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VCX-100 Light Freighter

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Ask yourself: "What does the Ghost do that requires Silhouette 4?"

Now ask yourself: "What does the Ghost do that requires Silhouette 5?"

I bet the first question gets more answers.

Edited by HappyDaze

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Punch it? Check. Gain the Advantage? Check. Evasive Maneuvers? Check. Stay on Target? Check. All those are Silhouette 4. 
As for Silhouette 5+, there are the Barrage attacks. The Ghost doesn't use them... 

 

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I agree it should be big and bulky light freighter, but still Silhouette 4. The -3 Handling as a Light Freighter makes sense in this regard, and Hera most likely has several ranks in Skilled Jockey to counter this. 

But making it a capital ship (Silhouette 5+) makes it clumsier than the Silhouette 6 Nebulon Frigate, with its handling of -1 and Speed 3, a nimbler ship. That can't be right?? But luckily, as has been mentioned, there's a quick fix. Just make it Silhouette 4. No other tweaks are needed. :)

 

Edited by Ilderfant

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31 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Ask yourself: "What does the Ghost do that requires Silhouette 4?"

Now ask yourself: "What does the Ghost do that requires Silhouette 5?"

I bet the first question gets more answers.

But , much like the old Knight Level argument, you end up with a lot of "certain point of view" because of the narrative nature of the game.

I mean, Hera brings the Ghost around to allow the chin gun a shot at a TIE fighter. Was that GtA, or an Opposed check, or just a simple "move within Close?" While GtA is certainly the most dramatic  answer, the other two can apply just as easy.

Does the Phantom dock via Clamps, or a Hanger? Again, the Clamps seem an easy solution, but that doesn't invalidate the Hanger. (And lets be honest here, a lot of people don't like the clamps for whatever reason).

The Ghost takes a lot of punishment, but is that from misses, armor, shields, a high HT? Does it matter if the Ghost has 4 arcs to move shields around in, or just 2?

Using just Rebels as the source is tough enough, but bring in books and comics and such and all you do is muddy the waters. When a novel says "Hera punched the throttle pushing everyone back into their seats" what she just accelerating really hard, or actually using "punch it?"

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Sure, but we'll have to nail it down some place. Yes, it is a narrative system, but the actions and maneuvers are inspired by the movies, series, books etc. In the Gain the Advantage example, the Ghost has two Tie fighters on its tail. Hera makes a maneuver which is seen as something very fancy, bringing the Ghost right on the tail of the Tie fighters. This is just what Gain the Advantage is described as. Also, Punch it.. turning the engines on full power to gain a burst of speed.. the Ghost does this alot. 

Capital ships are meant to be the more static ships (5+), flying mostly in straight lines, or doing long turns. But the Ghost we see ducking, diving, spinning...

I love the Star Wars rpg rules in general, but there are a couple of head scratchers in there, and this is one of them. I can't see how the devs would make the VCX-100 as a Silhouette 5. It just doesn't fly like that.. :P  

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52 minutes ago, Ilderfant said:

I agree it should be big and bulky light freighter, but still Silhouette 4. The -3 Handling as a Light Freighter makes sense in this regard, and Hera most likely has several ranks in Skilled Jockey to counter this. 

But making it a capital ship (Silhouette 5+) makes it clumsier than the Silhouette 6 Nebulon Frigate, with its handling of -1 and Speed 3, a nimbler ship. That can't be right?? But luckily, as has been mentioned, there's a quick fix. Just make it Silhouette 4. No other tweaks are needed. :)

 

If it is made Silhouette 4, the Defense ratings need to change (simple) and the HTT and SST both need to be reduced (a bit harder to judge).

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IMO, you can narrate it either way.

It could be the smallest Sil 5 ship, and everything we’ve seen happen is a result of Hera being a superb pilot, and getting stupendous piloting rolls.

It could be the largest Sil 4 ship, and everything we’ve seen happen is the result of Hera being a superb pilot, using the standard talents, and getting good piloting rolls.

Personally, I think that the reason to make it the smallest Sil 5 ship is that otherwise it would outclass the YT-1300 and YT-2400 in many respects, and that’s just not something that FFG is going to do.

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8 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

The balance of the combat system relies on the hardpoint limitations. And no, they could not have written a gorgeous system with free customizable ships. We are talking about FFG after all, they have trouble with the system as it is, they are dealing as well with a customer base which ranks balance over nearly anything else.

Lastly, those two weapons on the medial ship got not removed for hardpoint requirements to install medical equipment, after all that is just a workshop, and we have rules for those, they got removed because a lazarett ship is not supposed to be equipped with military grade weapons, they kept basically the equivalent of a small security against pirates on the ship.

A good customization system isn't automatically unbalanced, in fact it would probably be a lot more balanced. 

The passenger capacity on the Cybershop Ship is much larger than on the standard CR90, so you'd assume that the missing lasers is at least somewhat responsible for it. Ultimately it's irrelevant why they removed the weapons, what matters is that they had to print a whole new ship to do it. Stripping weapons to make more room in the ship or make it faster should be part of the basic customization system. 

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OK, here's the thing, The Phantom definitely docks in a hanger not a docking clamp. The biggest evidence of this fact is that it is completely enclosed by the Ghost when docked except for the nose of the smaller ship.  Secondly, being Silhouette 5 does not automatically make it a Capitol ship. It's simply a larger ship, a medium sized freighter instead of a light freighter.  Add to that the fact that the ship has multiple decks, also adds to the Silhouette of the ship. It is definitely a small Sil5 ship. 

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8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

OK, here's the thing, The Phantom definitely docks in a hanger not a docking clamp. The biggest evidence of this fact is that it is completely enclosed by the Ghost when docked except for the nose of the smaller ship.  Secondly, being Silhouette 5 does not automatically make it a Capitol ship. It's simply a larger ship, a medium sized freighter instead of a light freighter.  Add to that the fact that the ship has multiple decks, also adds to the Silhouette of the ship. It is definitely a small Sil5 ship. 

You're totally wrong. The Phantom isn't enclosed. A hangar would still exist in the absence of the craft it launches, but there is no structure of a hangar without the Phantom, just an empty space like a helipad. A helipad is not a hangar.

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The phantom is indeed enclosed. and yes, the hanger does still exist when the Phantom leaves. There is a visible "cut-out" in the back of the Ghost where the Phantom docks.  The Ghost has a dedicated cavity into which the Phantom docks. It isn't just a flat "landing pad" that the Phantom lands on top of. The Phantom literally plugs into the back of the Ghost. Not only that, but the crew of the Ghost can work on maintenance of the Phantom from within said hangar, and refuel the ship as well, all from within the Ghost. That is what makes it a hangar, not a docking clamp. 

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Actually, docking is used with hangars. And as for finding pics where the Phantom is not plugged in, yes, there are.

 

Here is a comparison of the Ghost both with and without the Phantom plugged in. 

 

with Phantom:

Ghost_evades_the_blockade.png

 

Without Phantom:

swf24_ghost.png

 

Note how in the second pic, there is an empty cavity where the Phantom normally plugs in, whereas in the first pic, the cavity is filled by the Phantom.  That cavity is the hangar, and encloses the entire ship except for the top and cockpit. 

 

Also, watch this video.

It specifically says that the Phantom is docked within the Ghost, and actually shows it taking off from the Ghost leaving an empty cavity. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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4 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

The video shows me that you're wrong. The Phantom sits on the top of the Ghost with its tail in a docking clamp.

No. It sits within the Ghost. Only the very top of the Phantom is  exposed. The sides, bottom, engines, etc are all completely enclosed. The Phantom doesn't lift up off of the roof, it flies out of an enclosed cavity within the back of the Ghost. The narrator of that video even specifically states that the Phantom docks within the Ghost, not onto the Ghost. That is the key word here. It docks within the Ghost. And that is what the video shows as well. The Phantom isn't landing on the roof, it's plugging into a socket in the back of the Ghost. That is a retrofitted hangar, not a docking clamp.

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I was in the army for four years, I know what a hangar is. The Ghost's retrofitted hangar is a structure. Specifically, a hangar is a place where aircraft (or spacecraft as the case may be) are housed, repaired, refueled, etc. In most cases, that would be a building. However, on a ship, such as an aircraft carrier, it is an open area within the ship.  That is what the Ghost has. It has an opening within the back of the ship (not on top of) that the Phantom plugs into where it is housed, refueled, and repaired.  That is a hangar by definition. 

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I think you can make a decent argument either way, because the Phantom definitey doesn't sit in an interior space that allows technicians to service it from all angles without having to put on EVA suits, so it's not really a hangar. On the other hand, the landing arrangement for the Phantom is definitely a modification to the ship, and not a minor one. It completely removes one of the weapons, and carves a large cavity out of the hull for the ship to sit in.

No matter how you slice it, the rules for the game seem to indicate that a ship needs to be 2 silhouettes smaller than another ship to be reasonably contained within it's hull, which I think is a good rule of thumb. 

Edited by Aetrion

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Well, Wikipedia says " A hangar is a closed building structure to hold aircraft, spacecraft or tanks in protective storage."

And the Retrofitted Hangar Bay calls it a "compartment" which on a ship is always enclosed (exterior features are not compartments).

And really, "That is what the Ghost has. It has an opening within the back of the ship (not on top of) that the Phantom plugs into" you're agreeing with me here, but you're too obtuse to see it. It's very obvious that the Phantom sits on the top of the Ghost and plugs its rear into a docking clamp. It doesn't enter into a hangar structure. For all intents and purposes, it's basically the equivalent of a helicopter sitting on a helipad as opposed to one in a hangar.

Image result for helicopter frigate hangar

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4 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Well, Wikipedia says " A hangar is a closed building structure to hold aircraft, spacecraft or tanks in protective storage."

And the Retrofitted Hangar Bay calls it a "compartment" which on a ship is always enclosed (exterior features are not compartments).

And really, "That is what the Ghost has. It has an opening within the back of the ship (not on top of) that the Phantom plugs into" you're agreeing with me here, but you're too obtuse to see it. It's very obvious that the Phantom sits on the top of the Ghost and plugs its rear into a docking clamp. It doesn't enter into a hangar structure. For all intents and purposes, it's basically the equivalent of a helicopter sitting on a helipad as opposed to one in a hangar.

Image result for helicopter frigate hangar

Nope. It's almost fully enclosed  within, not on top of, the Ghost. The only exposed part of the Phantom is the very top. And, as Aetreon said, the Ghost does have extensive modifications to cut out that section of the ship to fit the Phantom within it. That is a retrofitted hangar, as described in the books. It is not like a helipad. The Phantom isn't landing on the Ghost's roof. It is docking inside the Ghost. That is a hangar. 

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It's neither really a hangar nor a docking clamp, it's a weird hybrid of the two that probably was devised so that the nose guns of the Phantom could replace the laser turret in the back of the VCX that was lost with that modification.

For the purpose of game mechanics I'd call it a retrofit hangar, because from a gameplay standpoint probably the most important feature of a hangar would be that any ships that are in the hangar no longer present a distinct target from the main vessel. The Phantom being half merged with the Ghost and becoming one of its turrets definitely qualifies in that regard. When they are docked they are effectively one ship.

 

I actually think the example of a modern day navy destroyer carrying helicopters is pretty interesting, because that's about what a Sil 5 vehicle with hangars for Sil 3 vehicles would be like, and it's pretty spot on for the retrofit hangar bay being able to fit a maximum of 3 Sil 3 vehicles. 

The ship that honestly baffles me the most in terms of hangar space is the Marauder class assault corvette, which according to FFGs rules has hangars for 12 fighters, yet in the picture of it it looks like it's only slightly bigger than the millennium  falcon. 

Edited by Aetrion

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I won't debate whether the Ghost is a Sil 4 or 5 ship.  I will say though, that there's no reason it can't be considered to have a special hangar even if it is Sil 4.  The Ghost is unique and modded beyond the standard norms, protagonists sometimes get special discrepancy on things.

On the off-hand though, has anyone seen images of the new shuttle the Ghost is using?  You can't say it's enclosed as 80% of it sticks out above the docking alcove!  I'd still call it a "special" hangar, but that just my way of dealing with it.

Edited by TalosX

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