo's backstory from the EU minus an enslaved wookie and the childhood brainwashing.

 

Err... Wut? If this brainwash thing is so horribly weak that random stormtroopers just break down, why do they use it in the first place? And my question remains: How come it did not come up in hsi training? They do not train stormtroopers in battle simulation? There are no stress tests? HOW????? Do they use dolls when they train?! And you still did not explain to me how the bromance with Poe - who is a seasoned soldier by the way - comes into picture. Han and Luke at least spent almost a whole movie together, but Fynn and Poe had like two or three scenes together.

 

8) This is literally the first thing they did with the EU.

 

Literally what? Emprie vs. Rebellion turned into Empire vs. Republic then Republic vs. Sii-Ruvi, then Republic vs. itself, then... In most of the books it's not even the sake of the galaxy is on balance. Heck, in some cases the tide even turns and the Republic/GA becomes the oppressing force... But in Ep7 they just recreated the same ragtag band of rebels against big evil menacing empire thing which is just stupid.

 

9) So all they would have had to do is be locked into 30 years of fanfiction with no quality control, no cohesive background for most of its characters, no overarching backstory, no major changes to the status quo, and no surprises for long time fans.  I guarantee you would have been screaming your head off about that.

 

Yeah, they could have done that. I really don't see the issue with that. Ok, there were some weak point in the Yuuzhan Vong arc, but what came after that was pretty well written in my opinion. They could ahve stick to that. They could have rebooted the whole series. Anything BUT this. Again, this is my opinion only.

 


No original ideas?

The Empire is being lead by a non-force user,

We saw that in verious EU books already.

 

the good guys are a Stormtrooper and an orphan,

Replace it with a smuggler and an orphan.

 

the bad guys are Han Solo's kid and Ronald Weasley,

EU, ditto.

 

we got our first real taste of the idea of a broad interstellar pirate or mercenary fleet,

You mean like the Smugglers Alliance? Or the Hapan Royal Fleet (from a certain point of view)?

 

the Rebellion has been essentially defeated, the new Death Star actually completed it's primary mission straight off, and a major hero died.

Defeated like how? The point of the rebellion was to overthrow the Empire and they managed to do so. And how did the Death Star completed its mission? By blowing up the Emperor and eventually leading the Empire to defeat? I really can't follow you there. And the death of a major hero was - unfortunately - more like the will of Harrison Ford being fed up by Star Wars (he barely accepted to be part of Jedi) than courageous storywriting. Frankly, I had somewhat high hopes when I heard that Lawrence Kasdan will be working on Ep7 but I still think that it was a huge letdown and I really can't see in your arguments that would change anything.

 

And as a footnote: I don't think it is possible to talk seriously (can you even talk seriously about a fictional universe?) about Star Wars without knowing some of the books at least.

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And as a footnote: I don't think it is possible to talk seriously (can you even talk seriously about a fictional universe?) about Star Wars without knowing some of the books at least.

 

 

Which books?

Are they Canon?

 

Will they be known as "the story" for myself, and my Toddler, who has thusly learned how to sing "Da da!" along with the opening Credits music?

 

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