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WickedGrey

Please make Deadeye small ship only

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Isn't it just simpler to make the Contracted Scout unique?

It would be the least amount of "ink change", and have the minimum amount of unintended sideeffects. Just a dot next to the name of the pilot. That is something everyone could do with a pen.

It wouldn't arbitrarily punish Deadeye, that has been fine for 6 waves.

It would still allow people that have bought 3 Jumpmaster expansion packs to field all of them, only with different pilots and different loadouts.

 

We can all agree that Deadeye isn't the problem here, but the clearly undercosted Contracted Scout in combination with it, times three.

You can have things that are really awesome for their cost, but in that case, you are usually limited to how many of them you can bring. 

If Experimental Interface, Lone Wolf, and Squad Leader are unique, surely can a generic pilot be so too.

 

And yes, 3 torpedo scouts can be defeated. Palpaces do it successfully. Other squads also do it, but at the cost of not being successful against many other archetypes.

The torpedo scout won't be nerfed for making it unique. It will be as effective as always. The only thing that will be limited will be the spammability of it. But hopefully that would lead to more variety in both Scum lists, and all lists.

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The weird world of tournaments

one moment people whine and moan about PWTs. Autothrusters and TLTs slam down. People whine and moan about aces and TLTs.

WHAM! Scouts ram down half of aces and TLTs, returning Swarms and PWTs back.

Guess what?
MORE WHINE

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Isn't it just simpler to make the Contracted Scout unique?

It would be the least amount of "ink change", and have the minimum amount of unintended sideeffects. Just a dot next to the name of the pilot. That is something everyone could do with a pen.

It wouldn't arbitrarily punish Deadeye, that has been fine for 6 waves.

It would still allow people that have bought 3 Jumpmaster expansion packs to field all of them, only with different pilots and different loadouts.

 

We can all agree that Deadeye isn't the problem here, but the clearly undercosted Contracted Scout in combination with it, times three.

You can have things that are really awesome for their cost, but in that case, you are usually limited to how many of them you can bring. 

If Experimental Interface, Lone Wolf, and Squad Leader are unique, surely can a generic pilot be so too.

 

And yes, 3 torpedo scouts can be defeated. Palpaces do it successfully. Other squads also do it, but at the cost of not being successful against many other archetypes.

The torpedo scout won't be nerfed for making it unique. It will be as effective as always. The only thing that will be limited will be the spammability of it. But hopefully that would lead to more variety in both Scum lists, and all lists.

This would be my preferred solution.  Trip jumps would still fit but wouldn't be as good, double jumps would still be just as fine as they are now.

 

That or take the EPT off.

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Jumpmasters never needed to be nerfed. They are not that hard to beat. There are multiple legitimate ways to attack them. Dodging their arc, flying into range one, stay at range 3 with Autothrusters and Palpatine, bid higher on PS and fly ordinance yourself, use a swarm to block maneuvers to strip them of actions, etc.

If the nerf was just incidental to them cleaning up timing, I guess that's kind of reasonable. They did it at a terrible time, though. Palpatine was a miserable printing and is way too good for its cheap cost. There was only one other list that was putting up numbers approaching Palp Aces and they nerfed it. They didn't really nerf it but they took it down a notch needlessly. Range 2-3 ordinance isn't even that good against Palp Aces because they can arc dodge, tank up or some combination of both to shrug of one torpedo and dodge the rest.

In this metagame, if you're going to fix something, it ought to be the most problematic squad, Palp Aces. Nothing needs to happen to Deadeye or EPTs or Jumpmasters. Really, all they need to do is ban a card they never should have printed, Palpatine. If you think Palpatine isn't that good you're kidding yourself. Every time he converts a die result to an evade he's saving you a fraction of your ships points. If he added a third evade result to an attack on Soontir Fel, he just saved you a third of Fel's points, roughly 11 points. That's just with one modification. How many times are you modifying dice with Palpatine a game?

They'd probably piss off a lot of players who bought an epic ship for one upgrade card. Maybe they could print an upgrade that you can discard so dice can't be modified for an attack or defense once a turn.

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Jumpmasters never needed to be nerfed. They are not that hard to beat. There are multiple legitimate ways to attack them. Dodging their arc, flying into range one, stay at range 3 with Autothrusters and Palpatine, bid higher on PS and fly ordinance yourself, use a swarm to block maneuvers to strip them of actions, etc.

If the nerf was just incidental to them cleaning up timing, I guess that's kind of reasonable. They did it at a terrible time, though. Palpatine was a miserable printing and is way too good for its cheap cost. There was only one other list that was putting up numbers approaching Palp Aces and they nerfed it. They didn't really nerf it but they took it down a notch needlessly. Range 2-3 ordinance isn't even that good against Palp Aces because they can arc dodge, tank up or some combination of both to shrug of one torpedo and dodge the rest.

In this metagame, if you're going to fix something, it ought to be the most problematic squad, Palp Aces. Nothing needs to happen to Deadeye or EPTs or Jumpmasters. Really, all they need to do is ban a card they never should have printed, Palpatine. If you think Palpatine isn't that good you're kidding yourself. Every time he converts a die result to an evade he's saving you a fraction of your ships points. If he added a third evade result to an attack on Soontir Fel, he just saved you a third of Fel's points, roughly 11 points. That's just with one modification. How many times are you modifying dice with Palpatine a game?

They'd probably piss off a lot of players who bought an epic ship for one upgrade card. Maybe they could print an upgrade that you can discard so dice can't be modified for an attack or defense once a turn.

Palp should have been Huge Ship Only, maybe.

 

I'd agree that Palp is too good and/or cheap.

I'd disagree that JM5ks weren't broken before the R4 Agro fix.  I suspect this fix actually makes them a lot less broken and a lot more skill-dependent because of the need to self-stress to get full mods meaning the dial is much, much more limiting, and particularly, they can't fire torps after a sloop if they fired and got full mods last round.

 

UK nationals next month will be interesting, I suspect we'll see a lot less JMs at mid-tables than we did at Yavin.

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One or the other needs a nerf. Preferably Palpatine because that's had 2 waves of domination, and i actually wouldn't mind a jousting/ordnance based meta. But basically, if you nerf JM5Ks into oblivion, all the stuff that can win against Palp Aces will come back and give them competition again. If you nerf Palpatine, all the stuff that can beat JM5Ks will come in because they can't lose to Palp anymore. Either way, Palp's iron grip of the meta is loosened, and it's about time Imperials put some **** effort into their lists and games again.

 

Something needs to be nerfed.

 

I want some butts, i want 'em now, i've had it!

Edited by Razgriz25thinf

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The Game is full of Broken Mechanics.

- The Overlap

- One sided Initiative

- Fixed, unbalanced costing instead of Dynamic costing

- Mechanics that should be Unique being Generic

- Bland Ships vs Combo Ships. More upgrade slots magnifies the best of the options available.

- Turrets with 100% coverage.

- Guaranteed or Near Guaranteed results (read Evade Token, Autoblaster, Emperor, Vader, TLT)

- Ordnance, it isn't special so only matters if its more Overpowered than its primary equivalent

(Proton Torpedoes would have an effective range of about 9-10 when compared with the range of the primary cannons and have a travel speed of about 4. You use them to shoot Capital ships at range and would likely have 1 dice accuracy but do 4-7 damage on a successful hit.)

- Target Lock (isn't sure if its a Firing solution or target tracking and technically makes a Rookie Pilot able to hit harder than Soontir)

Contracted Scout is a problem because multiple of these issues.

Its presence makes most everything else less. Take it away altogether and the other problem Dominate list 'Aces' can be answered fairly.

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The Game is full of Broken Mechanics.

- The Overlap is fine because blocking is a prime, and skill-requirement aspect

- One sided Initiative agreed, Armada has better alternative, the SHIFTING initiative

- Fixed, unbalanced costing instead of Dynamic costing that's normal. Dynamic costs can't be balanced neatly.

- Mechanics that should be Unique being Generic Like what?!

- Bland Ships vs Combo Ships. More upgrade slots magnifies the best of the options available. Boys over toys is the principle of army-building mechanics everywhere.

- Turrets with 100% coverage. are fine, they just should have had extra white dice for course-based interaction. Tailed? GET THE EXTRA DIE!

- Guaranteed or Near Guaranteed results (read Evade Token, Autoblaster, Emperor, Vader, TLT) They are great, because dice get cold and hot disregarding your skill.

- Ordnance, it isn't special so only matters if its more Overpowered than its primary equivalent. I am HAPPY that after 7 waves of being utter SHEEEEIT Ordnance is useful. Except that they could have done it better, giving us black dice with double results. This way fat targets would get proportionately more damage than squinty targets that can evade one-dice-at-a-time no problem. Instead FFG spammed more ordnance and gave us unnecessary chimps.

- Target Lock (isn't sure if its a Firing solution or target tracking and technically makes a Rookie Pilot able to hit harder than Soontir) Is fine because Soontir shoots from the hip while performing mind-blowing maneuvers on the brink of blacking out every moment.

 

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Its presence makes most everything else less. Take it away altogether and the other problem Dominate list 'Aces' can be answered fairly.

Yeah, but you can say the same thing about Palp Aces except it's much easier to counter triple Jumpmasters than Palp Aces. Because of that and Palp Aces is the better squad, I would have done something to Palp Aces, not triple Jumpmasters.

Again, this could have just been an unfortunate consequence of them cleaning up the timing chart. Unfortunate because the fix should have been a ban on Palpatine and we probably would have had a golden age of X-Wing. As it stands, we basically have an arms race that is stifling diversity.

If I'm biased, it's in favor of Palp Aces (just look at my name). At some point you have to concede that it's too good and stifling diversity. A friend of mine and I have been tracking value generated by Palpatine and he ranges from the mid 20s to the low 100s. In some games, he's generating so much value, it's as if you have two lists! Once we've finished collecting results, I'll share them. It's pretty absurd.

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If I'm biased, it's in favor of Palp Aces (just look at my name). At some point you have to concede that it's too good and stifling diversity. A friend of mine and I have been tracking value generated by Palpatine and he ranges from the mid 20s to the low 100s. In some games, he's generating so much value, it's as if you have two lists

 

On a ship that is more or less a punching bag, with a crummy dial and gives half points in no time. But by all means, lets look at things in a vacuum.

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On a ship that is more or less a punching bag, with a crummy dial and gives half points in no time. But by all means, lets look at things in a vacuum.

 

It's a punching bag if you bring it into the fight early. You could also fly it away and have the Aces pick apart any ship chasing it.  While they're chasing and attacking the shuttle, you're taking a ship out in a 2-3 ship squad or probably two ships in a 4+ squad.  If they chase the shuttle, once it's gone, you're already so advantaged you're most likely going to win. The shuttle dial isn't really a crummy dial. It can't turn around but it can zero maneuver.  That's why everyone keeps it out of the fight early.  Let the Aces attack first since it's unlikely they actually get hit with all their modifications and Palpatine, then bring the shuttle in after the fact to sink some extra shots.  Yeah, if you throw your shuttle away, you threw your shuttle away. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Make Deadeye unique. Then you can't run it on multiple Jumpmasters.

 

Heck if all EPTs were unique, would that break the game? It would break Crack Swarms, but I don't think it would destroy the game.

 

Interesting idea. Of course there would have to be exceptions like 'Mind Link'. PTL, VI and such will definitely change some lists dramatically. Of course, here I go again, I still like the idea of most (all but one or two) large ships must be flow with a Title. That would automatically limit the majority of these things causing the problem.

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Make Deadeye unique. Then you can't run it on multiple Jumpmasters.

 

Heck if all EPTs were unique, would that break the game? It would break Crack Swarms, but I don't think it would destroy the game.

 

Attani Mindlink would suck pretty hard if it was unique.

New, new idea: all EPTs unique except single use ones.

 

You just quoted the Mindlink problem and promptly ignored it. Attanni Mindlink isn't a one-use upgrade.

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Don't touch Deadeye! We FINALLY have something that can Ordnance aces all the things can actually beat aces to hell.

 

Fixed that for you

Makaze gets it, but there's a lot of Not Getting My Point in this thread.

Jumpmasters can be beaten, for sure. However, the types of lists that can are somewhat narrow, such that JM15K is pushing out a lot of non-ace lists. Think about how many wave 7 list types just don't have a chance against a well-flown JM15k list. I'm actually getting to the point where I miss seeing a rebel regen list across the table.

I also think that JM5K makes for such a better ordnance platform than everything else that it's going to limit ordnance to only being good on JM5Ks (which is why I don't think that making Deadeye unique is the best solution).

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Make Deadeye unique. Then you can't run it on multiple Jumpmasters.

 

Heck if all EPTs were unique, would that break the game? It would break Crack Swarms, but I don't think it would destroy the game.

 

Attani Mindlink would suck pretty hard if it was unique.

New, new idea: all EPTs unique except single use ones.

You just quoted the Mindlink problem and promptly ignored it. Attanni Mindlink isn't a one-use upgrade.

As you deftly point out; all except single use with a specific exception for Mindlink as well. It's not really a hard and fast rule change, more of a casual play suggestion... which solves nothing for the tournament players here.

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Don't touch Deadeye! We FINALLY have something that can Ordnance aces all the things can actually beat aces to hell.

 

Fixed that for you

 

Yeah, the greatest rebel fix to acewing?

VI regen aces.

Aww yeah. Good riddance

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Deadeye isnt the problem, its JM5Ks cheap dirt cost with an EPT, 9 hp and 2 greens, and PWT.

A way to fix the problem is to give rebels and imps a comparable ship. Give punishers a title to have an ept. Give bwings and kwings a title for an ept.

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Deadeye isnt the problem, its JM5Ks cheap dirt cost with an EPT, 9 hp and 2 greens, and PWT.

A way to fix the problem is to give rebels and imps a comparable ship. Give punishers a title to have an ept. Give bwings and kwings a title for an ept.

Compare it to a K-wing. I dare you, I DOUBLE DARE YOU

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