Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Alank2

Renown rewards - too big per Core?

Recommended Posts

 So, I encountered an... interesting problem. It seems that players can get to high Renown extremely fast, while Ranks are earned much slower, which leads to lac of balance in terms of abilities and equipment available.

 Players start game at 13,000 xp and 0 Renown. Theoretical max is 50,000 xp an 100 Renown (and in fact, even 80 already gives you access to Hero items).

 This means that players need 37,000 xp and 100 (or 80) Renown to do so. Simple calculations show that for each point of Renown, players should get:

  - Either (37,000/100) = 370 Experience per point of Renown

 Or

 - (37,000/80) = ~460 Experience per point of Renown.


 Now, let's Analyze some DW missions in rulebooks (without spoilers!):

 - Core Rulebook mission. It doesn't show which Objectives are Veteran/Skilled/Novie, instead it gives a fixed Experience value - note, this value is higher than the value of Rewards in rulebook in case of Primary and Secondary and lower in case of Tertiary, so in the end we end up with a little bit less exp than per Rulebook, maybe 50 or so.
 Going by this value, we get:

 - One Pirmary Objective worth 500 xp and 1 Renown total.
 - One Secondary Objective worth 200 xp and 1 Renown total.
 -  6 Tertiary Objectives worth 300 xp and 1 Renown total, if they are all fulfilled (and they are easy).
 - 1 additional Renown for filling 5 or more Objectives.
 - Possibly 1 Renown if at least 3 Objectives were Veteran (not likely, since Tertiary Objectives are so easy it hurts and some of them are fulfilled automatically by fulfilling the Mission).
 - Possible 1 from the of Glory of Black Templars Oath, if chosen.

 So, Renown for first Mission ranges from 4 to 6. Experience rewarded ~100 xp.

 So, we get 250xp for 1 Renown in the best case. In case of players failing some Objectives, we may reach ~300 xp per 1 Renown.
 In other words, with this amount of Renown, players will reach high Renown extremely fast and it's possible for them to reach Respected before Rank 2(!) and Distinguished on Rank 3(!).


 Maybe ti's just first mission? OK, let's check the other ones (I'm not  counting Oath of Glory and Black Templars Oath, only base Experience):

RisingTempest:

 First Mission: Around 1400-1600 experience and 3 to 4 Renown, so ~400 xp per Renown. OK, good value. However the Rewards bit at the end can (depending on your playtime of this mission) be much worse, since for 8 hours it gives 4+ Renown and 1000xp, and this mission is doable in 8-12 hours with no problem.

 Second Mission: Similar, 1400-1600 experience and 3-4 Renown. Again, Rewards bit changes it to around 1000xp for 4+ Renown, and this time... I'll avoid spoilers, but there are serious possibilities of additional Renown, but let's leave the base value here.

 Third mission: To avoid spoilers, let's just say that it gives either 6 Renown and 1000xp by the Core rules, or, if we go by the Rewards at the end, you can earn around 10(!) Renown for around 3000xp.


 I can analyze other missions, there are some free missions available, Ark of Lost Souls and The Emperor Protects, but I think  it's not necessary - we can see the problem here.

 If we go by typical mission involving 1 Primary, 2 Secondary and around 3-4 Tertiary Objectives, than even if we will never make the Veteran (and thus worth more Renown) and players will never go without helmet, take Oath of Glory or other means of gaining more Renown, and you will not award them additional Reward, they will gain around 1000xp and 3-4 Renown.
 With more Objectives, let's say 1 Primary, 3 Secondary and 6 Tertiary, they will gain by average 4-5 Renown and 1500 xp, even if you avoid making 3 Veteran Objectives so that they never hit more Renown.

 With this speed it's average 312 experience, meaning that players will reach Respected with Rank 2, Distinguished the moment they hit Rank 4 (they can actually reach Distinguished on Rank 3 with one mission granting more Renown!), Famed on Rank 5 (again, with slightly more Renown on Rank 4!) and Hero on Rank 6 and with some work, they can get it on Rank 5(!).

 That's assuming no Oath of Glory, Oath of Black Templars, going without helmets or some epic achievements  for more Renown. Tyrannic War Veteran or Wolf Scout (usually on SIlent Move with high bonuses, so with no helmet) can get it even higher. You can balance it with Renown penalties from Rites of Battle, but there are additional Rewards there, as well.


 So, should I increase the exp value of Objectives? Or maybe there's something I'm missing here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see view this as a problem.  When I ran, the players were chomping at the bit to get to the higher levels of renown so they could get the cool toys.  And if they have cool gear that means more dangerous missions.  Instead of "kill the Hive Tyrant", it becomes "Kill the Hive Tyrant, guarded by Hive Guard, and there are a few Zoenthropes hanging around as well..."

 

Also, there are ways of losing renown.  This is a good way to inflict consequences for poor behavior.  Mock an inquisitor?  Lose renown.  Execute a noble of the Imperium for "being lippy"?  There's some more renown gone.  Some missions may require the kill team to work with xenos to achieve a greater goal, and that's a -5 to renown no matter what the circumstances.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the opposite issue, with PCs gaining xp ranks faster than renown ranks. I think that's been down to a combination of shorter sessions and long missions. So I've cut back on xp gains per session while bumping renown gain when appropriate (e.g. one mission that could have easily been split into several smaller missions in retrospect).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 Or maybe there's something I'm missing here?

 

Uh, XP and Renown are two different things that may or may not correspond to each other in any way?

 

 Actually, I'd say they actually do correspond with each other in one way - they both serve as a measurement of how experienced and/or known is your Marine and Kill-Team.

 If players manage to hit Hero by Rank 5, there is nothing else they can take in regard to gear - therefore, the only progress is more Skills and Talents, and than you can buy Emperor's Chosen and move forward with new things - but still, your players do not get to requisition completely new gear. Of course, gear is not the most important part of the game, but still, being in 2/3 of the Experience tree and already having everything makes gaining more Renown kind of pointless.

 And, if we follow it to Rank 7, it's absolutely possible for players to reach 100 Renown - and then what? "Congratulations, you finished your mission, here's your Renown. It's mostly useless now, unless you like working with Xenos and want to lose some, but still, Renown! Hurray! Also, Oath of Glory is now useless, like playing without helmet."

 

 

I don't see view this as a problem.  When I ran, the players were chomping at the bit to get to the higher levels of renown so they could get the cool toys.  And if they have cool gear that means more dangerous missions.  Instead of "kill the Hive Tyrant", it becomes "Kill the Hive Tyrant, guarded by Hive Guard, and there are a few Zoenthropes hanging around as well..."

 

Also, there are ways of losing renown.  This is a good way to inflict consequences for poor behavior.  Mock an inquisitor?  Lose renown.  Execute a noble of the Imperium for "being lippy"?  There's some more renown gone.  Some missions may require the kill team to work with xenos to achieve a greater goal, and that's a -5 to renown no matter what the circumstances.  

 Increasing numbers and strength enemies is fine, but it's more a difficulty level thing - it's not a problem here. Problem lies in the fact that after Rank 6 it's pointless to gain more Renown. 

I can find a workaround (decrease Renown, increase exp, give players some new toys from other Rulebooks on higher Renown, increase Renown treshold etc.), but it's more of a question "am I doing something wrong / Is there something in the rules that I'm omitting?"

 But it's really interesting that no one else seems to have this problem - we are still on Respected level (after few missions), do you have any experience with higher Renown games? Do players actually lose Renown, or perhaps lack of new gears isn't a problem for them? I'm really curious.

 And the "working with Xenos" thing... it always strikes me as odd sometimes when your are ORDERED to do so, you STILL lose Renown...

 "Battle-Brothers! Today you are ordered to work with Tau! Since you are allying yourself with vile Xeno, you will lose some respect from your fellow Deathwatch Battle-Brothers and me! Prepare yourself for the mission!"

 Of course, if players will make such decision, then they will lose Renown, but this will happen at most few times during the campaign (unless you will force their hand a little bit too much), and they can gain additional Renown for some epic achievements or Oath of Glory/Playing without helmet/using any other Rites of Battle Renown-boosting option. At last fro my experience, players cherish their Renown too much to ally with Xenos unless left with absolutely no choice, which shouldn't happen too often.

 

 

 

I have the opposite issue, with PCs gaining xp ranks faster than renown ranks. I think that's been down to a combination of shorter sessions and long missions. So I've cut back on xp gains per session while bumping renown gain when appropriate (e.g. one mission that could have easily been split into several smaller missions in retrospect).

 

 Are you giving xp per session or Mission Objective? Switching to xp per Mission Objective will slow down their Exp and make Renown go faster in comparison. Unless you will make all Objectives into Veteran, in which case  they will actually gain xp a little bit faster than Renown.

 

Edited by Alank2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been running this game for nearly a year now and I still manage to learn something new every day. I hadn't realized there were rules for renown awards, so I've been winging it. 1 point here and there for killing tough creatures without help, 3 or 4 for completing missions. My players are just starting to crack 4th level and are within a point or three of the 3rd level of renown. They are close enough to start thinking about what they can get, at least. Maybe it's a good thing they don't read the rules, or they'd all be bare-headed black templars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, I'd say they actually do correspond with each other in one way - they both serve as a measurement of how experienced and/or known is your Marine and Kill-Team.

 

But they don't. They are about different things.

You can be a veteran of countless battles, who has honed his skills up to perfection, but you still remain a Sergeant. Yes, your Captain comes to you for advice sometimes, because he started under your command century ago, but you wear the same bolter and chainsword as always.

Or you can be a rising star in the Deathwatch for some reason - maybe it is your true calling to be a xenos-hunter - so you are trusted to carry the sacred Relics even if there are many others with much greater experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Actually, I'd say they actually do correspond with each other in one way - they both serve as a measurement of how experienced and/or known is your Marine and Kill-Team.

 

But they don't. They are about different things.

You can be a veteran of countless battles, who has honed his skills up to perfection, but you still remain a Sergeant. Yes, your Captain comes to you for advice sometimes, because he started under your command century ago, but you wear the same bolter and chainsword as always.

Or you can be a rising star in the Deathwatch for some reason - maybe it is your true calling to be a xenos-hunter - so you are trusted to carry the sacred Relics even if there are many others with much greater experience.

 

+1, I like this explanation. Still, I'm going to make some Renown-reducing changes so they at least have something to do with their Renown. Maybe I'll introduce 100-120 range of Renown, Legend, so that they can lower their Requisiton by 1 step as per rules (and gain + rank x 1d10 Requisition for mission) and still have access to Hero gear... nah, this sounds too OP, I'll probably do something else. Still, thanks for input!

 

 

I've been running this game for nearly a year now and I still manage to learn something new every day. I hadn't realized there were rules for renown awards, so I've been winging it. 1 point here and there for killing tough creatures without help, 3 or 4 for completing missions. My players are just starting to crack 4th level and are within a point or three of the 3rd level of renown. They are close enough to start thinking about what they can get, at least. Maybe it's a good thing they don't read the rules, or they'd all be bare-headed black templars.

 

 Bare-headed Black Templars are also Fate Point-less Black Templars, unlike Bear-headed Wolf Scouts with 100+ on Silent Move ;). Also, when fighting Tyranids, in void, toxic atmosphere, or irradiated area, you NEED helmet. And while fighting Tau, bare head is just an invitation for getting some very serious Energy damage to the face. 

My players joke that going without helmet is a tradeoff of 1 FP=1 Renown, and while it's not necessary 100% accurate, they avoid going without helmet. And the last time they took Oath of Glory, their Kill-Team Leader (who already had a Power Armour history of being extremely unlucky commander) ordered a charge against 30 Chaos Space Marines, and one of his brothers sacrificed himself to save the rest while they escaped. They're not going to take this Oath for a long time, if at all.

Long story short, aside from Wolf Scout and Tyrannic War Veteran, none of them are getting bonus Renown unless they do something absolutely epic. If your players want to go without helmets, go ahead - they either like the smell of burning Fate Points in the morning, or are geniuses in tactics and silent move (and really like taking huge risks).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1, I like this explanation. Still, I'm going to make some Renown-reducing changes so they at least have something to do with their Renown. Maybe I'll introduce 100-120 range of Renown, Legend, so that they can lower their Requisiton by 1 step as per rules (and gain + rank x 1d10 Requisition for mission) and still have access to Hero gear... nah, this sounds too OP, I'll probably do something else. Still, thanks for input!

 

How about stick to RAW at first missions, but raise the requirements for Renown rewards lately? After all, that is heroic deed for a newbie is just an ordinary day for veteran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

+1, I like this explanation. Still, I'm going to make some Renown-reducing changes so they at least have something to do with their Renown. Maybe I'll introduce 100-120 range of Renown, Legend, so that they can lower their Requisiton by 1 step as per rules (and gain + rank x 1d10 Requisition for mission) and still have access to Hero gear... nah, this sounds too OP, I'll probably do something else. Still, thanks for input!

 

How about stick to RAW at first missions, but raise the requirements for Renown rewards lately? After all, that is heroic deed for a newbie is just an ordinary day for veteran.

 

 I actually went with an idea of allowing my players to "burn" Renown in order to get some additional Requisiton - they will probably catch it once they realize that they have some Renown to spare, and they can use if to fulfill more Objectives.

 Renown for Objectives is one thing, but in long campaigns failing something important can be a real pain later on, more than not getting Hero items those 2-3 mission earlier.

Edited by Alank2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see view this as a problem.  When I ran, the players were chomping at the bit to get to the higher levels of renown so they could get the cool toys.  And if they have cool gear that means more dangerous missions.  Instead of "kill the Hive Tyrant", it becomes "Kill the Hive Tyrant, guarded by Hive Guard, and there are a few Zoenthropes hanging around as well..."

 

Also, there are ways of losing renown.  This is a good way to inflict consequences for poor behavior.  Mock an inquisitor?  Lose renown.  Execute a noble of the Imperium for "being lippy"?  There's some more renown gone.  Some missions may require the kill team to work with xenos to achieve a greater goal, and that's a -5 to renown no matter what the circumstances.

Actually if a KT absolutely must, for the good of humanity, work with a xenos then I would likely have them gain respect for being able to overcome their hatred and distrust of them and do their duty. After all, the DWs favorite member of the ordo chronos works with an eldar and even (holy heresy!) carries an eldar weapon. (Come on, lady! No amount of purity seals can keep us from recognizing an eldar crafted halberd!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are rules for using Renown in Rites of Battle, p200-203. As influence etc.

 

Oath of Glory would be fantastic even without the Renown gain; the squad abilities it allows are that good.

 

I give xp per session, with bonuses at times (generally mission completion or really good roleplay). I've cut back from what I was giving and that seems to have done the trick. Ideally, I'd like them to reach Hero renown around Rank 7-8.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My group recently missed out on completing an objective - one of them did the stoopid and another kept fluffing rolls, so they had to fall back as they were getting chewed up.  The look on their faces when I knocked a Renown off them...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the risk of repeating points already mentioned I would like to say 2 things:

1. Rites of battle has an extension on how renown can be awarded and taken away. Its very good if you are creating your own missions but also to apply to book missions.

2. Renown can be LOST as well. Exp cannot. So a kill team can goof up and loss 2-5 renown depending on how bad. Apply these rules my KT has earned 18,000 exp so far with 44 renown. So thats 409 exp per point of renown which falls within your range.

 

I think of it as Renown is a reflection of how well they did on their mission as perceived by others and exp a measure of how much they learnt from the mission. So in that respect I don't think they are really related. You could be a badass Assault Marine but no one notices your explots and your renown is still ****.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...