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Lyraeus

Discussion Time: New life for the VSD

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I have many issues with those comparisons, Lyraeus. Particularly the titles.

VSD titles:

Corruptor is great, but is specifically Bombers and then semi locks you into Squad commands for that VSD. It's a role defining title, which is fine but rhag should be noted (something that you definitely skipped happily past.)

Warlord is also great, but limited by the VSD's not that amazing firepower. On a 1 it's generally shoring up a weaker long ranged game and on a 2 it's on an expensive platform (when considering cost per laser bolt.) Definitely a great and useful title, but hardly definitively better than Relentless.

Dominator is much better with the advent of Projection Expert ITDs. That said, it's still expensive and costly (cost Beng the reduction of shields and potential exposure to enemy fire), and it also relies heavily on a second ship to shore up its newly added defensive weaknesses. Again though, it can be good but is hardly a no brainer.

ISD titles:

Relentless is an amazing title. You say that Slicer Tools make it irrelevant but I would argue strongly against that, especially if the Relentless player can angle to remove that threat after its first run. Relentless is an incredible adaptation tool and is also very cheap.

Avenger is also a very powerful tool, much like Dominator is, but instead of reducing your own defences to fuel it it relies on hitting your opponent earlier. Or does it? One of the threat vectors of Avenger is that people are wary of spending their most important defence tokens against earlier fire (like a Gladiator, or a red range VSD) just to keep their Braces available for Avenger's knockout punch.

If someone specifically avoids spending early Braces, that can be enough benefit from Avenger alone, as it can net you the same kind of benefit without ever actually triggering! And while that may never come to pass, it is something to bear in mind...and you can of course aim to trigger it yourself with an Overload Pulse Raider-2/ITD, and get a nasty hit near guaranteed.

Finally there's Devastator. Definitely a title black sheep, but it has some value compared to Dominator. In a meta where we have Intel Officers flying around and lots of small hits courtesy of TRC90s, Devastator can benefit from its own failing defences. While no player ever wants to sacrifice their defence tokens sometimes it's the best move (against an Intel Officer or OLP you might be forced into that decision) and the advantage that Devastator bring is that while it is getting weaker and weaker - defensively - it begins to hit harder and harder in return.

That said, it's still a ballache of a title thanks to the front arc/once per turn limitations, but it's not quite as clear cut as you make out.

Anyway, that's my title counter spotlight, tune in next week for probably nothing :)

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I'm not in a vacuum.

Remember, G-8 does not work beyond speed 5, which is a big problem for the Interdictor.  While it might be able to stop the Engine Techs maneuver, that still leaves the Liberty rushing deep into the lines at a target of its choice.  And even if it is then slowed down by the G-8 or Konstantin, it will still continue to go forward by a minimum of speed 2 (either by adding speed to counteract, or by pushing forward at speed 1 and triggering Engine Techs) as long as it uses a navigate.

Throw a Tantive 4 or  Leia or Comms Net in there if you want to worry about Slicer Tools.  It's cool.  But after you do so, Rebels will have around 90-100 points left to spend on ships before they even hit their squadron cap.  Imperials are pushing 270 with ONLY a Suppression Interdictor with G-8s, 2 VSD-1s, and Konstantin.  

 

Interdictor might boost the VSD strengths a bit by letting them get on target more often, but the weaknesses - terrible navigation chart, immense cost, wonky armament layout, and lack of defensive retrofits - are still there and can still be ruthlessly exploited by most all-comers lists.

 

Technically space is a vacuum....

 

But while we're on the subject of pew pew and plastic ships, Lyraeus is spot on. There's a local player here that also plays VSDs from time to time and even I employ them occasionally.  While I appreciate there is a "hint" of truth in what you're trying to say, justifying the same old tactics to defeat this kind of setup when obviously both the rebel and imperial build outs have changed is just way too much conjecture for my blood.

 

The scenario you lay out several posts above is I think pretty much a fantasy of perfect conditions, perfect dice, perfect everything. The table top just doesn't produce that kind of game, even in the hands of experienced great play. 

 

The fun part is we have a but awhile to wait and we can play this out. I'm ready for it :-)

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I think if you want to push activations, you're going to need to consider VSD's in an INT equipped fleet. Unless you like naked ISD's, and even then, it's quite a bit of points.

I think the trick of using a fleet like Lyr is describing is the committing to the board control aspect of the game. I'm not saying it will be the best fleet, but it's worth exploring.

I think if you learn to fly Victories first, you end up getting the keys to mastering Imperial ship flight. Sometimes speed is not your friend.

But what the hell do I know. I've played more games against myself than I have vs random people. :D

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I want to sit on the fence on the main issue, but I have an overwhelming sense of the fact that with wave 4 the game will have changed and it is not all that impossible that the VSD may be a worthy ship.

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How many people see Speed 3 ISD's consistently? I don't.

I run speed 3 Nav spam ISD's all the time.

I still don't understand how you are winning all these games.

I have seen so many speed 3 ISD's just take a beating wince they over commit.

I have many issues with those comparisons, Lyraeus. Particularly the titles.

VSD titles:

Corruptor is great, but is specifically Bombers and then semi locks you into Squad commands for that VSD. It's a role defining title, which is fine but rhag should be noted (something that you definitely skipped happily past.)

Warlord is also great, but limited by the VSD's not that amazing firepower. On a 1 it's generally shoring up a weaker long ranged game and on a 2 it's on an expensive platform (when considering cost per laser bolt.) Definitely a great and useful title, but hardly definitively better than Relentless.

Dominator is much better with the advent of Projection Expert ITDs. That said, it's still expensive and costly (cost Beng the reduction of shields and potential exposure to enemy fire), and it also relies heavily on a second ship to shore up its newly added defensive weaknesses. Again though, it can be good but is hardly a no brainer.

ISD titles:

Relentless is an amazing title. You say that Slicer Tools make it irrelevant but I would argue strongly against that, especially if the Relentless player can angle to remove that threat after its first run. Relentless is an incredible adaptation tool and is also very cheap.

Avenger is also a very powerful tool, much like Dominator is, but instead of reducing your own defences to fuel it it relies on hitting your opponent earlier. Or does it? One of the threat vectors of Avenger is that people are wary of spending their most important defence tokens against earlier fire (like a Gladiator, or a red range VSD) just to keep their Braces available for Avenger's knockout punch.

If someone specifically avoids spending early Braces, that can be enough benefit from Avenger alone, as it can net you the same kind of benefit without ever actually triggering! And while that may never come to pass, it is something to bear in mind...and you can of course aim to trigger it yourself with an Overload Pulse Raider-2/ITD, and get a nasty hit near guaranteed.

Finally there's Devastator. Definitely a title black sheep, but it has some value compared to Dominator. In a meta where we have Intel Officers flying around and lots of small hits courtesy of TRC90s, Devastator can benefit from its own failing defences. While no player ever wants to sacrifice their defence tokens sometimes it's the best move (against an Intel Officer or OLP you might be forced into that decision) and the advantage that Devastator bring is that while it is getting weaker and weaker - defensively - it begins to hit harder and harder in return.

That said, it's still a ballache of a title thanks to the front arc/once per turn limitations, but it's not quite as clear cut as you make out.

Anyway, that's my title counter spotlight, tune in next week for probably nothing :)

Relentless is nice but it eats into your bid and there is not a big difference with an ISD at command 2 or 3. Add in the up and coming slicer Tools and you will have pretty much no difference becuase your commands will be this you don't want.

Avenger is too predictable. I know you will wait to activate Avenger. I can use that to my advantage. Any player can.

Devastator is not that great either. For its points you. Get 1 Boosted attack which might not occur till turn 3 to 4 and you might not survive to do it again.

The titles are balanced here but I still prefer the VSD's spread of titles because you can do a bit of everything with them

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Oh my days, Pilots post just brought up a great idea:

 

Tagge, Interdoctor, Dominator and Devestator.

 

Oh keep that sheer power alive and it will be destructive.

 

(Tagge allows devestator to abuse a single defense token for a while)

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Oh my days, Pilots post just brought up a great idea:

 

Tagge, Interdoctor, Dominator and Devestator.

 

Oh keep that sheer power alive and it will be destructive.

 

(Tagge allows devestator to abuse a single defense token for a while)

At least get the token back.

I like that setup. The Interdoctor can do a lot of work there. Hmmm add in a repair crew ship and you can hold off some bad days.

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Relentless is nice but it eats into your bid and there is not a big difference with an ISD at command 2 or 3. Add in the up and coming slicer Tools and you will have pretty much no difference becuase your commands will be this you don't want.

That's immensely reductionist. Yes Slicer Tools can hurt it but what you're saying here is that Relentless (a 3pt title) is basically moot because one more expensive ability on a specific kind of ship that has to manoeuvre in relatively close and can then choose specifically Relentless to change the dial of.

Not only is Slicer Tools not the be all and end all, it's not entirely uncounterable - the best counter, of course, being to blow it out of space.

In all likelihood, Slicer Tools will affect Relentless probably once before the ISD or another ship removes the threat. Or Relentless speeds off, or Slicer Tools has another target.

Assuming that Slicer Tools will target Relentless to the degree that that title is basically worthless is beyond wrong, especially when the cost of the title is tiny compared to the investment in Slicer Tools and the ease of removal of each.

Avenger is too predictable. I know you will wait to activate Avenger. I can use that to my advantage. Any player can.

If it's so predictable, then surely your response will be equally predictable? If you're positioned to take advantage of Avenger going second always and forever without fail, then it would follow that anyone expecting that can in turn be taken advantage by a canny player by actually activating Avenger before and getting a better than expected shot off .

But of course, I'm sure that not using an ability for one turn will render it obsolete as well ;)

Devastator is not that great either. For its points you. Get 1 Boosted attack which might not occur till turn 3 to 4 and you might not survive to do it again.

The titles are balanced here but I still prefer the VSD's spread of titles because you can do a bit of everything with them

Devastator isn't great, I agree. My point, however was that it has some advantages over Dominator namely that it can get more dice and gets more powerful as the ship becomes more fragile through the course of a battle, whereas Dominator is actively making a ship weaker.

Again, point being that while I'd probably agree with your assessment that VSD titles are generally better overall, they're far from just straight up better; they are situationally a lot better, but situationally a lot worse and, debatably, on a far worse platform.

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You are dropping your dial count down to 2. That is fine. Some players need that some don't. That is all on play. Personally, I dont see Relentless often anymore and with Slicer Tools coming out that will likely not change much.

 

Is it nice to have 2 command dials instead of 3? Yes, do you honestly need that or does it do anything for you other than making predictions easier to manage? No.

 

Thus some still need it, some do not.

 

Lets see, ah yes, Avenger.

 

SO lets look at it this way. If Avenger is not going later in the turn then it is not getting its effect. Now a majority of humans look at a card and put in their mind what they need to do to make that card work. (This is the same way with Advanced Gunnery as well) This means that people will subconsciously tell themselves that they need to do X to get Y. Now I toyed with Avenger using squadron commands to get its effect at any time and that works but is predicated on if you with the squadron war or your intel survives. 

 

Now with Advanced Gunnery, people LOVE putting them on their biggest, most expensive ship. That is what it is there for right? Well there are players who pick that objective just to hunt that ship. That is the same psychology that is used in Avenger. 

 

Will Avenger always go last? No, but 4 out of 5 times it will be going later in the turn. That is why it is predictable. 

 

Glad we agree on Devastator.

 

Now Dominator does indeed actively make a ship weaker but that is easily mitigated. The Interdoctor, Tarkin, an Engineering command/Token all help. It is easy to use but just hard to fit into a list.

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I thought about it, and the VSD-II is one of the only carrier ships in the game right now to mount an ion cannon with a high squadron command value. I'd like to see what the new flight commander can do on an Overload Pulse VSD with Expanded Hangars and a full kit of TIE Bombers. Take Screed and you can kick that every time. Take initative and you can do it first. VSDs can also take flight controllers, so if they try to tie up your fighters, activating them could give all those bombers two dice to fight back.

 

Thing is, the MC80 and Liberty can do this trick also, and be more dangerous about it... though for more points.

The VSD 2 gets a bad rap I think. The average is 5 damage which means it is perfect for Xi7 as well as the Warlord and H9 combo.

 

The VSD is a great back line threat. It can turn as needed and when it gets in it will hurt what it aims at.

 

 

the bad rap is from being, if I remember right, the most expensive "upgrade" out of all ship-types

 

it's a massive 12 point bump from VSD-1 to 2. Even the ISD-1 to 2 is a 10 point difference :blink:

 

poor thing could certainly stand to be cheaper

 

VSD-1s, though, I don't have much beef with apart from dice farts screwing them over. If the thing you finally caught at close range + front-arc is met with a bunch of blank dice and it gets to overshoot you next turn...well, can't think of any worse feeling available in armada atm

 

still, it's a chuncky thing for its price even if that one brace turns it into Home One's favorite pinata

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I thought about it, and the VSD-II is one of the only carrier ships in the game right now to mount an ion cannon with a high squadron command value. I'd like to see what the new flight commander can do on an Overload Pulse VSD with Expanded Hangars and a full kit of TIE Bombers. Take Screed and you can kick that every time. Take initative and you can do it first. VSDs can also take flight controllers, so if they try to tie up your fighters, activating them could give all those bombers two dice to fight back.

 

Thing is, the MC80 and Liberty can do this trick also, and be more dangerous about it... though for more points.

The VSD 2 gets a bad rap I think. The average is 5 damage which means it is perfect for Xi7 as well as the Warlord and H9 combo.

 

The VSD is a great back line threat. It can turn as needed and when it gets in it will hurt what it aims at.

 

 

the bad rap is from being, if I remember right, the most expensive "upgrade" out of all ship-types

 

it's a massive 12 point bump from VSD-1 to 2. Even the ISD-1 to 2 is a 10 point difference :blink:

 

poor thing could certainly stand to be cheaper

 

VSD-1s, though, I don't have much beef with apart from dice farts screwing them over. If the thing you finally caught at close range + front-arc is met with a bunch of blank dice and it gets to overshoot you next turn...well, can't think of any worse feeling available in armada atm

 

still, it's a chuncky thing for its price even if that one brace turns it into Home One's favorite pinata

 

I agree with this. It is one reason I try not to throw it out first. It needs support.

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Devastator is not that great either. For its points you. Get 1 Boosted attack which might not occur till turn 3 to 4 and you might not survive to do it again.

The titles are balanced here but I still prefer the VSD's spread of titles because you can do a bit of everything with them

Guess what happens if you don't shoot at Devastator?

It still shoots you as a fully powered ISD2.

Guess what happens if you stay out of its front arc?

The other 2-3 ships and numerous squadrons eat you.

Guess what happens if you focus all your power on it?

It removes at least one equally valuable enemy ship, and possibly two, from the game.

I've yet to play against someone without them acknowledging Devastator as a viable title by the end of the game, win or lose.

Edited by thecactusman17

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Devastator is not that great either. For its points you. Get 1 Boosted attack which might not occur till turn 3 to 4 and you might not survive to do it again.

The titles are balanced here but I still prefer the VSD's spread of titles because you can do a bit of everything with them

Guess what happens if you don't shoot at Devastator?

It still shoots you as a fully powered ISD2.

Guess what happens if you stay out of its front arc?

The other 2-3 ships and numerous squadrons eat you.

Guess what happens if you focus all your power on it?

It removes at least one equally valuable enemy ship, and possibly two, from the game.

I've yet to play against someone without them acknowledging Devastator as a viable title by the end of the game, win or lose.

I have yet to acknowledge it. Care to put it to the test?

If you are running Devastator, 2-3 ships, there won't be many threats other than Devastator.

I am not saying that Devastator can not be a threat, I am saying that by the time you get it online most rebel players will be in a side arc or your Devastator is dead. That is my experience watching it being played and playing against it.

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You are dropping your dial count down to 2. That is fine. Some players need that some don't. That is all on play. Personally, I dont see Relentless often anymore and with Slicer Tools coming out that will likely not change much.

 

Is it nice to have 2 command dials instead of 3? Yes, do you honestly need that or does it do anything for you other than making predictions easier to manage? No.

 

Thus some still need it, some do not.

 

Lets see, ah yes, Avenger.

 

SO lets look at it this way. If Avenger is not going later in the turn then it is not getting its effect. Now a majority of humans look at a card and put in their mind what they need to do to make that card work. (This is the same way with Advanced Gunnery as well) This means that people will subconsciously tell themselves that they need to do X to get Y. Now I toyed with Avenger using squadron commands to get its effect at any time and that works but is predicated on if you with the squadron war or your intel survives. 

 

Now with Advanced Gunnery, people LOVE putting them on their biggest, most expensive ship. That is what it is there for right? Well there are players who pick that objective just to hunt that ship. That is the same psychology that is used in Avenger. 

 

Will Avenger always go last? No, but 4 out of 5 times it will be going later in the turn. That is why it is predictable. 

 

Glad we agree on Devastator.

 

Now Dominator does indeed actively make a ship weaker but that is easily mitigated. The Interdoctor, Tarkin, an Engineering command/Token all help. It is easy to use but just hard to fit into a list.

 

Avenger will not always going later in the turn.

 

I have had pretty outstanding success running OLP/Avenger on the same ship and being player one, it is all sorts of nasty going last/first and double arc, side first for the OLP, then front with no def tokens. Or even better picking an opponents Advanced gunnery and double arcing with the front.

 

Easily mitigated, Interdoctor, Tarkin, engineering command/token, so basically designing the fleet around Dominator then?

Edited by TheEasternKing

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You are dropping your dial count down to 2. That is fine. Some players need that some don't. That is all on play. Personally, I dont see Relentless often anymore and with Slicer Tools coming out that will likely not change much.

 

Is it nice to have 2 command dials instead of 3? Yes, do you honestly need that or does it do anything for you other than making predictions easier to manage? No.

 

Thus some still need it, some do not.

 

Lets see, ah yes, Avenger.

 

SO lets look at it this way. If Avenger is not going later in the turn then it is not getting its effect. Now a majority of humans look at a card and put in their mind what they need to do to make that card work. (This is the same way with Advanced Gunnery as well) This means that people will subconsciously tell themselves that they need to do X to get Y. Now I toyed with Avenger using squadron commands to get its effect at any time and that works but is predicated on if you with the squadron war or your intel survives. 

 

Now with Advanced Gunnery, people LOVE putting them on their biggest, most expensive ship. That is what it is there for right? Well there are players who pick that objective just to hunt that ship. That is the same psychology that is used in Avenger. 

 

Will Avenger always go last? No, but 4 out of 5 times it will be going later in the turn. That is why it is predictable. 

 

Glad we agree on Devastator.

 

Now Dominator does indeed actively make a ship weaker but that is easily mitigated. The Interdoctor, Tarkin, an Engineering command/Token all help. It is easy to use but just hard to fit into a list.

 

Avenger will not always going later in the turn.

 

I have had pretty outstanding success running OLP/Avenger on the same ship and being player one, it is all sorts of nasty going last/first and double arc, side first for the OLP, then front with no def tokens. Or even better picking an opponents Advanced gunnery and double arcing with the front.

 

Easily mitigated, Interdoctor, Tarkin, engineering command/token, so basically designing the fleet around Dominator then?

People let you get that double arc? Wow. I don't see that often.

If you are going first I guess it happens.

Designing the list around the Interdoctor! Make use of those Tarkin Bucks!

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People let you get that double arc? Wow. I don't see that often.

Have you never gotten a double arc in your Armada career? Because that's basically what you're saying.

Without possible last/first activations (which is what EasternKing was saying) getting a double isn't too difficult, but even without last/first you can still engineer it. Particularly with Imperials in Wave 4 with all the potential slowdown shenanigans.

Edited by Pilot no55389

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People let you get that double arc? Wow. I don't see that often.

Have you never gotten a double arc in your Armada career? Because that's basically what you're saying.

Especially with possible last/first activations (which is what EasternKing was saying) getting a double isn't easy, but even without last/first you can still engineer it. Particularly with Imperials in Wave 4 with all the potential slowdown shenanigans.

I rarely ever see ISD first last activations. They usually don't outbid DtO and so at best get last activation until they lose a ship.

As for a double arc. I will refer you to my video link

Edited by Lyraeus

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Ran this today against an ISD/ 2 Raider/ fireball build with success. Lost one VSD, killed his ISD and killed every last one of his squads, while only losing my rhymer. I wonder how it would fare against ship heavier lists though.

Fleet Summary Page (397 of 400 pts) Faction: The Empire Commander: Darth Vader (36 pts) Flagship: (95 pts) Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 pts)Intel Officer (7 pts) Boosted Comms (4 pts) Slaved Turrets (6 pts) Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 pts)

Fleet Ship 1: (95 pts) Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 pts) Intel Officer (7 pts) Boosted Comms (4 pts) Slaved Turrets (6 pts) Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 pts)

Fleet Ship 2: (53 pts) Raider I-class Corvette (44 pts) Ordnance Experts (4 pts) Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 pts)

Squadrons (118 of 134 pts): 1x Howlrunner Tie Fighter Squadron (16 pts) 1x Punishing One - Dengar (20 pts) 1x Mauler Mithel Tie Fighter Squadron (15 pts) 1x Major Rhymer Tie Bomber Squadron (16 pts) 1x Sontir Fel Tie Interceptor Squadron (18 pts) 3x Tie Interceptor Squadron (33 pts) Objectives: Most Wanted , Contested Outpost , Intel Sweep

I should also note that my VSD's took exclusively front arc shots, despite the ISD running speed three for most of it...

Edited by MandalorianMoose

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Konstantine and the VSD

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 399/400

Commander: Admiral Konstantine

Assault Objective: Most Wanted

Defense Objective: Contested Outpost

Navigation Objective: Intel Sweep

[ flagship ] Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)

- Admiral Konstantine ( 23 points)

- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)

- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)

- Leading Shots ( 4 points)

= 128 total ship cost

Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)

- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)

- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)

- Leading Shots ( 4 points)

= 105 total ship cost

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams ( 6 points)

= 83 total ship cost

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams ( 6 points)

= 83 total ship cost

Card view link

Fleet created with Armada Warlords

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People let you get that double arc? Wow. I don't see that often.

Have you never gotten a double arc in your Armada career? Because that's basically what you're saying.

Without possible last/first activations (which is what EasternKing was saying) getting a double isn't too difficult, but even without last/first you can still engineer it. Particularly with Imperials in Wave 4 with all the potential slowdown shenanigans.

Funny thing happened with my opponents ISD on Vassal.

He used G-8 on his Interdictor to slow my Nebulon-B which was in the front arc of his ISD which made me go to 1 temporarily, thankfully I had a Nav dial (strongest command out there) and was able to exploit the fact that the ISD has a really high angle arc in the front. It allowed me to slip right into the side arc with no issue

That would not of happened on a VSD due to the fact that they have a much wider angle front arc (annoyingly so)

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