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The_Brown_Bomber

Is the punisher broken?

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It's a cool ship that really needs some love. Yes, Redline is a fun ship to fly, but it is way too expensive to use it like it was designed to be used; plus, if this ordnance carrier was actually designed to do it's job (ie. get the ordinance to the target) it would be a (real) shield protected ship (not weak like it is). FFG dropped the ball on this one...sad.

swx34_preview.jpg

 

"()" text added to remove saltiness

Edited by clanofwolves

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 if this ordnance carrier was actually designed to do it's job (ie. get the ordinance to the target) it would be a shield protected ship. FFG dropped the ball on this one...sad.

 

it is a shielded ship - just not shielded enough. Same amount of shields as a Y-wing, a TIE Defender, an E-wing, etc.

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 if this ordnance carrier was actually designed to do it's job (ie. get the ordinance to the target) it would be a shield protected ship. FFG dropped the ball on this one...sad.

 

it is a shielded ship - just not shielded enough. Same amount of shields as a Y-wing, a TIE Defender, an E-wing, etc.

Yes, I didn't put the adjective in to be correct, I was being a bit salty, thanks....it's like it's Monday or something....I'll wake up, promise haha.

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Running Deathrain (proton bombs, conner net, EM and TIE Mk II) with Soontir and Omega Leader has had some decent results in casual play.  Only lost Deathrain once in three games after it killed half the other guys list, then I proceeded to botch up Fel (never got hit, but could never finish off his two ships either)   The other games, he Conner Netted and Proton Bombed his way to the general annoyance of the opponents.

 

"I really hate that Deathrain guy" was the quote of the night I think.

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Sorry guys, but I really don't understand what you mean :)

 

The Punisher is a true beast, especially Redline is a pretty evil ship. It does 4 damage (proton torpedo) everytime it fires at somebody.

 

I don't think that it's broken, it's extremely dangerous actually.

 

I don't really know why it doesn't appear "in the meta" more often, which means... the Pros won't take it the the tournaments for some reason.

But actually it doesn't mean it's bad. Have you tried Redline yourself?

 

It has got 9 hitpoints, which means that it is more durable than any B-Wing, or Y-Wing or whatever else. Usually you cannot kill it as quickly as you need to... then it fires and hurts somebody really badly.

 

T-65 Xwings could even get a one-shot, if there is one or two really bad Crits in the Torpedo hit.

Edited by Schu81

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personally i think the punisher's pricing issue is a compounded one.

 

Look at the bomber. Punishers are basically just super-bombers with shields and more ordnance tubes (which for some reason is only shown with 1 bomb slot...).

Cheapest bomber is 16pts bare. Cheapest Punisher is 21. Considering 3 shields and sensor slot, id say its worth 4pts more so not that badly priced between the two in a vacuum (in the meta both are bad lol)

Most expensive bomber is 26, while most expensive Punisher is 27. This is the issue. The deciding factor as to which ship to use literally isnt cost, its the EPT and pilot abilities...which the bomber wins on both since Sensors are nice but not glorious on their own. Redline is niche, can be a major threat, but rarely is. Deathrain is gimicky and fun to mess with, but again overpriced since in order to use his bombs hes probably getting hit with 4die reliable attacks. The 26pt bomber, on the other hand, can completely remove the deadzones of a weapon. Thats a hell of a lot better to me, but in the end hes still overpriced so never used.

 

How can you make the Punisher cheaper without making its little brother cheaper? That makes no sense, so the punisher costs more even if it shouldnt cost more purely because another similar ship is already overpriced (excluding Vet pilots since they just popped up).

 

By default it was shafted in the points unless FFG gave it a ton of ship-specific toys to play with. Which afaik at the time of the Punisher release wasnt a common thing. Now with all these titles adding abilities rather than slots or actions i have hopes eventually the Punisher and even other ships will get one too.

 

Punisher and Decimator should be paired for another "Veterans" type release. Call it the "Imperial Heavy Reinforcements" or something. Decimator isnt in AS bad of a state since it still gets used a ton casually at least, but its also a little suffering. Include titles that add new abilities as well as some new toys like every kit does. A new mine that doesnt roll for damage would be sweet, even if its only 1hit per token overlapped.

Edited by Vineheart01

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 if this ordnance carrier was actually designed to do it's job (ie. get the ordinance to the target) it would be a shield protected ship. FFG dropped the ball on this one...sad.

 

it is a shielded ship - just not shielded enough. Same amount of shields as a Y-wing, a TIE Defender, an E-wing, etc.

 

 

Maybe a double-missile or double-torpedo TIE Punisher-only upgrade that gives the Punisher 2-3 more hull or shields?

Edited by gerrylum

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So the punisher is now casual ship that is actually good in epic play?

imo any fix for it is a long way off. it is overcosted and has underpowered stats. if its generic pilots were cheap it might get used a bit more but at its current price it is hardly a filler ship.

The name pilots are going to soak up 50pts or so to be playable imo.

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...or not spend its targetlock/focus when instructed to...

 

I like this suggestion, if action economy the key issue to address...

(since it subtly buffs attack potency)

 

...as a Punisher/B-Wing only System would be great (as already mentioned).

 

- - - 

 

All those extra pods, but only 1 extra bomb slot bugs me...

 

...I'd like to see a 0pt Title that allows you to equip EM for free (thus a 2pt discount on the build) AND CHOOSE which slot it consumes - thereby giving you flexibility to decide to double-up on Torps if you prefer that weapon type.

- - -

 

Maybe a double-missile or double-torpedo TIE Punisher-only upgrade that gives the Punisher 2-3 more hull or shields?

The issue I have with this is it consumes slots that are supposed to reflect the TP for what it is.

I'd think Title is the best avenue, there's already competition in the Mod's slot and removing GC or LRS as options further detracts from it's signature role, and it would be a shame to remove the diversity of builds by taking the System slot for a defensive buff.

 

Additionally, rather than just extra shields, I'd like to see some unique (TP only) effect brought in - like "At the beginning of the Combat phase, discard this card and place a Weapons Disabled token on this ship to recover your Shields back to their starting value."... but how much extra cost for such an ability?...

Edited by ABXY

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The way I see it is if you aren't using the systems upgrade you might as well use a bomber (as other people have said for being cheaper). The punisher doesn't have an EPT, and systems upgrades are kinda on the low/weak side so why not kill two birds with one stone and make the systems upgrade the punisher's "ept" something that can be used on the lambda too but without it just being a systems upgrade that says "You gain an EPT". Advance sensors is pretty good. sensor jammer is a little costly, FCS everyone likes it because its cheap and really useful. Enhance scops has its uses. Acc. correctors could be the new FCS for clusters (they still work despite the new faq right?) A punisher version of the ADV.targeting computer could be nice (not an exact copy of course but maybe something along the lines of "You may preform two attacks from secondary weapons in combat" or "After making an attack you may drop a bomb with the "ACTION" header." This could bring a lot of life in many ships with system upgrades. It can make a more offensive lambda, B-wings turn into heavy hitters, brobots become very very scary again...., I don't know just tossing ideas out there.

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Systems upgrade is pretty much the only draw to it over the bomber. Like i said before, Deathrain is fun and can really throw people off when you zoom at their face and dump a mine on it (any mine is pretty mean, ever dumped clusters on a large ship? roll 6 dice NOW!! lol). Problem is its really hard to keep a ship at range 2-3 if they were at that the previous round, so Fire Control is sorta moot (since the clusters "nerf" anyway), Accuracy Corrector...LAWL why would you do that... Experimental Interface could be niche for action + minelay perhaps...might try that actually... moving at PS0 is literally only useful if youre trying the faceplant mines trick... which leaves Advance Sensors to lay Clusters before you move, since that happens quite a bit to me, or TL before a k-turn.

 

Most of the cool Sensor stuff people do is paired with an EPT or they have a good primary weapon. EPT for the most part feels way more important to me than sensor slot.

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I have used it as a Blocker and surprised people doing so using the boost to get into blocking position,    It can bomb even while blocked, one time I did 6 damage to a swarm and I took 1 myself.    That was the most successful bomb I've ever dropped.

Edited by eagletsi111

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I played a list with Redline, Deathrain, and 2 Academy ties and beat a Han and Wedge list my son was running 100-0.

Used the Ties to block and punched hard with the 2 Punishers.

Now this may not be a World level list, but it was fun and did way better that a Scum list with Talonbane, Guri, and Ndru, and some of the other lists I have experimented with lately.

Punishers can suffer against high PS aces due to positioning and focused fire can take one down quickly. I like some Academies to block and harass to take heat off the Punisher. Ties are hard to kill and can draw firepower away from your big gun.

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The name pilots are going to soak up 50pts or so to be playable imo.

How on earth are you loading up 50 points on a single Punisher? Most of my builds with either of the two named pilots top out at 38 points and the generics rarely go above 31...

Still, I don't think the Punisher itself is bad as much as they are lacking in unique options compared to the standard bomber. The systems slot only has one option currently that really synergises well with ordnance (fire control system) and the extra bomb slot is hard to take advantage of when the two biggest meta threats can either soak bomb damage or avoid them. The named pilots are both good at what they specialize in, just they don't really fit into current Imperial list archetypes (neither really benefits from Palpatine and they are too pricey to add into crack swarms).

I personally would love to see a system upgrade that allowed you to play with the detonation timing on bombs dropped by the ship carrying it. Being able to detonate a bomb immediatly after executing your maneuver or delaying it by a turn would be a huge boon for the generic Punishers and Deathrain. Scum could use such an upgrade with the IGs and Rebels could make do with Sabine on the Ghost or a B-wing.

Edit: Just as an aside, but I have been having quite a bit of fun lately with a pair of Punishers carrying Extra Munitions, Fire Control System, Guidance Chips, and Advanced Proton Torpedoes. Haven't settled on what to do with the last 34-38 points yet, but last game the Punishers nearly 1-shot a full health Ghost and one did 1-shot an Attack Shuttle after it was jettisoned.

Edited by StratN8

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The ship has enough overcost to justify a TIE/D-kind of title.

 

Quad Launchers

Title

"When attacking with a torpedo or missile secondary weapon, you may consider Attack (Target Lock): as Attack:. If you are instructed to discard a target lock token as part of the cost to attack, you may instead perform this attack twice."

Cost 0

 

For Cluster Missiles, it's just a "Deadeye+" kind of effect, because it already performs the attack twice.

For Homing Missiles and Advanced Homing Missiles, it is a "Deadeye-like" because now you are not telegraphing the target of your attack. However, you cannot perform their attack twice.

For the rest of missiles and torpedoes that use target locks, it is effectively a "Deadeye+/TIE-D" effect, you may perform the attack twice and have either a target lock or a focus, or both, to modify your attacks.

 

There you have a way to keep the same price, while not rendering Bombers useless, and reflecting this ship carries and launches much more munitions, while increasing the chance that it does something before it blows up.

This makes Redline shine with it's ability to easily modify both attacks, while generics have enough boost to their alpha strike that they might pay for their cost if they manage to release at least one double torpedo or missile attack.

Edited by Azrapse

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that said a title that drops the bomb slots for a - point value, and a second (unique) title that drops missile slots but adds an extra crew and bomb slot for 0 points would be a lot of fun

that would open up the alpha strike missile/torpedo options a bit and add a heavy heavy bomber to the game

Yea, the ability to go heavy on one or the other while not having to pay points for whichever ordinance you aren't using would be great. They don't have anywhere close to the durability necessary to load up on all ordinance and actually use it, but they seem costed for both.

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The way I see it is if you aren't using the systems upgrade you might as well use a bomber (as other people have said for being cheaper). The punisher doesn't have an EPT, and systems upgrades are kinda on the low/weak side so why not kill two birds with one stone and make the systems upgrade the punisher's "ept" something that can be used on the lambda too but without it just being a systems upgrade that says "You gain an EPT". Advance sensors is pretty good. sensor jammer is a little costly, FCS everyone likes it because its cheap and really useful. Enhance scops has its uses. Acc. correctors could be the new FCS for clusters (they still work despite the new faq right?) A punisher version of the ADV.targeting computer could be nice (not an exact copy of course but maybe something along the lines of "You may preform two attacks from secondary weapons in combat" or "After making an attack you may drop a bomb with the "ACTION" header." This could bring a lot of life in many ships with system upgrades. It can make a more offensive lambda, B-wings turn into heavy hitters, brobots become very very scary again...., I don't know just tossing ideas out there.

... Systems Upgrades are on the low-to-weak side? Are you kidding?

FCS is kind of a big deal. While more niche, Advanced Sensors and Sensor Jammers demand their respect, too.

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