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Mogrok

New tournament update snuck in

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Do laser pointer even count as a tool at all?  All they are doing is telling you what the arc is, and that's on the ship base already.

I agree with this. The laser doesn't alter anything with its measurement except faulty estimating.

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Its the right move, I think, because someone is more likely to benefit from someone conceding in frustration, or due to time constraints or other factors.

 

In fact, in all the tournaments I've been to, people conceding or dropping out usually happened because they had an outside emergency OR a personality conflict with the opponent.

So why in either situation is it a good thing to have a player possibly docked points because their opponent decided to concede?

If a guy gets a call from his kids and has to split mid-round, how can it possibly be correct for him to possible hurt his opponents standing through having to concede and leave?

Regardless of the reason for a concession the winning player has to be awarded whatever is the maximum possible points they could have scored had the game gone on. So 400 minus whatever points have already been scored by the conceding player.

Otherwise you create a situation in which you can concede to hurt your opponent standings (losing by any margin may be already ruining yours). While it could fall under unsportsmanlike conduct, that is going to be an incredibly hard call to get TOs to make, and doesn't help remedy the situation for the other player.

And again as mentioned why should a player that has to concede due to some outside issue, have to possibly risk hurting their opponents standing?

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No, but being DQ'd for poor sportsmanship can get you suspended from future FFG events....  If someone were to follow it up.  (Even after the fact)

The issue is, will that player actually get disqualified? We don't have a judges guide but if people are being disqualified for not wanting to finish a horrible loss you may find more of a toxic tournament scene.

This is added on to by the fact that the player who is conceding is losing the hope for any amount of points. They are getting penalized to start.

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...  I wasn't going to say it...  I wasn't going to say it...  I'm glad someone else did...  because I didn't want to say it....

 

Wuss. :P

 

 

....  if I pretend to be polite, these Rabid Canadians won't realise that I'm actually not one of them........

 

...  you have no idea how hard it is, to live this way.

 

Rabid Canadians....if you're ever in trouble, throw a puck on the ground and run. They will ignore you completely..... :D

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I think that rule on concessions is in place to minimize collusion also.

Except it doesn't. It makes collusion easier. If a concession nets your opponent anything but the max VP, you can use concession as a tool for collusion.

I would have left it at winner gets 10 and 400MOV, concession gets 0VP, 0MOV

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I think that rule on concessions is in place to minimize collusion also.

Except it doesn't. It makes collusion easier. If a concession nets your opponent anything but the max VP, you can use concession as a tool for collusion.

I would have left it at winner gets 10 and 400MOV, concession gets 0VP, 0MOV

 

I disagree because if your point of concession is to collude to give your friend more points then the old system would give them 10 points and the new system only gives them 8 or am I missing something obvious here in your statement.  :)

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I think that rule on concessions is in place to minimize collusion also.

Except it doesn't. It makes collusion easier. If a concession nets your opponent anything but the max VP, you can use concession as a tool for collusion.

I would have left it at winner gets 10 and 400MOV, concession gets 0VP, 0MOV

 

I disagree because if your point of concession is to collude to give your friend more points then the old system would give them 10 points and the new system only gives them 8 or am I missing something obvious here in your statement.  :)

Overdawg is correct. Scooping to team members in important tournaments is a fairly common and controversial strategy in higher-level Warmachine tournaments. I believe FFG was considering this when creating the current concession rules.

 

The problem being, of course, that you can always deliberately play terribly to give an opponent a 10-1 win. Or concede out of spite to limit the number of points your opponent gets.

 

When FFG redoes the tournament rules, I would like if they specified that the conceder receives 0 points and the victor receives their current number (as if the game ended immediately) or 8, whichever is highest, and then the associated margin of victory. This doesn't punish the winner if an opponent rage-quits because they were getting tabled.

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The issue is, will that player actually get disqualified? We don't have a judges guide but if people are being disqualified for not wanting to finish a horrible loss you may find more of a toxic tournament scene.

 

 

No, you'll have a smaller tournament scene.  There is a difference.

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I think that rule on concessions is in place to minimize collusion also.

Except it doesn't. It makes collusion easier. If a concession nets your opponent anything but the max VP, you can use concession as a tool for collusion.

I would have left it at winner gets 10 and 400MOV, concession gets 0VP, 0MOV

I disagree because if your point of concession is to collude to give your friend more points then the old system would give them 10 points and the new system only gives them 8 or am I missing something obvious here in your statement.  :)

Overdawg is correct. Scooping to team members in important tournaments is a fairly common and controversial strategy in higher-level Warmachine tournaments. I believe FFG was considering this when creating the current concession rules.

 

The problem being, of course, that you can always deliberately play terribly to give an opponent a 10-1 win. Or concede out of spite to limit the number of points your opponent gets.

 

When FFG redoes the tournament rules, I would like if they specified that the conceder receives 0 points and the victor receives their current number (as if the game ended immediately) or 8, whichever is highest, and then the associated margin of victory. This doesn't punish the winner if an opponent rage-quits because they were getting tabled.

Except this is the only FFG game in which a player scores less points if his opponent decides to concede.

I don't think you can say this is FFG wanting to prevent collusion amongst teammates when this is the only one of their products that has this type of ruling for concessions. You can't say this game has more of a "team" scene then say X-wing or AGOT, so why does it require a rule uniquely geared to that end?

Additionally this scoring change does nothing to prevent that type of collusion, it just changes the scenario that it be applicable in. Rather then scooping to your buddy to drive up his score, you now scope to an opponent to hurt theirs in comparison to your buddy. In actuality because it is less likely that two friends be paired with each other in a larger group then against others, it actually presents even more opportunities for collusion.

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Direct question to those that thing this I'd a good change.

A guy has to leave mid round because he has an an emergency, why should his opponent be possibly penalized because the other player can't continue?

Edited by ScottieATF

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My comment was intended for a scenario where you face an opponent who is going to wipe you. So, you concede to deny them the extra 2VP and try to give a friend a small one up in VP scoring at the end of round.

I don't care about the situation where you play the friend. If concession gives them 8, not 10, then you just play badly and lose big to get them the 400MOV. Whether they get 8 or 10 from a concede won't stop you from throwing a game.

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When FFG redoes the tournament rules, I would like if they specified that the conceder receives 0 points and the victor receives their current number (as if the game ended immediately) or 8, whichever is highest, and then the associated margin of victory. This doesn't punish the winner if an opponent rage-quits because they were getting tabled.

This is my thinking as well although I would allow the victor to perform 1 more activation of all his ships and squadrons before calculating MoV (or accept 8-0).

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My comment was intended for a scenario where you face an opponent who is going to wipe you. So, you concede to deny them the extra 2VP and try to give a friend a small one up in VP scoring at the end of round.

I don't care about the situation where you play the friend. If concession gives them 8, not 10, then you just play badly and lose big to get them the 400MOV. Whether they get 8 or 10 from a concede won't stop you from throwing a game.

If you are getting beat so bad that you believe you are going to be tabled then its likely they will do that by the end of the round in which case the concession rules dont matter because you cant concede until the round ends.  If you tell me that you think you will be tabled in 2-3 rounds then I will tell you that you havent played enough Armada because I dont know how many games I thought I had lost only to come back and win in the end and visa versa.  So at least from my experience I dont agree with your statement but I am sure others have had different experiences.

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My question is...

How fast can you throw a game without it being blatantly obvious? :D

Most people are so consumed with their game they dont notice what is going on around them and the TOs are not like watchdogs analyzing every table so I suspect it would not be that hard. 

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My question is...

How fast can you throw a game without it being blatantly obvious? :D

Most people are so consumed with their game they dont notice what is going on around them and the TOs are not like watchdogs analyzing every table so I suspect it would not be that hard.

I think my joking comment was mostly for those people who say that points should calculate as if you ended the game that turn vs automatic points. But I suppose you could throw a game in the same way a new player could unintentionally screw up as badly as to appear the same.

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Mid-round, is a game likely to be seen as being a 9-2 or 10-1 at that point in time?

In many scenarios, yes the scores should be seen as possible, if not plausible. If you are getting beat 10-0 especially, but even 9-1, you can likely see that writing on the wall.

Is there a reason to not have concessions just award the full 400 points to the winner with the loser getting whatever they've scored up to that point?

The opportunity for collusion is no less under this 8-0 system then it is under the old 10-0, or would be under what I just suggested. So cui bono?

Under this new system the guy that is getting thrashed and decides that he has had enough and doesn't want to finish a game in which he is no longer getting any enjoyment from would now be a huge jerk for waving the white flag. Not only would he be a huge jerk for not wanting to have to sit there and continue taking his beating, the TO would have to put thought into whether not wanting to sit and be pummeled would constitute unsportsmanlike conduct. That is beyond stupid. Let the guy tap out, don't make him stand there and play out a game he no longer has any interest in solely because not doing so would be a **** move to an opponent that just so happened to be beating him by a wide margin.

Edited by ScottieATF

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Is there a reason to not have concessions just award the full 400 points to the winner with the loser getting whatever they've scored up to that point?

There is - if the concession happens for any reason other then actually losing a game (someone needs to leave, someone didn't have all required components and is forced to concede etc) there is a strong argument to treat it as a regular bye for the winner.

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People keep bringing up the point of the conceder who has to leave potentially robbing you of 2 points but frankly it could go either way so it's a push.

 

For all you know the guy that got conceded to was losing bad and his opponent had to leave, in which case people should be whining that 8 is too high!

 

I think if you look at the average concession it has more to do with outside circumstances than with being on a path to getting tabled 10-1. Frankly to craft a rule assuming a MAJORITY of players are jerks is a bad way to do business, I have far more faith in the Armada community than that. Its always best to craft a rule for the most likely scenario not the unsportsmanlike fringe element.

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Just absolute personal raw opinion here, which isn't going ot make me any friends:


Sorry.  I guess I'm just of the opinion that the sort of person who is going to, for lack of a better term, throw a tantrum and concede mid-game because he's lost all enjoyment of the game - should walk.  Walk away.  Walk out of the store and walk home.  

Games sometime suck.

 

If you're the sort of person who does this, I feel you should get that in check before you start playing, or you don't play.  Because you're basically saying "You know what, there's a chance out there that I'm going to go and ruin someone elses game, and its going to be all my fault."

Don't ruin other people's games.

 

I'd rather have a 8 man tournament of people enjoying every game, come what may, then a 20 man tournament with people who wouldn't...

 

But that's me, raw and personal...

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I would much prefer all Armada tournaments to be simple double-elimination. No messy points and MVP, objectives become much more relevant instead of having to always play a super-aggressive build just to complete, big events don't take forever, and there would be no needed for trying to figure out how to handle drops and forfeits and byes.

 

Simple.

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My comment was intended for a scenario where you face an opponent who is going to wipe you. So, you concede to deny them the extra 2VP and try to give a friend a small one up in VP scoring at the end of round.

I don't care about the situation where you play the friend. If concession gives them 8, not 10, then you just play badly and lose big to get them the 400MOV. Whether they get 8 or 10 from a concede won't stop you from throwing a game.

If you are getting beat so bad that you believe you are going to be tabled then its likely they will do that by the end of the round in which case the concession rules dont matter because you cant concede until the round ends.  If you tell me that you think you will be tabled in 2-3 rounds then I will tell you that you havent played enough Armada because I dont know how many games I thought I had lost only to come back and win in the end and visa versa.  So at least from my experience I dont agree with your statement but I am sure others have had different experiences.

I am providing an example of a situation where not awarding full points provides an advantage for collusion. Your points about it not being that eaay are fair.

Personally, I keep playing well after defeat looks certain. I have (like you) pulled a few wins out of nowhere on turn 5/6. That was my last game. Yavaris went crazy and wiped a lightly damaged ISD and a Raider in 2 turns.

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