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Move... into a lightsaber

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Hi guys,

 

I could need your advise or oppinion on the following:

 

A player at my table (sage/healer) has the move power, plain basic + 1 range and 1 strength upgrade.

so he is able to grab a Stormtrooper at short range und let it fly with in the short range.

 

So far so well.

 

Now we had an encounter with a lot of troopers. He grabed one and: "I want to let him fly over here right throught my lightsaber"

 

Now I had a problem... basicly the player was inright that he can move the white bucket over to him... but at the same time to allow him to maneuver him exactly through the lightsaber (to inflict the sabers basic damage with breach) seemed to me like abusing the power.

 

It would mostly like using the force power AND an attack option without having the Talent "The Force is my Ally", or "Lightsaberthrow" or "Draw Closer" or, or, or....

 

 

At this point I decided (at least this time) no, not possible, the next try "Ok then I let him Fly into the activ Lightsaber of our Shien-Expert... it´s the same as if I would let him fly into a sawmill."

 

I just decided that the Stormie drops dead without spreading damage to the whole minion group, (if he would have let him fall from short range down it would also be 10 damge-soak+ 10 Strain (which converts to damage for minions or rivals) Also handed out conflict for mental tourturing (the whole scene takes a minute so he Trooper would realises that he can´t do anything to avoid the fate of beeing sliced into half while flying slowly towrds that cruel glowing light stick.

 

 

 

now I would like to know how would you have handled the situation.

I´m afraid that the player tries to gain the magnitued upgrade and starts to line up whole groups in the air and let them fly through his Lightsaber and killing the whole troop without any combat check at all... (while his actual lightsaber skill is pretty low (1rank))

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Narratively, sure.  But it's not going to do any more damage than the normal Move.  In other words, he doesn't get a freebie.  The player should understand, you can only do so much in one action, now he has to time his Move with his lightsaber attack, or he has to time it with the other character's lightsaber attack.  But he can describe whatever he wants narratively, so if he does 10+successes damage to the stormtrooper, he can narrate that any way he wants, including the stormtrooper being impaled. He doesn't get the benefits of Breach...Soak is still applied, you can chalk that up to imperfect timing on the PC's part...but that's why he will need to invest in those special talents.

 

EDIT:  I just realized I misread...he doesn't have the Control upgrade for throwing damage.  So forget it.  All he can do is Move the stormtrooper close enough to attack him next time.  Chalk that up to the Move taking his full turn before the stormtrooper arrives in place.  In other words, it's not fast enough.

Edited by whafrog

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Hi guys,

 

I could need your advise or oppinion on the following:

 

A player at my table (sage/healer) has the move power, plain basic + 1 range and 1 strength upgrade.

so he is able to grab a Stormtrooper at short range und let it fly with in the short range.

 

So far so well.

 

Now we had an encounter with a lot of troopers. He grabed one and: "I want to let him fly over here right throught my lightsaber"

 

Now I had a problem... basicly the player was inright that he can move the white bucket over to him... but at the same time to allow him to maneuver him exactly through the lightsaber (to inflict the sabers basic damage with breach) seemed to me like abusing the power.

 

It would mostly like using the force power AND an attack option without having the Talent "The Force is my Ally", or "Lightsaberthrow" or "Draw Closer" or, or, or....

 

 

At this point I decided (at least this time) no, not possible, the next try "Ok then I let him Fly into the activ Lightsaber of our Shien-Expert... it´s the same as if I would let him fly into a sawmill."

 

I just decided that the Stormie drops dead without spreading damage to the whole minion group, (if he would have let him fall from short range down it would also be 10 damge-soak+ 10 Strain (which converts to damage for minions or rivals) Also handed out conflict for mental tourturing (the whole scene takes a minute so he Trooper would realises that he can´t do anything to avoid the fate of beeing sliced into half while flying slowly towrds that cruel glowing light stick.

 

 

 

now I would like to know how would you have handled the situation.

I´m afraid that the player tries to gain the magnitued upgrade and starts to line up whole groups in the air and let them fly through his Lightsaber and killing the whole troop without any combat check at all... (while his actual lightsaber skill is pretty low (1rank))

That tactic is a specific Talent called Draw Closer in Niman Disciple. 

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Yeah, I wouldn't allow the PC to get a free lightsaber attack out of the deal.  Against a minion with their low soak and wound thresholds, it's not that big of a deal, but it becomes more of an issue if the PC tries that tactic against a Nemesis.

 

If the PC did have the "hurl objects" Control Upgrade, I'd say just treat it as a normal attack, with the narrative being the minion gets impaled on the lightsaber.  Given that a Silhouette 1 object equates to 10 damage (plus successes), then that's more than enough to take out your average stormtrooper.  However, since the PC is trying for an effect that requires more finesse than "grab and hurl as hard as possible," I'd say requiring the "fine manipulation" Control Upgrade to be able to pull off this stunt wouldn't be out of line.

 

Edit: Actually 2P51 is much closer to the mark, as this exact tactic is the focus of the Draw Closer talent in the Niman Disciple tree.  So given there's a talent that has this precise effect, I wouldn't let the PC get away with using the Move power to replicate the general effect of an existing talent.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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He would have to use one action to use move to move the trooper in range, and then make a lightsaber check to ensure the saber is in a position to hit the trooper. That's 2 actions. So unless the player has a way to take two actions per turn, this would be a two turn operation.

 

Sorry, no free hits.

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So noone suggested the Storm trooper starts blasting at what he was being drawn to given a) they're wielding a light sabre something guaranteed to be easily identified as a very bad thing, b) definitely highlight the conflict involved was thinking about threatening to turn over a light side destiny point to emphasize how bad this suggestion is but I can see that being argued against and c) how many setback dice did you give the light sabre wielder given they're pulling someone as big as themselves (unless we're talking wookie size of course!) towards them whilst trying to wield a light sabre in the other hand...

 

I'd have just stuck to cover and used the storm trooper to bowl over all his fellow troopers reducing the chance they would be firing at me or any of my fellow PCs but yes that is quite a nasty thing to try to pull off!

 

How about they just throw them in a different direction for example anywhere but where you are now and not where you want to go so they're not paying attention to what you're doing which should be sneaking past...

Edited by copperbell

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Here is how I would adjudicate it. With a Successful Ranged Attack roll + Move Power and Upgrades the PC grabs the Trooper and pulls them into his blade so he does the regular Move Damage but it's describes as sabre damage. 


Edit: I changed Successful Attack to Successful Ranged Attack roll for clarity.

If, however, the PC does not have the proper Strength, Range, and Control Upgrades they can't do it.

Edited by FuriousGreg

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Here is how I would adjudicate it. With a Successful Attack + Move Power activation the PC grabs the Trooper and pulls them into his blade so he does the regular Move Damage but it's describes as sabre damage. 

And give the PC two actions?  That's dangerous precedent.

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Draw Closer covers this.  It represents this exact tactic and is an accordingly a high level Talent in the Niman Disciple tree.  I agree, this isn't a tactic any PC should be able to perform and it should require significant xp investment.  It represents a compound, or hybrid Action if you will, something that is essentially 2 Actions, and shouldn't be an option for just any Force user imo.

Edited by 2P51

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Without the Upgrade to cause damage with Move there is no way they are doing damage by moving something.

Without the ability to both Move and Attack in a single round there is no way to do this by himself.

 

There are a few ways this could go down in  an actual session, some would have been posible for this character, others not:

  1. Move the target into engaged with your ally, then Ally takes the next PC Initiative slot and performs an Attack Action, voila, 2 dice rolls from 2 different characters
  2. PC takes the final Initiative slot in a round and performs Move to get the NPC into engaged with them. then they immediately take the first slot in the NEXT round of combat to perform an Attack Action. 2 Dice rolls from the same character (I love this games initiative system for this exact reason)
  3. Using the "Force is My Ally" talent to use Move as a Maneuver then in the same turn perform an Attack Action, 2 Dice rolls from the same character
  4. Use the Draw Closer talent, a single action and representative of extensive practice.

 

Basically this is a complex feat to perform, most people simply cant do it quickly, Niman Disciples can.

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So noone suggested the Storm trooper starts blasting at what he was being drawn to given a) they're wielding a light sabre something guaranteed to be easily identified as a very bad thing, b) definitely highlight the conflict involved was thinking about threatening to turn over a light side destiny point to emphasize how bad this suggestion is but I can see that being argued against and c) how many setback dice did you give the light sabre wielder given they're pulling someone as big as themselves (unless we're talking wookie size of course!) towards them whilst trying to wield a light sabre in the other hand...

 

Per RAW the Trooper couldn´t blast in the same action the PC uses move to move him.

for a) well the force users were the prime targed (so thats covered)

for b) I highlighted the conflict by giving  some conflict points to mr not so shiny knight, but I don´t turn White side DPs as penalyties, per RAW onlythe PC can turn them.

for c) No set back, First of therefor is the Strengthupgrade of the move power, the PC has to invest EXP to be even able to lift a person of the same size. in second he just used the basic Movepower on a minion, so all he had to do is throwing Force.png to generate enougth Forcepoint.png (3 in this case). Against a Nemesis or Important rival it would also requirre a Diciplin vs. ahtletic/coordination check.

 

 

Without the Upgrade to cause damage with Move there is no way they are doing damage by moving something.

 

 

There is one way to inflict damage even without the "Hurl"-Upgrade:

Lift the person high up (with the range Upgrade) and when he is at short, Medium, large distance... just don´t use move anymore and he will fall, per RAW that will deal for short 10 dmg + 10 strain, for medium 20 dmg + 20 Strain and so on... so that would already be possible...

 

Draw Closer covers this.  It represents this exact tactic and is an accordingly a high level Talent in the Niman Disciple tree.  I agree, this isn't a tactic any PC should be able to perform and it should require significant xp investment.  It represents a compound, or hybrid Action if you will, something that is essentially 2 Actions, and shouldn't be an option for just any Force user imo.

 

yes that was my initial thougth too, and the reason why I told the PC "NO"

 

 

again thanks at all!

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Trust me when I say that lifting someone up to 200m and dropping them will give the Force User an enormous amount of conflict. Torture? Yep. Excessive force? Yep. Murder? Probably. Could be 15 conflict for that one single action. And if I was GM I would absolutely Roleplay that out, the screaming, the pleading, the crying, the expressions of love to their family, asking their friends to say goodbye, then the fall, the splat and the silence. Then after all that every single enemy targets the one PC relentlessly. It they get away then Bounty Hunters and Inquisitors flock to them like flies to a bad smell.

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Trust me when I say that lifting someone up to 200m and dropping them will give the Force User an enormous amount of conflict. Torture? Yep. Excessive force? Yep. Murder? Probably. Could be 15 conflict for that one single action. And if I was GM I would absolutely Roleplay that out, the screaming, the pleading, the crying, the expressions of love to their family, asking their friends to say goodbye, then the fall, the splat and the silence. Then after all that every single enemy targets the one PC relentlessly. It they get away then Bounty Hunters and Inquisitors flock to them like flies to a bad smell.

 

;) I just said that it is possible... Not that it will do any good :ph34r:.

And to be honest I would also give the conflict... well not for Murder in an actuall battle, when you know there is no peacefull solution possible anymore, but yes to Torture, Excessive Frce, and 1-2 points conflict for any allied force user to witness this cruellity

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Guest cimmerianthief

I like this idea, because of the many, many salivating options presented to a GM.

 

Assume that whatever existing or new skills work to pull of this intended action. Assume dice pools look sexy and all players are happy.

 

...until the hapless Stormtrooper's very gory death (I expect he will thrash as he attempts escape, making this skewer far more difficult than Pin-the-Tail-on-the-Donkey), forcing witnesses to make Fear-related rolls.

 

...until the Stormtroper captain sees his soldier rise in the air, and orders all troops to fire on that location and character with the Force Power.

 

...until the Stormtrooper, already well aware of Force-related deaths, grins behind his armor and reveals a grenade or thermal detonator.

 

...until the GM throws something larger than a Stormtrooper at the PCs, who have never felt a need to mature combat skills beyond tee-ball practice.

 

...until the PCs earn a reputation of using the Force in combat (this ONE instance is very iconic), thus earning them the attention of every galactic opportunist.

 

In situations like this presented, I remember an old tip given to me as a starting GM. Give the players EVERYTHING they want, but don't forget shipping/handling and taxes.  Basically, there are no free lunches, and the lightsaber character is asking for a free (party-sized) buffet. With great power...

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Here is how I would adjudicate it. With a Successful Attack + Move Power activation the PC grabs the Trooper and pulls them into his blade so he does the regular Move Damage but it's describes as sabre damage. 

And give the PC two actions?  That's dangerous precedent.

 

It's not two Actions. Using the Move Power against a target to do Damage requires both a Successful Ranged Attack roll along with the rolling enough Pips, see pg 284 EotE Move Power. I called that an Attack, which I guess is confusing. I'll go back and fix that :)

Edited by FuriousGreg

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Here is how I would adjudicate it. With a Successful Attack + Move Power activation the PC grabs the Trooper and pulls them into his blade so he does the regular Move Damage but it's describes as sabre damage.

And give the PC two actions?  That's dangerous precedent.

It's not two Actions. Using the Move Power against a target to do Damage requires both a Successful Ranged Attack roll along with the rolling enough Pips, see pg 284 EotE Move Power. I called that an Attack, which I guess is confusing. I'll go back and fix that :)

But the OP states that he doesn't have the upgrade that allows Move to do damage. Only the basic power.

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Yup only Basic + 1 Strength + 1 Range.

NOT the hurl Upgrade

 


...until the Stormtrooper, already well aware of Force-related deaths, grins behind his armor and reveals a grenade or thermal detonator.

 

 

Since the trooper has no action during the PC´s turn, it would need for an Despair.pngto do that but since the roll for the Basicpower against a minion is just with FR Force.png there can´t be any Despair.png ...

 

I can´t bend the rules to protect the rules ;)

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I repeat.

The PC has ONLY Basic Move + 1 Strength upgrade +1 Range Upgrade NOT the Hurl upgrade.

 

And it was ONLY against a minion, so for a basic Move not vs.-Check is needed!

 

The intention was to just let him fly into the Lightsaber-Blade (like let him fly into a sawmill, or over a cliff, or from point A to B)

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Which we have repeatedly told you is not possible with his current character. He simply doesn't have the Discipline and control (pun intended) of The Force required to move a minion all the way to him with enough accuracy and speed to hit his Lightsaber. He currently drops the minion at his feet, the act of moving the Lightsaber into the right position is too distracting.

What I am trying to do is prepare you for the inevitable "but I have the control upgrade now".

Edit: I could definitely have been more clear about that a couple of posts ago, it's my fault too for being vague.

Edited by Richardbuxton

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