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Amraam01

Expansions coming out too fast?

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So, hear me out for a second, this applies to skirmish. This game was release late 2014 so we are not even 2 years out and the number of expansions are overwhelming, I count 30 now!  Of course, I collect everything, but I think this is really hurting the community.  In our area, the skirmish group has been shrinking, citing cost and too much to keep up with.  Just think, what will it look like in another 2 years, 60 expansions total?  I dont know how a new players could realistic not get overwhelmed to play 'competitively' against someone who has everything.  Of course, you can simply 'buy what you want' only, but you do need to know how all of the commands cards/characters work, or you can  be rolled over from simply not knowing the mechanics to being constantly surprise what people can do.  Just think, if your new to Netrunner, want to jump in competitively or feel a little intimated with the massive library of cards?  

 

Personally, a big library is always inevitable given enough time, but just  my preference is I like a slower release cycle.

Edited by Amraam01

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Compared to Magic The Gathering (largest community for any type of game), we're getting off cheap.

I disagree with the above statement. For sure, someone like you and me who wants to have everything (and a lot of two of something for the non uniques for double elite version possibilities in skirmish), I can understand that its a little pricey. But the cost of a Bespin Gambit set is approx. $100 MSRP ($40 + $10 + $10 + $10 + $26 [$13 x 2]) and that gives you EVERYTHING in that set. MtG latest expansion for 1 box at MSRP is $108 and that's not even getting you every card. A full complete set sells for $250...and that's not even 4 of each card, which would result in $1,000. So trust me, we're getting off cheap.

But just like MtG, you don't HAVE to buy everything, and that's just looking at the competitive side. You barely have to buy anything to play just for fun. But right now, you need Core + Hoth ($100 + $60) and that gives you a lot of competitive play already without even having to go the expansion pack way.

Plus the quicker things come out, the faster we get diversity. If you want to play casual, you are not forced to play anything and aren't required to have to get anything right now. You can get it whenever you want.

~D

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I agree, but FFG wants to get paid.  Look at Star Wars minis.  They kept releasing new character that would adversely affect the meta game and if you didn't have certain pieces, you couldn't be competitive.  I had a 12" x 12" box of bagged commons and uncommons. I think this is why they included characters like the inquisitor.  Not because it makes sense, but because it has board appeal and will move a lot of units. 

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I agree, but FFG wants to get paid.  Look at Star Wars minis.  They kept releasing new character that would adversely affect the meta game and if you didn't have certain pieces, you couldn't be competitive.  I had a 12" x 12" box of bagged commons and uncommons. I think this is why they included characters like the inquisitor.  Not because it makes sense, but because it has board appeal and will move a lot of units. 

You right, the bottom line is what is the ultimate driver.  When I saw the inquisitor announced, I was confused (Couldnt they make a new box set in that time period with all of those characters?)  I know there are a lot of complaints on the Armada forums about the slow cycle and stagnation/ lack of diversity but that is much more manageable for now.  The slower cycle probably has more to do with infrastructure though and not by design.    

 

Diversity is always good, but I think when they release so many small packs separate (Really, no boba fett plastic in the twin shadows?), someone really needs to walk someone new through this process of what to get how to start up.  Just image if you are not part of the community boards!    

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Compared to Magic The Gathering (largest community for any type of game), we're getting off cheap.

I disagree with the above statement. For sure, someone like you and me who wants to have everything (and a lot of two of something for the non uniques for double elite version possibilities in skirmish), I can understand that its a little pricey. But the cost of a Bespin Gambit set is approx. $100 MSRP ($40 + $10 + $10 + $10 + $26 [$13 x 2]) and that gives you EVERYTHING in that set. MtG latest expansion for 1 box at MSRP is $108 and that's not even getting you every card. A full complete set sells for $250...and that's not even 4 of each card, which would result in $1,000. So trust me, we're getting off cheap.

But just like MtG, you don't HAVE to buy everything, and that's just looking at the competitive side. You barely have to buy anything to play just for fun. But right now, you need Core + Hoth ($100 + $60) and that gives you a lot of competitive play already without even having to go the expansion pack way.

Plus the quicker things come out, the faster we get diversity. If you want to play casual, you are not forced to play anything and aren't required to have to get anything right now. You can get it whenever you want.

~D

MTG has a huge fanatical  following so they can get away with whatever they want price wise, but really Imperial assault I consider brand new and needs a little nurturing and not really a good comparison.  Maybe just my Denver area (example regionals attracted less people then the prior year), how is your guys observations on your local community?    

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Ha!  Play X-Wing and see which is more expensive!  I'm an idiot and play both!

 

TECHNICALLY...  we've only had 3 expansions, though we've had several ally/villain packs....

 

X-Wing is expensive, but some great models.  I actually have the main game but I play X-Wing on Virtual Tabletop.  I get the fun in without the elaborate setup.

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Buying one of everything for X-Wing (epic not included) retails at $1,000.

 

Buying one of everything for Imperial Assault retails at $548.

 

Hmmmm...  X-Wing came out in 2012 so that's over 4 years that's an average of $250 a year spent.  But Imperial Assault came out in late 2014, so it's basically been out about 1.75 years, which comes to about $313 a year.

 

That's only if you buy one of everything though.  Personally, I buy two sets of generics for Imperial Assault so I can have standard and elites.  For X-Wing, I only buy one of everything (or will eventually, maybe).  The hardcore players are known to buy multiples quite often, and buy the epic ships for the cards. 

 

I wonder which game really is the more expensive?

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Compared to Magic The Gathering (largest community for any type of game), we're getting off cheap.

I disagree with the above statement. For sure, someone like you and me who wants to have everything (and a lot of two of something for the non uniques for double elite version possibilities in skirmish), I can understand that its a little pricey. But the cost of a Bespin Gambit set is approx. $100 MSRP ($40 + $10 + $10 + $10 + $26 [$13 x 2]) and that gives you EVERYTHING in that set. MtG latest expansion for 1 box at MSRP is $108 and that's not even getting you every card. A full complete set sells for $250...and that's not even 4 of each card, which would result in $1,000. So trust me, we're getting off cheap.

But just like MtG, you don't HAVE to buy everything, and that's just looking at the competitive side. You barely have to buy anything to play just for fun. But right now, you need Core + Hoth ($100 + $60) and that gives you a lot of competitive play already without even having to go the expansion pack way.

Plus the quicker things come out, the faster we get diversity. If you want to play casual, you are not forced to play anything and aren't required to have to get anything right now. You can get it whenever you want.

~D

MTG has a huge fanatical  following so they can get away with whatever they want price wise, but really Imperial assault I consider brand new and needs a little nurturing and not really a good comparison.  Maybe just my Denver area (example regionals attracted less people then the prior year), how is your guys observations on your local community?    

 

 

X-Wing and Imperial Assault are DEAD in my area, unless I want to drive 65 miles away.  The games that are happening are Dice Masters, Heroclix, MtG, and Warhammer 40K.

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Guildball and mtg dominate my area but x-wing does have a presence. We were starting to grow an IA community before summer hit and being outside took priority. So basically right now there are two of us who play skirmish in a 300k city and a 700k greater area within 2.5 hours, including another city. Pretty sad and everyone quotes price.

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Yeah, it's expensive. My main thing is that it moves very very fast for someone who can't play at least, say, a couple of times a month.

 

I personally haven't played a real skirmish for about three months and have no idea what most of my new stuff does yet. I'm still painting and doing the printable maps because I can do those in my personal downtime, but I need to find time with my wife or others (and no kid, crucially) to play an actual game.

 

Obviously FFG needs to move product to existing customers, but I wonder whether the speed and mounting expense reduces the potential number of new customers. That said, existing customers are probably worth more as (I assume) the profit margins on the blister packs are far higher than on the boxes.

 

Reminds me of when I got into X-Wing two and a half years late and the number of upgrade cards I got (even with my twenty-ish ship OT-only collection) was just too great to keep in my head. So I made IA-style cards with pre-built ship archetypes cribbed off the web, and have been enjoying the game very much with those. And X-Wing is so approachable that I've brought my collection to the office and can play with colleagues from time to time.

 

I don't really know why I'm moaning about this; even with my limited exposure to the real game, IA is still a solid hobby and keeps me off the streets. But I do sort of long for the day, probably a good few years off, when FFG moves on to another product and says IA is complete. Then the pressure will be off a bit  :)

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My wallet says yes , my heart says keep them coming :) 

 

After the 3 minis coming (obi and stuff) i think we will likely see the next big box in dec so think we will get a break.

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My only complaint about the quick release schedule is that I'm having enough trouble catching up on painting as it is.

 

But nothing is yet announced for after the current mini-wave of ally and villain packs. An announcement of the next wave at GenCon wouldn't be unexpected, possibly with a release during the Christmas shopping season. That's a decent bit of a break for people who need to catch up.

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My only concern with the release schedule is that between now and Worlds, there will probably be a release of something. But, there really isn't anything during this time to play. If they want to keep this kind of release schedule, then they should figure out a system of events that keep things going most of (if not all) the year. 

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You don't have to get one or two of everything.  FFG and other games capitalize on this misconception.  I got into x-wing when Scum came out (wave 6 I think)  I don't think I've flown a tie fighter, e-wing,  or xwing more than a couple of times since then.  I've never flown a defender or tie interceptor or probably several other ships.  There are dozens of cards I have never used in x-wing.  I feel the same way about Imperial Assault.  You will probably need the core set for a while longer, just to get you in the game and get your own dice, etc.  But eventually, cards will begin to duplicate or be eliminated and really, you'll be able to play what you want, once the game has been around long enough.  I don't think it hurts the community, in fact the opposite, is true.  If you were going to pick up the game, you'd want to have lots of cool options to pick through.  the only reason I got into the game is because I won some money at a tournament and couldn't find an xwing ship I wanted, so I bought boba fett and dengar in IA, painted them and then decided I wanted to paint some more guys and after buying and painting a bantha and hired guns I realized I could almost field a team. Boba, dengar, bantha and hired guns and I maybe borrowed IG*88 and played a game and saw serious potential.  Then I bought the starter and it was all downhill.

 

The thing that will hurt the game more than anything is the poorly costed well-named characters and setup.  If someone saw you playing and said, " Hey Star Wars game, cool, where's Han Solo and Chewbacca?" and you replied "they suck and cost too many points, you're better off playing XXX or a bunch of no-name stormtroopers"

 

I think that hurts the game coupled with the map setup.  If you could just buy 5-6 expansion packs and make a list (not a super tourney list but a fun to play list) and weren't compelled to have all these extraneous pieces to puzzle together, then it would be easier to buy into to.  I hope they release a semi starter kit.  REBELS with dice and simple scenarios for $50-60.  Then the game would pick up. $100 puts people off, whether its actually a great deal or not, it is steep to buy into.  I don't know how many people I've seen grab 2-3 ships they thought were cool and then all of a sudden they are x-wing addicts $30-50 for some reason is not a hurdle, $100 is unless you've got someone you can play with and see how cool the game is.

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The more expansions the merrier, as long as they bring balance to the game.

When Jedi/Sith/bounty hunters/smugglers/troopers/droids/wookies etc can each field a strong list then the buy-in price will drop as new players can just buy the models they need instead of everything.

This plus a change to use printed maps will make the game more popular than ever.

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The rough release schedule seems to be 1 large expansion and 1 small expansion per year with a figure-pack wave of 2-3 new figures in between each (so 2 figure-pack waves).

That seems pretty reasonable to me for a competitive game. As a skirmish player I approve.

I can see how this might be a bit much for more casual and campaign-based players. If you're in that camp and your money is tight you should feel free to skip some things (the figure-pack waves in particular since they don't have an associated campaign).

Also, another part of the problem seems to be that all the different releases aren't spread out evenly through the year. Could be lots of reasons for this: production, shipping, holiday quarter sales, licensing, or just wanting to have new things come out at trade shows or big events. Whatever the reason, if you don't have much money or time to play, it's fine to wait for a sale or when you finish a campaign and want some thing new.

Basically, understand that the game has different play styles. Healthy skirmish play depends on several releases a year. If that's too much for you, adjust your purchases to focus on what you have the time and money for. (FWIW: I did the same thing with Magic since I only play occasionally and basically only limited or commander. It's increased my enjoyment while reducing my monetary outlay.)

Edited by nickv2002

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I don't necessarily disagree with the OP, but I do think that there were some glaring balances issues in the game that persisted for quite some time.  Largely alleviated by the Errata to Guards, Officers, and Saboteurs, but also there are STILL a lot of overpriced figures and the Scum faction is just now becoming competitively viable.

 

The game needs expansions, and when the game has issues, more expansions can correct those issues.  To put it short, every faction needs to have a similar set of choices, while still adhering to the flavor of that faction.  When X-wing was 2 years old, it had a Core Set, 4 Waves of 4 Expansions Each, a Wave of 2 Expansions, 2 Special Expansions ("Aces Packs"), and two huge ship expansions. That totals 22 expansions at its 2 year mark, and now its approaching 4 years old.  Now there are 3 more waves, each with 4 more expansions, another Wave of 4 likely to drop at GenCon, one Aces pack just released, another announced and likely at GenCon, an Episode 7 Core Set, 2 Episode 7 expansions, and two more Huge Ship Expansions.  Nearing 4 years since release, I believe I count 41 expansions, all of which contain legal options for competitive play.  Not to mention, X-wing encourages completionism even more so than Imperial Assault.  Players at the top of the competitive scene own at least one of every expansion in the game.

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My only concern with the release schedule is that between now and Worlds, there will probably be a release of something. But, there really isn't anything during this time to play. If they want to keep this kind of release schedule, then they should figure out a system of events that keep things going most of (if not all) the year. 

Summer kits release between now and then. 

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