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Warpman

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...abd even if you ARE playing competitively, the number of times you'll ever need to refer to the FAQ are likely to be minimal.

If you're taking an upgrade, then odds are you're going to have taken it before, read it's rules and any FAQ entries in advance, tested it and will know how it works. The same goes for your opponents. And even if you run into an unfamiliar situation, that's where the YO's will be able to assist, and you'll remember the interaction afterwards.

But hey, let's not let a reality check get in the way of this week's episode of Overreaction Theater, shall we?

Somebody is definitely overreacting, I agree. I mean, how dare I suggest the game is getting more complicated as new ships and mechanics are added to the point where I don't think it's a great gateway game any more. You're right, I'm waaaay out of line for even suggesting it.

.. um don't play with new players using complex interactions. Stick to the basics. I hate to tell you this but you can show a new player with just basic x-wings vs tie fighters.... if you need to break out the flow chart when introducing new players then that's on you for not building straight forward fleets.

1 x-wing vs 2 Ties if that's to complex don't do any actions only move and shoot.

Hey look! You and I agree!  You can't roll out the full game to a non-gaming newcomer!!!  Imagine that!!!!

You literally said were breaking out the flow chart showing new players... one way or the other man. The flow chart is not required when running simple ships for nebs. Your complainthas 0 grounds.

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...abd even if you ARE playing competitively, the number of times you'll ever need to refer to the FAQ are likely to be minimal.

If you're taking an upgrade, then odds are you're going to have taken it before, read it's rules and any FAQ entries in advance, tested it and will know how it works. The same goes for your opponents. And even if you run into an unfamiliar situation, that's where the YO's will be able to assist, and you'll remember the interaction afterwards.

But hey, let's not let a reality check get in the way of this week's episode of Overreaction Theater, shall we?

Somebody is definitely overreacting, I agree. I mean, how dare I suggest the game is getting more complicated as new ships and mechanics are added to the point where I don't think it's a great gateway game any more. You're right, I'm waaaay out of line for even suggesting it.

.. um don't play with new players using complex interactions. Stick to the basics. I hate to tell you this but you can show a new player with just basic x-wings vs tie fighters.... if you need to break out the flow chart when introducing new players then that's on you for not building straight forward fleets.

1 x-wing vs 2 Ties if that's to complex don't do any actions only move and shoot.

Hey look! You and I agree!  You can't roll out the full game to a non-gaming newcomer!!!  Imagine that!!!!

You literally said were breaking out the flow chart showing new players... one way or the other man. The flow chart is not required when running simple ships for nebs. Your complainthas 0 grounds.

Do you know what literal means? Because I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

This game has enough convoluted interactions and rules, which are easy enough for a seasoned gamer, but would in no way be friendly as a gateway game.  You would have to scale back significantly. We don't disagree on this.  I don't have to withhold rules from Ticket to Ride when I teach it.  I'm pretty sure you don't know what a gateway game is, or what a non-gamer is.

 

What exactly is so offensive about this position? 

 

What is so distressing about my position to you?

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First, to dispense with the topic post: Warpman is a troll, in effect if not in intention (and the latter is giving him the benefit of a very slim doubt). You can't get to his position without misunderstanding both the old rules and the new FAQ.

To the more interesting tangent posed by EastCoast, I think you're asking FFG for an impossible proposition. The basic rules of the game ARE relatively simple. In Wave 1, you could teach even a non-gamer how to play competently in an hour or so.

But crucially, even then there were thorny issues. If my X-wing has two damage cards and R2-D2, and reveals a green maneuver that overlaps an asteroid, am I dead? What happens if a ship attacks with Cluster Missiles while subject to a Blinded Pilot crit? If Vader equips Expert Handling, can he barrel roll twice? If Dark Curse starts his urn with a stress token and plans a green maneuver, does he get a free focus action that round?

So I think the problem is that the game has never actually been as simple as the demo game (and FFG's early marketing and, frankly, initial set of rules) suggest; just like in so many other areas, the main attraction of the good old days is that people tend not to remember them very accurately.

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You're comparing X-wing to Ticket to Ride? Seriously?

How is that even a valid comparison in your mind? The only overlap between the two is they happen to both inhabit the broad category that is "game". Checkers also fit, so do you want to complain that X-wing is more complicated then that?

Of course X-wing is substainlly more complicated then something like Ticket to Ride, that is a very low bar. Ticket to Ride is a fairly lite board game, no expandable or customizable miniatures game is going to be anywhere close to that style of game as far as simplicity is concerned. Not a one. They never are intended nor aspire to be that simple, because if they were they wouldn't be worth pouring 100s of dollars and 100s of hours into playing them.

No X-wing is not a game you can fully teach to your not interested in games cousin over the course of an hour or two. It never intends to be that type of game. What it does intend to be is a less complicated miniatures game, which even with this updated it suceededs at.

No miniatures games is an entry level game, but X-wing certainly is a entry level miniatures game.

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You're comparing X-wing to Ticket to Ride? Seriously?

No, that was just emphasizing a gateway game. Do you consider Ticket to Ride a gateway game? My guess is yes. I'm stating that at one point in time, X-Wing was a really good gateway game as well. It was never as simplistic. It still is a GREAT entry level miniatures, but it really can't fill that same role any more, at least not without dialing back significantly on what's available. I appreciate that you've taken umbrage to the comparison, but it's sort of out of context with the larger conversation.

How is that even a valid comparison in your mind?

It isn't see above.

The only overlap between the two is they happen to both inhabit the broad category that is "game". Checkers also fit, so do you want to complain that X-wing is more complicated then that?

Simmer down, see above.

Of course X-wing is substainlly more complicated then something like Ticket to Ride, that is a very low bar.

It sure is!

Ticket to Ride is a fairly lite board game, no expandable or customizable miniatures game is going to be anywhere close to that style of game as far as simplicity is concerned. Not a one.

I totally agree.

They never are intended nor aspire to be that simple,

Here I disagree. I think X-Wing hooked in a lot of casual gamers because it was so simple. If you think it's just the theme, take a look at Armada and Imperial Assault. Neither are as close to as popular and I think a great deal of that is down to the simplicity of the early game. To Vorpal's excellent point, it wasn't fair or realistic to expect the game to stay so simple. I of course have made no declarations of what is fair or unfair. I just happened to read through the FAQ, and it drove home the point that we weren't in Kansas any more.

No X-wing is not a game you can fully teach to your not interested in games cousin over the course of an hour or two.

I contend that you certainly could at one point. I was lamenting that this was no longer the case.

What it does intend to be is a less complicated miniatures game, which even with this updated it suceededs at.

No miniatures games is an entry level game, but X-wing certainly is a entry level miniatures game.

No disagreement here.

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As Vorpal pointed out, you never could teach your non-gaming cousin it without pairing down the rules. Even within the Core Set.

Moreover, you seem to be expressing that you expected X-wing to not grow more complicated as it is expanded upon. That is an impossible standard. As you add content to any game it becomes more complicated just by virtue of the fact that you now have more rules.

Take Settlers of Cataan. If you add on all of the expansions it is a much more complicated game then just the base game. You wouldn't try and teach a non-gamer Cataan with all the expansions, why would you do so with X-wing which is inherently of a more complicated genre of games?

We aren't in Kansas anymore, but we probably never were, and at the very least never expected to stay there anyway. So why is that an issue?

Edited by ScottieATF

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As Vorpal pointed out, you never could teach your non-gaming cousin it without pairing down the rules. Even within the Core Set.

They played it on Tabletop. I taught my 8 year old to play it. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

 

Moreover, you seem to be expressing that you expected X-wing to not grow more complicated as it is expanded upon. That is an impossible standard. As you add content to any game it becomes more complicated just by virtue of the fact that you now have more rules.

You seem to be confusing my expectations with what I'm stating. I lament the complexity, I don't think I ever believed it would last forever.

 

  

Take Settlers of Cataan. If you add on all of the expansions it is a much more complicated game then just the base game. You wouldn't try and teach a non-gamer Cataan with all the expansions, why would you do so with X-wing which is inherently of a more complicated genre of games?

I would. I don't think Catan is complicated at all, even with the expansions. They are though as you say, very different animals.

Edited by EastCoast

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As Vorpal pointed out, you never could teach your non-gaming cousin it without pairing down the rules. Even within the Core Set.

They played it on Tabletop. I taught my 8 year old to play it. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

 

And screwed up a bunch of rules on tabletop.   Did you teach your 8 year old to play it by throwing him straight in with fully upgraded competitive 100 point lists?

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And screwed up a bunch of rules on tabletop.   Did you teach your 8 year old to play it by throwing him straight in with fully upgraded competitive 100 point lists?

Why exactly does that matter. See at this point it doesn't matter, I've rocked the boat in the echo chamber. I've got posters kvetching because I had the audacity to say it wasn't a gateway game. I've got others steamed because I compared it to a gateway game. Poor Scottie just lambasted me for mentioning ticket to ride and then in his next post compares X-Wing to Catan with expansions. All you really know is "EastCoast not bowing at altar of FFG design team. Me not know why, but me angry! Mistakes on Tabletop! Me smash!"

By the way, the rules don't change whether you play at 60 or 6,000 points. 100 points is just a threshhold for tournaments. But no, when I taught him I didn't have to hide any cards. This was around wave IVish, in case you want to search for a reason to get angry at me. PS. I probably have gotten at least 1 rule wrong in my lifetime. I'm so ashamed.

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And screwed up a bunch of rules on tabletop.   Did you teach your 8 year old to play it by throwing him straight in with fully upgraded competitive 100 point lists?

Why exactly does that matter. 

 

Because you can't use it as an example of how easy it used to be to teach the game if one of your examples couldn't even do it right.  If it was so easy, they wouldn't have done it so wrong.  They also used hardly any upgrades.

Edited by VanderLegion

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Because you can't use it as an example of how easy it used to be to teach the game if one of your examples couldn't even do it right.  If it was so easy, they wouldn't have done it so wrong.

Good lord Vander, if not making mistakes on Tabletop is the barometer of how easy a game is, then no game on Tabletop has ever been easy. Those guys could screw up knifey spooney.

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And screwed up a bunch of rules on tabletop.   Did you teach your 8 year old to play it by throwing him straight in with fully upgraded competitive 100 point lists?

Why exactly does that matter. See at this point it doesn't matter, I've rocked the boat in the echo chamber. I've got posters kvetching because I had the audacity to say it wasn't a gateway game. I've got others steamed because I compared it to a gateway game. Poor Scottie just lambasted me for mentioning ticket to ride and then in his next post compares X-Wing to Catan with expansions. All you really know is "EastCoast not bowing at altar of FFG design team. Me not know why, but me angry! Mistakes on Tabletop! Me smash!"By the way, the rules don't change whether you play at 60 or 6,000 points. 100 points is just a threshhold for tournaments. But no, when I taught him I didn't have to hide any cards. This was around wave IVish, in case you want to search for a reason to get angry at me. PS. I probably have gotten at least 1 rule wrong in my lifetime. I'm so ashamed.

Because you can use the exact same setup to teach anyone that you used to reach your 8 year old. Nothing has changed there.

If anything it's more gateway, you can start out fairly simple and slowly add on complexity.

How exactly does the endurance of vetrans packs effect introducing people with the core set?

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So VanderLegion thinks it wasn't ever gateway and I'm an idiot for thinking so. It's sooo difficult that they messed up the rules on Tabletop for cripes sake!!! It has always been mentally taxing! Or else they wouldn't have screwed up the rules.

Icelom now says, it is absolutely more gateway now than ever, and I'm an idiot. VanderLegion likes this post. Yep, time to move on from this thread.

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So VanderLegion thinks it wasn't ever gateway and I'm an idiot for thinking so. It's sooo difficult that they messed up the rules on Tabletop for cripes sake!!! It has always been mentally taxing! Or else they wouldn't have screwed up the rules.

Icelom now says, it is absolutely more gateway now than ever, and I'm an idiot. VanderLegion likes this post. Yep, time to move on from this thread.

 

I must have missed all the times we called you an idiot...

 

And I never said anything either way about whether it's a gateway game.  Using full competitive squads with upgrades and everytihng, no I don't think it's a gateway game, or ever really has been.  If you introduce people with the core set and learn to play rules, then add in the rest, I think it absolutely could be.

Edited by VanderLegion

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The idiot was implied. Good day, sir.

 

Contrary to popular internet belief, it IS possible to disagree with someone without thinking or implying they're an idiot.  Or any name calling at all.

 

I DISAGREE WITH YOU HEARTILY, YOU SWIFF-BIFFLING SNORFBLAT! HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST OTHERWISE!?

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The idiot was implied. Good day, sir.

 

Contrary to popular internet belief, it IS possible to disagree with someone without thinking or implying they're an idiot.  Or any name calling at all.

I DISAGREE WITH YOU HEARTILY, YOU SWIFF-BIFFLING SNORFBLAT! HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST OTHERWISE!?

GONK YOU YOU GONKING GONK!

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The idiot was implied. Good day, sir.

 

Contrary to popular internet belief, it IS possible to disagree with someone without thinking or implying they're an idiot.  Or any name calling at all.

I DISAGREE WITH YOU HEARTILY, YOU SWIFF-BIFFLING SNORFBLAT! HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST OTHERWISE!?

GONK YOU YOU GONKING GONK!

 

*sob*... why would you say that? Words can hurt like a fist you know.

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And screwed up a bunch of rules on tabletop.   Did you teach your 8 year old to play it by throwing him straight in with fully upgraded competitive 100 point lists?

Why exactly does that matter. See at this point it doesn't matter, I've rocked the boat in the echo chamber. I've got posters kvetching because I had the audacity to say it wasn't a gateway game. I've got others steamed because I compared it to a gateway game. Poor Scottie just lambasted me for mentioning ticket to ride and then in his next post compares X-Wing to Catan with expansions. All you really know is "EastCoast not bowing at altar of FFG design team. Me not know why, but me angry! Mistakes on Tabletop! Me smash!"

By the way, the rules don't change whether you play at 60 or 6,000 points. 100 points is just a threshhold for tournaments. But no, when I taught him I didn't have to hide any cards. This was around wave IVish, in case you want to search for a reason to get angry at me. PS. I probably have gotten at least 1 rule wrong in my lifetime. I'm so ashamed.

 

 

Technically, the rules do change if you play Epic...

 

But I don't think that is what the issue. You don't need to bash all the rule complexities this game has to a new player, especially someone new to these types of games. The games has gotten more complex, as more stuff has been released. And the FAQ has to reflect that, as that is it's purpose, to answer questions that the rulebook doesn't cover. And really, restricting the designers to Wave 1-3 design philosophies isn't the best for the game. 

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FAQs are a necessity in the game.

 

FAQs are also VERY unfriendly to new players AND to most casual players who are simply trying to keep up with changes.

 

I would like to see a user app, android version that FFG could create that is a rules app.  This app would auto update and could EASILY be used in game to clarify issues for new and casual players.

 

I print the FAQS but carrying around a big notebook with faq then flipping through it mid game in frustrating looking for clarification is NOT FUN and happens very often.

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