Death of the Deadeye / R4 Aggromech Combo

[Valca 397]

 

Per the new FAQ:

 

Target locks acquired using R4 Agromech’s ability may be used during that attack.

 

If a ship equipped with R4 Agromech is attacking with a secondary weapon that requires the ship to spend a focus token (such as a Blaster Turret or any weapon used with Deadeye), that ship cannot acquire a target lock on the defender because the enemy ship becomes the defender after the cost for the attack is paid. See "Timing Chart for Performing an Attack" on page 6.

 

You may spend 1 focus token to change all focus results to hit results only once during the "Modify Attack" dice step. See "Spending Tokens" on page 5

 

 

 

 

This seems to kill the uniqueness of Contracted Scouts as alpha strike platforms.  They're still good, but now they're a lot closer to TIE Bombers, Y-Wings, etc...

In other words: bantacrap

 

Without R4 aggromech pulling out 4\4 attacks is not probable.

and as such, filthy PTL ace meta returns.

BOO, FFG!

BOO!

 

 

 

Proton Torpedoes w/ Guidance Chips results in 4 hits ~59-60% of the time. 

Proton Torpedoes w/ Guidance Chips and a focus token results in 4 hits ~74% of the time.

Proton Torpedoes w/ Guidance Chips and a target lock (rerolling all but 1 focus result) results in 4 hits ~90% of the time.

[FluxCapcitr 240]

In other words: bantacrap

 

Without R4 aggromech pulling out 4\4 attacks is not probable.

and as such, filthy PTL ace meta returns.

BOO, FFG!

BOO!

 

 

Not really.  The Ace meta was because it was one of the few builds that did well against U-boats.  There are plenty of builds which can wreck aces, but those builds couldn't survive vs U-boats, with the U-boat threat lessened, we will see more anti-ace builds which in turn will reduce the Ace builds we see.

 

Think of it like Rock, Paper, Scissors.  Aces beat U-boats, U-boats beat Anti-Ace, Anti-Ace beats Aces.  Fewer U-boats means more Anti-Ace, which in turn leads to less Ace builds.

Edited July 1, 2016 by FluxCapcitr

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

Use them. With Sabine you can kill points with just the nets

Pays for itself at that point (Ie just wins the **** game for ya)

Not to mention we got a very fairly priced platform via death fire

[Admiral Deathrain 5,231]

Absolutely love how this means Homing Missile TIE Bombers with Deadeye have the same damage as new age U-Boats, only at higher PS and without stress. Makes the loss of durability even more bearable!

[Squark 2,539]

So, the meta breakdown:

-Dengaroo is untouched

-Crack swarms, both Rebel and Imperial, care not

Overclocked R4 replaces Agromech, which doesn't hurt the U-boat alpha strikes, but does significantly weaken their endgame- 2 dice turret+focus is hilariously bad vs. Aces, and without target lock+focus, it will be harder for Palpatine Aces to defeat Jousters after they spend their munitions

-IF U-boats become less prevalent, they will allow conner net Bombers to make their way back onto the field, hurting Palpatine Aces. However, such lists still have to deal with Dengaroo which is still very painful for them. Furthermore, Vessery can virtually ignore stress, which will hurt tactician and stress both builds if he becomes one of the premier aces as some have predicted.

So, wait and see, honestly.

[Valca 397]

So, the meta breakdown:

-Dengaroo is untouched

-Crack swarms, both Rebel and Imperial, care not

Overclocked R4 replaces Agromech, which doesn't hurt the U-boat alpha strikes, but does significantly weaken their endgame- 2 dice turret+focus is hilariously bad vs. Aces, and without target lock+focus, it will be harder for Palpatine Aces to defeat Jousters after they spend their munitions

-IF U-boats become less prevalent, they will allow conner net Bombers to make their way back onto the field, hurting Palpatine Aces. However, such lists still have to deal with Dengaroo which is still very painful for them. Furthermore, Vessery can virtually ignore stress, which will hurt tactician and stress both builds if he becomes one of the premier aces as some have predicted.

So, wait and see, honestly.

 

Hasn't Vessery always worked like this?  Not seeing what changed for him.

[Koing907 1,227]

I will say, though, that as sad as I am about Blaster Turret, I don't feel like this was an intentional nerf. They assessed the rules, figured out the best timing, then looked at the cards and realized that some combos now didn't work.

Yeah. This is a ruling that will reduce U-Boats somewhat, not a counter like Autothrusters was for PWTs. And the problem with doing it through a ruling, is that rules interactions are what create these combos in the first place. If the rules are shifted around like this as a response to a powerful combo, then the rules are in danger of becoming shifty and fluid.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Koing907

[nigeltastic 3,808]

I'm still failing to see how clarifying the strange timing r4 aggromech used to have is bad design. Sure it hurts bad turrets and hurts uboats but honestly they could have made this clarification at any time and it made sense. Choosing weapon then choosing defender has been the case for a while (see dark curse) and r4 broke that pattern in ac weird way.

[Squark 2,539]

So, the meta breakdown:

-Dengaroo is untouched

-Crack swarms, both Rebel and Imperial, care not

Overclocked R4 replaces Agromech, which doesn't hurt the U-boat alpha strikes, but does significantly weaken their endgame- 2 dice turret+focus is hilariously bad vs. Aces, and without target lock+focus, it will be harder for Palpatine Aces to defeat Jousters after they spend their munitions

-IF U-boats become less prevalent, they will allow conner net Bombers to make their way back onto the field, hurting Palpatine Aces. However, such lists still have to deal with Dengaroo which is still very painful for them. Furthermore, Vessery can virtually ignore stress, which will hurt tactician and stress both builds if he becomes one of the premier aces as some have predicted.

So, wait and see, honestly.

 

Hasn't Vessery always worked like this?  Not seeing what changed for him.

The FAQ doesn't affect him directly, but it was released the day after Imperial Veterans hit, so the meta will be adjusting to him while it adjusts to the FAQ.

[ScottieATF 2,864]

Per the new FAQ:

Target locks acquired using R4 Agromech’s ability may be used during that attack.

If a ship equipped with R4 Agromech is attacking with a secondary weapon that requires the ship to spend a focus token (such as a Blaster Turret or any weapon used with Deadeye), that ship cannot acquire a target lock on the defender because the enemy ship becomes the defender after the cost for the attack is paid. See "Timing Chart for Performing an Attack" on page 6.

You may spend 1 focus token to change all focus results to hit results only once during the "Modify Attack" dice step. See "Spending Tokens" on page 5

This seems to kill the uniqueness of Contracted Scouts as alpha strike platforms. They're still good, but now they're a lot closer to TIE Bombers, Y-Wings, etc...

In other words: bantacrap

Without R4 aggromech pulling out 4\4 attacks is not probable.

and as such, filthy PTL ace meta returns.

BOO, FFG!

BOO!

Or you just run Overclocked R4, as many people were already doing in their builds making cuts in System Opens and Regionals.

People that think Agromech taking a hit kills U-Boat builds haven't been paying attention to what actually is in U-Boat lists.

Edited July 1, 2016 by ScottieATF

[Vineheart01 6,403]

 

Sad to see them sacrificing Blaster Turret for a debatable nerf. Oh, well...

Meh, blaster turret basically wasnt used anyway since wave 6. The focus to fire is too harsh

 

still surprised they didnt just faq that to say you need the focus to fire but not spend it to fire.

Then again, Dorsal Turret basically flatout replaced it lol.

[FluxCapcitr 240]

 

 

So, the meta breakdown:

-Dengaroo is untouched

-Crack swarms, both Rebel and Imperial, care not

Overclocked R4 replaces Agromech, which doesn't hurt the U-boat alpha strikes, but does significantly weaken their endgame- 2 dice turret+focus is hilariously bad vs. Aces, and without target lock+focus, it will be harder for Palpatine Aces to defeat Jousters after they spend their munitions

-IF U-boats become less prevalent, they will allow conner net Bombers to make their way back onto the field, hurting Palpatine Aces. However, such lists still have to deal with Dengaroo which is still very painful for them. Furthermore, Vessery can virtually ignore stress, which will hurt tactician and stress both builds if he becomes one of the premier aces as some have predicted.

So, wait and see, honestly.

 

Hasn't Vessery always worked like this?  Not seeing what changed for him.

The FAQ doesn't affect him directly, but it was released the day after Imperial Veterans hit, so the meta will be adjusting to him while it adjusts to the FAQ.

 

 

But wait, Vessery is an expensive ship without autothrusters or tip-top PS.  

 

If only there was a high PS ship that could consistently fire at Vessery while exploiting a large base boost to stay out of arc...

 

Will Fat Han rise again?

 

Please excuse me while I go laugh maniacally.

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

Per the new FAQ:

Target locks acquired using R4 Agromech’s ability may be used during that attack.

If a ship equipped with R4 Agromech is attacking with a secondary weapon that requires the ship to spend a focus token (such as a Blaster Turret or any weapon used with Deadeye), that ship cannot acquire a target lock on the defender because the enemy ship becomes the defender after the cost for the attack is paid. See "Timing Chart for Performing an Attack" on page 6.

You may spend 1 focus token to change all focus results to hit results only once during the "Modify Attack" dice step. See "Spending Tokens" on page 5

This seems to kill the uniqueness of Contracted Scouts as alpha strike platforms. They're still good, but now they're a lot closer to TIE Bombers, Y-Wings, etc...

In other words: bantacrap

Without R4 aggromech pulling out 4\4 attacks is not probable.

and as such, filthy PTL ace meta returns.

BOO, FFG!

BOO!

Or you just run Overclocked R4, as many people were already doing in their builds making cuts in System Opens and Regionals.

People that think Agromech taking a hit kills U-Boat builds haven't been paying attention to what actually is in U-Boat lists.

It's a pretty huge blow, though. You mainly ran over clocked to bid down for mirrors

Not only do you drop down from rerollable to focus plasmas, but the pwt damage output becomes ass

Had more than my far share of games even against aces decided by fully modified range 1 pwts (+misthunter crew, though)

On the flip side, plasma over clocked extras is a 32 point jm5k, 30 without extra

Which means feedbacks for everyone!!! (32 j34 + 34)

[ianmiddy 904]

Oh NO!! ...I just took delivery of my 3rd Jumpmaster the other day 

 

...to convert to a freighter 

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

Oh NO!! ...I just took delivery of my 3rd Jumpmaster the other day

...to convert to a freighter

Honestly, you can probably still make effective triple jumps

They just won't be as easy to wield as before

As someone who owns 3 jumps, I just see this as an excuse to run manaroo with two Torp scouts again

Edited July 1, 2016 by ficklegreendice

[eagletsi111 1,113]

Lets see if I understand the change to Over Clocked R4 (OCR4) and rec spec. with the timing.

 

Previously, you spend 1 focus for deadeye and because it's a focus and in combat you get to fire a torp and get a free focus while taking stress, then use your other focus to modify the attack.

 

Now you spend 1 focus for deadeye which still lets you fire a torp and gain a focus while taking stress, but since you cannot use 2 focus tokens on the same modification.   You cannot use your remaining focus token to modify the attack, because you have already spent one when you gained the free focus.   Is that correct?

 

Just trying to make sense of the timing change.

 

Thanks,

Edited July 1, 2016 by eagletsi111

[Vineheart01 6,403]

No thats not how its working.

 

R4 Aggromech does not give you a TL if you spend a focus via Deadeye because per the timing chart, you have no target yet to TL against.

If you get another focus, you can still spend it on that attack. You cant spend tokens for the same effect - deadeye and normal focus are not the same effect.

[eagletsi111 1,113]

No thats not how its working.

 

R4 Aggromech does not give you a TL if you spend a focus via Deadeye because per the timing chart, you have no target yet to TL against.

If you get another focus, you can still spend it on that attack. You cant spend tokens for the same effect - deadeye and normal focus are not the same effect.

 

I understand how R4 Aggromech works, I'm talking about Over Clocked R4, that's what I face all the time.

 

Thanks,

[Squark 2,539]

Nothing changed with Overclocked R4, so I imagine that's why he was confused. Also, where on earth is this target lock coming from if your opponent does not have the Agromech?

Edited July 1, 2016 by Squark

[nigeltastic 3,808]

No thats not how its working.

 

R4 Aggromech does not give you a TL if you spend a focus via Deadeye because per the timing chart, you have no target yet to TL against.

If you get another focus, you can still spend it on that attack. You cant spend tokens for the same effect - deadeye and normal focus are not the same effect.

 

I understand how R4 Aggromech works, I'm talking about Over Clocked R4, that's what I face all the time.

 

Thanks,

Overclocked r4 doesn't give up a target lock. With deadeye and Overclocked r4 there's nothing that will give you a target lock after spending anything.

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

Nothing changed with Overclocked R4, so I imagine that's why he was confused. Also, where on earth is this target lock coming from if your opponent does not have the Agromech?

 

k4?

 

manaroo ?

 

gotta jump through some hoops now

[eagletsi111 1,113]

Yes!   I misspoke, sometimes he takes the K4 which gives a target lock when he greens   I changed it now.

 

Basically was wondering if Overclocked R4 was impacted by this change in timing, but it doesn't appear so.   Just the r4 Aggro

 

Honestly, I have played against many jump lists and most use the Overclocked r4, so I was hoping for some change to that

Edited July 1, 2016 by eagletsi111

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

Yes!   I misspoke, sometimes he takes the K4 which gives a target lock.   I changed it now.

 

Basically was wondering if Overclocked R4 was impacted by this change in timing, but it doesn't appear so.   Just the r4 Aggro

 

Honestly, I have played against many jump lists and most use the Overclocked r4, so I was hoping for some change to that

 

we really need to address this "most use the overclocked" nonsense

 

first of all, you ran overclocked specifically for the initiative bid v other jumpmasters. neither overclocked nor r4 aggro do much when you get blocked by an opponent with the intiative

 

secondly, unless regionals were being dominated strictly by JM5ks running NOTHING BUT OVERCLOCKED, those lists are going to be losing a lot

 

 

the Hoth Open winner, for example, ran two overclocked and one Boba on an r4 aggro proton torp

 

he will no longer be able to use that exact list, as he lost his ideal Boba platform (re-rollable proton torps; proton torps are hideously redundant with overclocked r4)

 

 

there's also the Torpscout with 4-lom and r4 aggro, which is not only a scary torpedo boat but a pretty scary PWT as well

 

well, it's gone now. Sure, you can still run overclocked with 4-lom but now you're looking at a many times less flexible ship working with ion tokens and without red dice rolls

 

as a scout player, the r4 aggro jm5k is your late game; your only real fallback if the alpha gets denied (or whiffs) at all. It's not there anymore

 

I guess you could replace it with VI dengar title Zuckuss?

Edited July 1, 2016 by ficklegreendice

[ScottieATF 2,864]

Yes!   I misspoke, sometimes he takes the K4 which gives a target lock.   I changed it now.

 

Basically was wondering if Overclocked R4 was impacted by this change in timing, but it doesn't appear so.   Just the r4 Aggro

 

Honestly, I have played against many jump lists and most use the Overclocked r4, so I was hoping for some change to that

 

we really need to address this "most use the overclocked" nonsense

 

first of all, you ran overclocked specifically for the initiative bid v other jumpmasters. neither overclocked nor r4 aggro do much when you get blocked by an opponent with the intiative

 

secondly, unless regionals were being dominated strictly by JM5ks running NOTHING BUT OVERCLOCKED, those lists are going to be losing a lot

 

 

the Hoth Open winner, for example, ran two overclocked and one Boba on an r4 aggro proton torp

 

he will no longer be able to use that exact list, as he lost his ideal Boba platform (re-rollable proton torps; proton torps are hideously redundant with overclocked r4)

 

 

there's also the Torpscout with 4-lom and r4 aggro, which is not only a scary torpedo boat but a pretty scary PWT as well

 

well, it's gone now. Sure, you can still run overclocked with 4-lom but now you're looking at a many times less flexible ship working with ion tokens and without red dice rolls

And even accounting for all that we a still back to the core of the comments being made.

People are acting as if this FAQ kills the Contracted Scout. As if without the Agromech that the build falls apart. But we know that makes no sense, because people have been playing without the Agromech and still winning.

So even if you accept that the Agromech was the better option, you still are left with the fact that the non-Agromech options are still good enough to be regularly placing and winning events.

Yes, absolutely Overclocked is used to gain an initiative bid overy Agromech versions. But it isn't as if Overclocked versions are only playing other Contracted Scout builds, they still have to be able to beat those other lists as well to do well.

So at the core of it the idea that the U-Boat is dead without the Agromech is farcical as they've already proven still capable without the Agromech. Whether the Agromech is strictly better or not doesn't bear of that.

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

 

 

Yes!   I misspoke, sometimes he takes the K4 which gives a target lock.   I changed it now.

 

Basically was wondering if Overclocked R4 was impacted by this change in timing, but it doesn't appear so.   Just the r4 Aggro

 

Honestly, I have played against many jump lists and most use the Overclocked r4, so I was hoping for some change to that

 

we really need to address this "most use the overclocked" nonsense

 

first of all, you ran overclocked specifically for the initiative bid v other jumpmasters. neither overclocked nor r4 aggro do much when you get blocked by an opponent with the intiative

 

secondly, unless regionals were being dominated strictly by JM5ks running NOTHING BUT OVERCLOCKED, those lists are going to be losing a lot

 

 

the Hoth Open winner, for example, ran two overclocked and one Boba on an r4 aggro proton torp

 

he will no longer be able to use that exact list, as he lost his ideal Boba platform (re-rollable proton torps; proton torps are hideously redundant with overclocked r4)

 

 

there's also the Torpscout with 4-lom and r4 aggro, which is not only a scary torpedo boat but a pretty scary PWT as well

 

well, it's gone now. Sure, you can still run overclocked with 4-lom but now you're looking at a many times less flexible ship working with ion tokens and without red dice rolls

And even accounting for all that we a still back to the core of the comments being made.

People are acting as if this FAQ kills the Contracted Scout. As if without the Agromech that the build falls apart. But we know that makes no sense, because people have been playing without the Agromech and still winning.

So even if you accept that the Agromech was the better option, you still are left with the fact that the non-Agromech options are still good enough to be regularly placing and winning events.

Yes, absolutely Overclocked is used to gain an initiative bid overy Agromech versions. But it isn't as if Overclocked versions are only playing other Contracted Scout builds, they still have to be able to beat those other lists as well to do well.

So at the core of it the idea that the U-Boat is dead without the Agromech is farcical as they've already proven still capable without the Agromech. Whether the Agromech is strictly better or not doesn't bear of that.

 

 

hey, I'm not perptuating the death of the torpscout

 

just remember that this is the internet. a light cough from even the most robust ship can provoke cries DOOM and THE SKY IS FALLING

 

but to think that this isn't a nerf is just silly

 

and again, sure overclocked existed and was used before, but I don't believe I've ever seen a list that runs them exclusively. This is for a **** good reason: there are simply a lot of undeniable, objective drawbacks when it comes to using overclocked v r4 aggro

 

this errata is going to incite change. It may be something as simple as replacing the r4 aggro scout with VI Dengar Title Zuckuss, but it'll be there