Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
JimbonX

FFG stop making rebells expensive

Recommended Posts

ive both killed and lost Soontir in one volley. Vader has 5hp so its down to crit draws if he dies in one volley which so far ive never seen. Outside Vader, all the aces can die to a single shot if the dice rolls are that shoddy. Hell my last game with OL i literally lost him in 1 **** shot when i had my target TL'd so he couldnt mod. Rolled 2 hits and 2 crits, i rolled blanks so i burned my evade and guess what one of the two crits was a double damage anyway. This was after i perfectly eyeballed a move and managed to get right in his **** face and he could not get away due to rocks. But he was PS9, so he fired first :P

 

Ships with 5hp or more cant die in a single volley unless crit shenanigans are afoot. 4hp or less can. Lost count how many Z's ive had evaporate in 1 shot.

Difference between Imperial 5+ hull ships and Rebel is agility. The few Imp ships that are 5+ and also have good agility are usually pretty hard to take down. Z's are the only super squishy rebel ship, everything else can usually weather a bad roll but since they dont have amazing agility they usually die the next shot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ive both killed and lost Soontir in one volley. Vader has 5hp so its down to crit draws if he dies in one volley which so far ive never seen. Outside Vader, all the aces can die to a single shot if the dice rolls are that shoddy. Hell my last game with OL i literally lost him in 1 **** shot when i had my target TL'd so he couldnt mod. Rolled 2 hits and 2 crits, i rolled blanks so i burned my evade and guess what one of the two crits was a double damage anyway. This was after i perfectly eyeballed a move and managed to get right in his **** face and he could not get away due to rocks. But he was PS9, so he fired first :P

 

Ships with 5hp or more cant die in a single volley unless crit shenanigans are afoot. 4hp or less can. Lost count how many Z's ive had evaporate in 1 shot.

Difference between Imperial 5+ hull ships and Rebel is agility. The few Imp ships that are 5+ and also have good agility are usually pretty hard to take down. Z's are the only super squishy rebel ship, everything else can usually weather a bad roll but since they dont have amazing agility they usually die the next shot.

If? Yeah good luck nailing that through 4 AGI, autothrusters, a focus and an evade token, and palpatine. Soontir can roll blank blank blank focus and get a perfect 4 evades from that roll. autothrusters, focus, evade, palpatine. 4 evades. And that is a ludicrously abnormal roll. With 4 evade dice you'll almost always have 2 evade results, a focus result, and 1 blank. Given that the only time the average Rebel ship can roll more than 3 attack dice is at range 1, you can't touch Soontir.

 

The ONLY TIME that i've ever been able to one-shot soontir is the most expert T-Roll block of my life, with a focused TL'd Wedge at Range 1 making it happen, and this was pre-palp(palp had technically released by this point, but out FLGS hadn't gotten any yet). Given that his roll was evade focus blank, and i rolled 4 hits, he could have still palped to survive if palpatine had been out.

 

So just going off of that, you can still get the most insane blocking maneuver of your life on Soontir, denying any actions whatsoever, and then getting full dice mods at range 1 with Wedge, and i STILL technically couldn't have killed him in one shot, if it had just been a few weeks later.

 

I stopped counting this anecdote after Palp became popular as the way Soontir was run back then is very different to how it is now. Soontir still would have survived if we had Palp at the time. That's insane. I can't think of anything that would obliterate a ship more than 4 fully modded dice at -1 agility. And yet...

 

I've since blocked Soontir many times, and i can name 3 games where i blocked Soontir and rolled up on him with a focused TL'd Poe(as i had Dutch in that list giving him TLs) and not put a single point of damage on him, because he rolled 3 natural evades and Palp'd the last one, or when i only got 3 hits and he rolled 2 natural evades and Palp'd one, etc.

 

Calling Soontir a glass cannon isn't right at all. I would be willing to bet that Soontir lives longer on average than any other pilot in the game.

Edited by Razgriz25thinf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you literally countered your own points...twice..

 

"Soontir can roll blank blank blank focus and get a perfect 4 evades from that roll" thats impossible. Focus token, 1 evade. Evade token, 2 evades. Palp a blank, 3 evades. One hit still went through, there goes stealth device and as EVERYONE knows hes a ton easier to take out once you hit him once. Yes autos could be the 4th, but thats only range3 or out of arc. You dont spend expensive ordnance at range3 for this very **** reason and the only 4die primary weapons at range3 are unlikely to get through anyway, especially since then it's 5die for defense.

 

Your T-roll bump example is also impossible. If he bumped, he has no tokens period unless he did a red move into the block, which then he'd have a focus. Soontirs NEVER do red moves so i doubt this.

"evade, focus, blank" and you had 4 hits with Wedge. That means hes not getting autos (if they were around at that point). No tokens, so no focus. On evade. You just killed him in one **** shot. Oh wait Palp is around suddenly, hes at 1hp assuming no bad crits were given and again no stealth device.

 

Palp makes it really difficult to 1shot him i agree, but you are acting like its literally impossible to hit him at all. Not to mention you are factoring in two ships for Soontir's defense, but not 2 ships for Soontir's enemy. Unless the opposing player is flying wayyyyy too tightly, Soontir will not dodge all the arcs, he will dodge 1 on average and deal with the other 2.

 

My point wasnt its not hard to 1shot soontir. My point was it DOES HAPPEN its just rare. More than likely if Palp is around he wont die to 1 guy shooting at him, its the 2nd guy that does it.

Edited by Vineheart01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Man do I want a 2/4/2/0 rebel ship that has a terrible dial but is 10 points.

It's called Vulture droid, and we're not seeing TF too soon

 

 

I was thinking more about the ship from Rogue squad you have to fly on the training mission at the start. I think its the T-16 Skyhopper.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/T-16_skyhopper

 

I would give it a cannon upgrade and would have the shuttle dial with 1 hard turns. 2 hard turns would be white, and no stop.

Edited by Cubanboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you literally countered your own points...twice..

 

"Soontir can roll blank blank blank focus and get a perfect 4 evades from that roll" thats impossible. Focus token, 1 evade. Evade token, 2 evades. Palp a blank, 3 evades. One hit still went through, there goes stealth device and as EVERYONE knows hes a ton easier to take out once you hit him once. Yes autos could be the 4th, but thats only range3 or out of arc. You dont spend expensive ordnance at range3 for this very **** reason and the only 4die primary weapons at range3 are unlikely to get through anyway, especially since then it's 5die for defense.

 

Your T-roll bump example is also impossible. If he bumped, he has no tokens period unless he did a red move into the block, which then he'd have a focus. Soontirs NEVER do red moves so i doubt this.

"evade, focus, blank" and you had 4 hits with Wedge. That means hes not getting autos (if they were around at that point). No tokens, so no focus. On evade. You just killed him in one **** shot. Oh wait Palp is around suddenly, hes at 1hp assuming no bad crits were given and again no stealth device.

 

Palp makes it really difficult to 1shot him i agree, but you are acting like its literally impossible to hit him at all. Not to mention you are factoring in two ships for Soontir's defense, but not 2 ships for Soontir's enemy. Unless the opposing player is flying wayyyyy too tightly, Soontir will not dodge all the arcs, he will dodge 1 on average and deal with the other 2.

AUTOTHRUSTERS! It's not my fault you didn't read the **** post. Autothrusters converts the last blank. 4 evades.

 

Yes! He had no tokens! That's what i said! BECAUSE HE BUMPED! If palpatine had been out, palp could have turned the blank or the focus into an evade, and soontir would have taken only 2 damage, not enough to kill him. Thus, on a perfect range 1 roll with wedge, as long as soontir rolls one evade result and palp hasnt been used, it is impossible to one shot Soontir. You'd need a crit with a direct hit as your second damage. That's exactly what i'm saying. Soontir would have to completely blank out, or otherwise be super unlucky with the crit pull and at that point i DESERVE the one shot after going through the effort necessary to block soontir, and set up a range 1 fully modded wedge shot. 

 

I havent contradicted myself at all. You just didn't correctly read my post.

 

It's ridiculous the amount of effort you can put in to kill soontir and get nothing out of it. The same thing does not apply back to Rebel ships. Rebel ships have an expiration date that Imperial Aces do not. You know exactly when a Rebel ship is going to die. But you can even strip the stealth device off soontir, and you're still not sure when he'll die.

 

And for all of that, Soontir still costs less than most Rebel Aces. On average 3-5 points less than Poe, 10-12 points less than Corran, and a mere 1-2 points more than Jake. Don't even get me started on pilots like the Inquisitor or Omega Leader. Super cheap pocket aces that do nothing but bolster a squad. Rebels don't have those. We've got Jake? His most efficient build costs as much as 34 points though, because you need those prockets to be offensively viable. Not really a pocket ace by that cost.

Edited by Razgriz25thinf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes i did read your post.

Autos do not work unless range3, which means he would roll 5 dice. Since you said 4 dice, lets assume its a turret firing out of arc. Yes, he would still get all 4 evades. Know what? WHO CARES because now he has 0 tokens and no palp. Again, ship#2 is about to have a field day.

You cannot face aces in a nutshell, especially if palp is factored in. NEVER fire at one at range3 unless its a potshot and you have no other choice and NEVER fire out of arc for the same **** reason. Your example of the block is one of the best ways to deal with them, and while yes he would be alive if palp had been there he would be flying away with brown pants because if ANY more damage went through hes done.

 

Again, i repeat myself. I did NOT SAY its easy to 1shot soontir. i SAID it CAN happen and i have done it/had it happen to me several times. There are way too many factors in this situation to discuss it, after all if he arc-dodges guess what hes missing a token or two and now that 1 ship that does have a shot could potentially do some nasty damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes i did read your post.

Autos do not work unless range3, which means he would roll 5 dice. Since you said 4 dice, lets assume its a turret firing out of arc. Yes, he would still get all 4 evades. Know what? WHO CARES because now he has 0 tokens and no palp. Again, ship#2 is about to have a field day.

You cannot face aces in a nutshell, especially if palp is factored in. NEVER fire at one at range3 unless its a potshot and you have no other choice and NEVER fire out of arc for the same **** reason. Your example of the block is one of the best ways to deal with them, and while yes he would be alive if palp had been there he would be flying away with brown pants because if ANY more damage went through hes done.

 

Again, i repeat myself. I did NOT SAY its easy to 1shot soontir. i SAID it CAN happen and i have done it/had it happen to me several times. There are way too many factors in this situation to discuss it, after all if he arc-dodges guess what hes missing a token or two and now that 1 ship that does have a shot could potentially do some nasty damage.

Yes, which is what he should get for rolling all blanks. The point is still that he took no damage anyways. Palp Aces is the only list in the game that can almost completely blank out on a defense roll, and still take no damage. Chances are they won't blank out, though. Not with 3+ defense dice. Even IF you have no more modifiers after that, Soontir has the raw defense dice to still dodge some damage by himself. Rebel ships have neither of those things. They have poor agility, poor maneveurability so they're taking all the shots that turn, and almost no defensive modifiers. That's why 8 health protected by 1 agility lives far, far less than 3 health protected by 4 agility and modifiers galore. 

 

If Poe blanks out on a defense roll, unless he's at range 3 or out of arc, chances are he will lose all of his shields right there. And since Rebel ships are by and large less maneuverable, he's probably taking another shot after that. So it's entirely reasonable that he could straight up die on turn 1 of shooting. That's how defense dice works for EVERY OTHER LIST IN THE GAME BUT PALP ACES. It's broken. 

Edited by Razgriz25thinf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

ive both killed and lost Soontir in one volley. Vader has 5hp so its down to crit draws if he dies in one volley which so far ive never seen. Outside Vader, all the aces can die to a single shot if the dice rolls are that shoddy. Hell my last game with OL i literally lost him in 1 **** shot when i had my target TL'd so he couldnt mod. Rolled 2 hits and 2 crits, i rolled blanks so i burned my evade and guess what one of the two crits was a double damage anyway. This was after i perfectly eyeballed a move and managed to get right in his **** face and he could not get away due to rocks. But he was PS9, so he fired first :P

 

Ships with 5hp or more cant die in a single volley unless crit shenanigans are afoot. 4hp or less can. Lost count how many Z's ive had evaporate in 1 shot.

Difference between Imperial 5+ hull ships and Rebel is agility. The few Imp ships that are 5+ and also have good agility are usually pretty hard to take down. Z's are the only super squishy rebel ship, everything else can usually weather a bad roll but since they dont have amazing agility they usually die the next shot.

If? Yeah good luck nailing that through 4 AGI, autothrusters, a focus and an evade token, and palpatine. Soontir can roll blank blank blank focus and get a perfect 4 evades from that roll. autothrusters, focus, evade, palpatine. 4 evades. And that is a ludicrously abnormal roll. With 4 evade dice you'll almost always have 2 evade results, a focus result, and 1 blank. Given that the only time the average Rebel ship can roll more than 3 attack dice is at range 1, you can't touch Soontir.

 

The ONLY TIME that i've ever been able to one-shot soontir is the most expert T-Roll block of my life, with a focused TL'd Wedge at Range 1 making it happen, and this was pre-palp(palp had technically released by this point, but out FLGS hadn't gotten any yet). Given that his roll was evade focus blank, and i rolled 4 hits, he could have still palped to survive if palpatine had been out.

 

So just going off of that, you can still get the most insane blocking maneuver of your life on Soontir, denying any actions whatsoever, and then getting full dice mods at range 1 with Wedge, and i STILL technically couldn't have killed him in one shot, if it had just been a few weeks later.

 

I stopped counting this anecdote after Palp became popular as the way Soontir was run back then is very different to how it is now. Soontir still would have survived if we had Palp at the time. That's insane. I can't think of anything that would obliterate a ship more than 4 fully modded dice at -1 agility. And yet...

 

I've since blocked Soontir many times, and i can name 3 games where i blocked Soontir and rolled up on him with a focused TL'd Poe(as i had Dutch in that list giving him TLs) and not put a single point of damage on him, because he rolled 3 natural evades and Palp'd the last one, or when i only got 3 hits and he rolled 2 natural evades and Palp'd one, etc.

 

Calling Soontir a glass cannon isn't right at all. I would be willing to bet that Soontir lives longer on average than any other pilot in the game.

 

 

Just curious. I thought we were comparing base ships to base ships. Are we comparing fully modified Soontir with Palpatine running around and saying they are better then naked Rebel fighters that have only their shields and hull to rely on?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

ive both killed and lost Soontir in one volley. Vader has 5hp so its down to crit draws if he dies in one volley which so far ive never seen. Outside Vader, all the aces can die to a single shot if the dice rolls are that shoddy. Hell my last game with OL i literally lost him in 1 **** shot when i had my target TL'd so he couldnt mod. Rolled 2 hits and 2 crits, i rolled blanks so i burned my evade and guess what one of the two crits was a double damage anyway. This was after i perfectly eyeballed a move and managed to get right in his **** face and he could not get away due to rocks. But he was PS9, so he fired first :P

 

Ships with 5hp or more cant die in a single volley unless crit shenanigans are afoot. 4hp or less can. Lost count how many Z's ive had evaporate in 1 shot.

Difference between Imperial 5+ hull ships and Rebel is agility. The few Imp ships that are 5+ and also have good agility are usually pretty hard to take down. Z's are the only super squishy rebel ship, everything else can usually weather a bad roll but since they dont have amazing agility they usually die the next shot.

If? Yeah good luck nailing that through 4 AGI, autothrusters, a focus and an evade token, and palpatine. Soontir can roll blank blank blank focus and get a perfect 4 evades from that roll. autothrusters, focus, evade, palpatine. 4 evades. And that is a ludicrously abnormal roll. With 4 evade dice you'll almost always have 2 evade results, a focus result, and 1 blank. Given that the only time the average Rebel ship can roll more than 3 attack dice is at range 1, you can't touch Soontir.

 

The ONLY TIME that i've ever been able to one-shot soontir is the most expert T-Roll block of my life, with a focused TL'd Wedge at Range 1 making it happen, and this was pre-palp(palp had technically released by this point, but out FLGS hadn't gotten any yet). Given that his roll was evade focus blank, and i rolled 4 hits, he could have still palped to survive if palpatine had been out.

 

So just going off of that, you can still get the most insane blocking maneuver of your life on Soontir, denying any actions whatsoever, and then getting full dice mods at range 1 with Wedge, and i STILL technically couldn't have killed him in one shot, if it had just been a few weeks later.

 

I stopped counting this anecdote after Palp became popular as the way Soontir was run back then is very different to how it is now. Soontir still would have survived if we had Palp at the time. That's insane. I can't think of anything that would obliterate a ship more than 4 fully modded dice at -1 agility. And yet...

 

I've since blocked Soontir many times, and i can name 3 games where i blocked Soontir and rolled up on him with a focused TL'd Poe(as i had Dutch in that list giving him TLs) and not put a single point of damage on him, because he rolled 3 natural evades and Palp'd the last one, or when i only got 3 hits and he rolled 2 natural evades and Palp'd one, etc.

 

Calling Soontir a glass cannon isn't right at all. I would be willing to bet that Soontir lives longer on average than any other pilot in the game.

 

 

Just curious. I thought we were comparing base ships to base ships. Are we comparing fully modified Soontir with Palpatine running around and saying they are better then naked Rebel fighters that have only their shields and hull to rely on?

 

i'm comparing optimal builds to optimal builds. The only generics that Imps run are Black Squad Pilots. Rebels don't really have anything in the meta anyways, but i'm comparing the best we've got against the best Imps have.

 

I'm just being practical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And all these "overcosted" rebel ships have at least 3 shields and are almost impossible to 1 shot so quit your whining.

And Soontir isn't? I havent one-shot a Soontir Fel EVER.

Losing Soontir to one shot is the usually way to go, right after you get blocked. Otherwise Soontir is supposed to never ever die. ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i'm comparing optimal builds to optimal builds. The only generics that Imps run are Black Squad Pilots. Rebels don't really have anything in the meta anyways, but i'm comparing the best we've got against the best Imps have.

 

I'm just being practical.

 

Okay no problem. I thought we moved from most rebels are hard to one-shot to 'well yeah a fully modified Soontir with Palpitine can't be one-shot either."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

i'm comparing optimal builds to optimal builds. The only generics that Imps run are Black Squad Pilots. Rebels don't really have anything in the meta anyways, but i'm comparing the best we've got against the best Imps have.

 

I'm just being practical.

 

Okay no problem. I thought we moved from most rebels are hard to one-shot to 'well yeah a fully modified Soontir with Palpitine can't be one-shot either."

 

I mean, the reason why i brought it up is that ships like the Interceptor were supposed to be reliant on maneuvering, where if you got them in arc with a good shot, you could reasonably one shot them. You can't do that anymore though. So yeah, you can't one shot Rebels. But the ships that are supposed to die to a one-shotting don't really die to a one-shotting, if they ever take damage at all. That's really the ultimate point. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree with the general premise that rebels are overcosted. I think there is one real problem:

 

1. JumpMasters occupy the same game space as [most] rebels (jousters) and are much more efficient than the rebel options in this category

 

JumpMasters are too good as they can alpha pretty much anything the rebels can play with a couple of exceptions (a-wing swarm being the main list I'm thinking of). I don't think the torpedo/missile upgrades were too powerful per se, but that a ship that can take pretty much all of these upgrades in combination at the approx. 33 pt mark was poor design.

 

Potential solutions then are either to stop JumpMasters being able to add all the upgrades they do (the route FFG seems to be taking with the recent FAQ change) or to increase the cost of the JumpMaster so you can't take 3 of them in a list (unlikely).

 

The current meta seems very similar to the Phantom meta in many ways. We only saw a couple of builds but the only real problem was the Phantom. Once it got nerfed the rest of the meta was allowed to play again. I think the same is going on here.

 

[edit: this post exploded while I was writing!]

Edited by John Rainbow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not every Imperial build uses the emperor. the last 2 tournaments I have won have been with Imperial builds without using the emperor

It's a matter of preference. You can choose to field a third ace or take just two with some very serious back-up with your dice. Palp Aces still win far more tournaments than any other Imperial build, you can't deny this. Just because YOU don't run Palp and you still win doesn't mean that Palp isn't dominating the competitive meta.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW: You know what the biggest strength of palp aces, especially Fel is? Tilting your opponent, which might be a reason why Fel never wins a big tourney, while creating tons of rage rants on the forums.

nce an opponent is tilted he becomes easy prey. I had people giving up to me, while my dial was set to an asteroid ride which would have killed my Soontir for sure. I had literally to convince the guy not take it back and just play on more round.

Bad Players tilt about a few funny roles which save Soontir instead of keeping their game up and methodically flying for a win.

edit: And yeah, Palp aces are winning, ironically without Soontir Fel. And let's not forget that A-Wing crackswarm rocks. ^-^

Edited by SEApocalypse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW: You know what the biggest strength of palp aces, especially Fel is? Tilting your opponent, which might be a reason why Fel never wins a big tourney, while creating tons of rage rants on the forums.

 

What is "Tilting"?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tilting

"When your so pissed off from losing multiple amount of games that you play worse and worse till your so pissed you begin leaning over your keyboard screaming over every little mistake you make and complaining about gaming imbalances"

In this case naturally you get pissed about Soontir and your or their dice. I have seen people literally throwing their ships across the room, because tilting. :)

That one hit kill can literally happen anytime … well or sometimes it becomes a two-hit, hurray for palp, but in the end you are playing a dice game with soontir. And Soontir is clearly not the house in this gambling, eventually he will lose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"I want my raw dice efficient ships to be so efficient you can't beat them with skill or luck"

Not a great idea.

The terrorists don't have that many like minded friends so thier ships have to protect them. It's not that they value life more it's that they value the lives of thier fellow terrorists more so they buy shield protectors to protect thier buddies. Shields cost 1 more point or so each in the game over hull. If you have 2-5 more shields than a similar ship without, you have to pay for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another welfare for the Rebels thread?

 

No way. They already get tons of shields AND regen. Every other turn is the 1st or 15th for these fat queens. Pony up and pay your own way Red team. I hope the next 5 ships FFG makes for are fast, dodgy, 2 attack dice and have zero synergy. You'll be running back the cozy R3 bubble that all your special pilot abilities blanket the playmat with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rebels had their day in the sun. This is how they're meant to be, high attack, low agility, high hitpoints, and slow maneuvering. If you don't like it, play Imperials or Scum.

Don't like the poor balancing of the game? Play a faction other than the one you enjoy running!

 

Feel like one faction is dominating more than the others because of design imbalance? Just join that faction and you won't lose anymore! Problem solved!

 

Another welfare for the Rebels thread?

 

No way. They already get tons of shields AND regen. Every other turn is the 1st or 15th for these fat queens. Pony up and pay your own way Red team. I hope the next 5 ships FFG makes for are fast, dodgy, 2 attack dice and have zero synergy. You'll be running back the cozy R3 bubble that all your special pilot abilities blanket the playmat with.

Fat lot of good that's doing Rebels right now, innit?

 

"WHAT?! YOU THINK THIS FACTION IS UNDERPOWERED?! BUT WHAT ABOUT

  1. ?! THEY'RE SO GOOD WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!"
Edited by Razgriz25thinf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...