The Coming Storm: How to handle defenders

[Mozic 174]

Hey folks,

 

I play at a heavily empire-aligned store as a scum-exclusive player and I've been hearing the lists they're thinking up and it's looking pretty grim for me. I'm trying to come up with some general philosophies to build around to help me weather this coming flood of defender squads, what with their superior jousting values and pointy winged tips.

 

Biggest concern is that low agility ships (the Partybus) seem like a huge risk on paper. Assuming I'm building around 3 Adaptability + Ion + Title Glaives flying at PS7, they're going to be handling 9-12 red dice, also assuming the enemy player knows how to put three arcs on one ship at a time.

 

What I've determined so far:

The Good:

• Most common Defenders will be PS 6-8, leaving space for aces to not have to fight for >PS9 and to allow mid-PS aces (like Guri) to become potentially competitive if she fights for a PS7 with bid.
• Defenders turning suck. They may elect to take ions to improve it, and with TIE x7 theyll be in love with 3 sharps, but their 1 and 2's are going to make knife-fighters have a potential advantage.
• They ain't gon' be boostin.

The Bad:

• Hard to expect consistent damage against 3 agi ships with consistent evade tokens.
• Easy to expect consistent damage from 3 attack ships with white k4's and reliable stress clear in all contexts other than knife-fighting, which they are encouraged to avoid doing anyway.

 

So a competent list will require above average methods to confirm damage while also being able to either endure 9-12 red dice volleys or avoid 2-3 arcs at a time. With a scum loadout, what sort of configurations do you think will be worthwhile? I know I've been liking the idea of Palob for stripping evades specifically, and Guri for potentially getting to play like an ace against the Defender generics.

[blade_mercurial 2,091]

What I've determined so far:

The Good:

•  
• Defenders turning suck. They may elect to take ions to improve it, and with TIE x7 theyll be in love with 3 sharps, but their 1 and 2's are going to make knife-fighters have a potential advantage.
• They ain't gon' be boostin.

Full-disclosure: I'm a Defender fan-boy and will be flying a metric poo-ton of them for the foreseeable future, however, I fly all factions, and Scum are definitely my 2nd favourite.

 

I just want to dispel these 2 'myths'.

 

The first point is a case of not really understanding how TIE Defenders fight.  The lack of 1/2 speed hard turns is irrelevant.  A well flown defender list does not go for a traditional, 'straight-on' joust.  Typically, the defenders will want to approach from different angles and after the first turn of shooting they will split apart and then individually joust on different lines.  You see, what the defender player wants to do is set up a 'ping-pong' effect where his defenders can constantly k-turn back and forth (and not get in each other's way or be blocked).  This allows constant firing turn after turn and ensures that forward arc enemies get obliterated without always being able to return fire.  You want to avoid this at all costs by utilizing 'GTFO' moves rather than short sharp turns/banks (thinking that they are going to try to turn with you is a mistake).

 

Secondly, while its true that most defenders will not use engine upgrade, there are a few that will and it works pretty **** good.  Particularly in conjunction with the X-7 title. 

 

I agree with you that Palob is a pretty decent choice, but you do have to be careful with him----Defenders can easily remove him from the table quickly, so having some way to protect him is adviseable.  

 

It will be pretty rough for Scum, honestly.  Defenders are really good against large-based ships (generally speaking) and most of the Scum's most competitive choices currently are large-based...

 

I'm not really certain what will work good against defenders though.  At the moment, I'm kind of counting on my experience and flying skills to give me an edge over other defender players that hopefully are less experienced at using them...

 

Honestly, I think Scum REALLY need some help with their small-based ships.  Khiraxz, Star Viper and Scyk could all use a bit of a boost to help deal with the Imperial Menace....

[Gilarius 1,906]

I have a feeling that Defenders are going to be like Aggressors - 3 Reds, 3 Greens, slightly less health but 3 of them instead of 2 Aggressors.

 

What kills Aggressors? Blocking, superior positioning to shoot them without getting shot back. What else? Ordnance isn't as good, because 3 greens (so Defenders should do ok against triple U-boats).

 

Scum lack the Aces of the Empire which can do the superior positioning, as do the Rebels (mostly - Poe & Corran aren't terrible at it), but perhaps using a blocker or two to set them up for Bossk/other hard hitter to kill them? Tricky.

A swarm of Scyks?! Dengar & Manaroo? Large ships so the bonus cannon from Tie/Ds don't help (much)? Palob to strip evade/focus tokens from Tie/x7s, Tacticians as crew to stress them?

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

bombs

 

more health to chew through, sure, but nowhere near enough where they can afford to ignore sabine and, in almost every case, no boost to add to b-roll for easy escapes (assuming they're even at high enough PS to be able to react to "drop-on-reveal" bombs

 

 

soon as the promised "scout hard counter" comes through, bombs can have a field-day in the competitive scene

Edited June 29, 2016 by ficklegreendice

[Biophysical 15,761]

Blocking is a lot less important against Defenders than it is against Brobots. The Evade token from the x7 is action independent. I would look to Ion. It both makes the next turn's movement predictable, and it kills the go-fast Evade on x7s. No Defender wants to be caught drifting at close range.

[Gilarius 1,906]

Blocking is a lot less important against Defenders than it is against Brobots. The Evade token from the x7 is action independent. I would look to Ion. It both makes the next turn's movement predictable, and it kills the go-fast Evade on x7s. No Defender wants to be caught drifting at close range.

Good points.

And the bombs, above. That'll help rebels too.

[Timathius 2,152]

Man, I was gonna write inb4 Fickle says bombs..... 

 

 

I actually think scum have a ton of options 

 

DMC- Will ace one in one turn of shooting and then they can team up on the rest. 

 

Dengaroo- no auto thrusters to worry about and your ships are just as maneuverable 

 

Party bus- it will take a beating, but it should survive one round of it to fire off its payload and cripple one of them

 

N'Dru- homing missile on him will be a bit devastating to the defenders

 

4-lom and zuckuss crew. 

 

It won't be easy, at all, but scum definitely have options. And yes, the small base ships really need help. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by Timathius

[Maringue 215]

As someone who's been testing out several different combo's in the simulator before running a Defender heavy list, there are some things that you can do against them to make their lives hard. The first is to look at their build and know their dial. I for one almost never put anything other than Mk II engines on them because I like green heavy dials and the Defender gets the most bang for the point on this upgrade. But if someone doesn't have Mk II, know they are probably never going to use their hard 1 or 2 turns.

 

And Blade makes a solid point, Defenders use their K-turns a LOT. So since all of them except for Ryad have a 4-K only, you can do a decent job of predicting where they are going to be. If a Defender just hit you from the front, they are probably going to K-turn to get in behind you and shoot again. So how does this help? First, bombs. Second, inertial dampeners. Both these will really mess up a Defender's strategy.

 

Also, Scum has a lot of large based ships, so the TIE/D-ion combination is going to be slightly less effective against them. Latts has a nice ability for using against Defenders, removing one of their defense dice makes them a lot more vulnerable without an evade action. Also, Defenders tend to be flown with the "I can take that damage" attitude, so they don't save their tokens for defense. Zuckuss has a nasty knack for really hurting my Defenders when I've been simulating fights, especially when he can get into range 1 with a focus.

But knowing that a Defender's favorite tactic is to joust, then use the white K-turn and chase you down is going to be important. So when they joust you, drop a bomb and K-turn as well. Even a Defender is not going to be happy to get hit by a bomb then be looking down the barrel of a BTL Y-Wing. Or fly Kath and hit them with a bomb and then roll 4 attack dice while they are behind you.

Which reminds me, Scum Kath is going to be pretty effective against Defenders if you fly her right. And know how to use bombs.

[Mozic 174]

This is some great feedback! I'm liking the notion of ion, I think that Palob outfitted with a cloaking device and an ion turret may be a good balance of offensive and defensive options (obviously understanding that he cant fire when cloaked)

 

Do you think that the Firespray may make an early return here? Operating on the notion that if defenders are k-turning repeatedly to hop behind front arcs, it's less effective if they just hop right into a back arc, plus they're certainly a decent bomb chassis - though I guess just having anything carrying a bomb is perfectly good against a rear-positioned defender.

 

Reading Maringue's throughts, it definitely seems to reinforce those notions.

[SDCC 599]

I'm not going to lie. 

 

I'm reading this just to see what players might do against my Defenders.

[Maringue 215]

Cluster mines can work wonders against Defenders if you place them right since Defenders don't hard turn well at all and they put up a road block to prevent them from ping-ponging back and forth with their K-turn.

[LagJanson 7,318]

You scum guys think you got it rough... I'm flying T-65 X-Wings right now. I still haven't figured out the counter for the jumpmaster threat yet and now this... I'll have the try the GTFO maneuver and see if it helps me.

[Mozic 174]

You scum guys think you got it rough... I'm flying T-65 X-Wings right now. I still haven't figured out the counter for the jumpmaster threat yet and now this... I'll have the try the GTFO maneuver and see if it helps me.

 

Some of your woes may be in part self-inflicted  I think that being prepared to kite may be the smart way to handle things, probably through asteroids to keep them from chasing with 3 arcs on you. Bombs will certainly help break up the formation. Maybe grab some of our bomb loadouts and slap them onto your y-wings on the cheap just to have a couple blockers that can also lay down a screen to cover a retreat?

[Maringue 215]

You scum guys think you got it rough... I'm flying T-65 X-Wings right now.

I think I've spotted your problem....

[Rakaydos 4,236]

Mandalorian Mercenary (35)
Crack Shot (1)
Proton Bombs (5)
Boba Fett (1)
Homing Missiles (5)
Glitterstim (2)
Extra Munitions (2)
Guidance Chips (0)
Slave I (0)

Mandalorian Mercenary (35)
Crack Shot (1)
Ion Cannon (3)
Seismic Charges (2)
Zuckuss (1)
Homing Missiles (5)
Glitterstim (2)
Guidance Chips (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

[LagJanson 7,318]

 

You scum guys think you got it rough... I'm flying T-65 X-Wings right now. I still haven't figured out the counter for the jumpmaster threat yet and now this... I'll have the try the GTFO maneuver and see if it helps me.

 

Some of your woes may be in part self-inflicted  I think that being prepared to kite may be the smart way to handle things, probably through asteroids to keep them from chasing with 3 arcs on you. Bombs will certainly help break up the formation. Maybe grab some of our bomb loadouts and slap them onto your y-wings on the cheap just to have a couple blockers that can also lay down a screen to cover a retreat?

 

 

 

You scum guys think you got it rough... I'm flying T-65 X-Wings right now.

I think I've spotted your problem....

 

 

I like being in this position though... I lull my opponent into a false feeling of strength and wait until all my ships are dead before I unleash my ultimate maneuver. It's like a K-Turn only better. Table Flip.

 

[dotswarlock 2,424]

Don't set your asteroids like a chess board.  Offset them to create a line with each of them both horizontally and vertically that will help with the following:

 

- Make their k-turn more complex (especially after a single bump messes up their orientation)

- Unlike interceptors, if they are forced to follow you around an asteroid using a bank manoeuver because the angle was wrong then they can't use a boost to keep chasing you.

 

Having 3 defenders means having 3 times the same weakness, so place asteroids accordingly.  The above configuration favors jumpmasters.

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

Man, I was gonna write inb4 Fickle says bombs..... 

 

sorry man, I'm like conner nets from a lower ps pilot

 

I detonate before you get to activate

[Mozic 174]

I smell a strong opportunity for some Emon Azzameen too, if bombs and also aux arcs are gonna be the name of the game even prior to the additional wave 9 aux arc buffs.

[LagJanson 7,318]

Sounds like trying to engage from the middle of the asteroid field is a good plan to mess with the long straight templates.

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

I smell a strong opportunity for some Emon Azzameen too, if bombs and also aux arcs are gonna be the name of the game even prior to the additional wave 9 aux arc buffs.

 

so **** expensive though

 

 

honestly, the bomb thing is only effective if you're packing sabine, otherwise defenders are going to soak up that guaranteed damage

 

now imperials aren't badly off due to Deathfire bringing cheap conners on top of LRS homing missile (poor x7 ), not to mention heaps and heaps of dice modifiers (which could just mean more defenders, but hey) but I definitely don't believe it's a job for a dedicated bomber like Deathrain, for example

 

an ASLAM conner K benefitting from Sabine (+/- autoblaster for good measure), however, might have what it takes, esp if said Sabine is actually on a TLT Miranda packing seismics/thermals

 

got enough room for Biggs

[Rakaydos 4,236]

Actually... Mando merc or Emon Azzameen, Slave 1, Extra munition/Proton bomb, Boba Fett. Throw on some Homing missiles and guidance chips for good measure- you've already got the EM.

 

A proton bomb can assasinate the emperor, remove a Tie/D or X7, or destroy R4 Agromech from otherwise full health shuttles, Defenders, or Jumpmasters. And you have a spare if the first one misses.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Rakaydos

[Mozic 174]

Actually... Mando merc or Emon Azzameen, Slave 1, Extra munition/Proton bomb, Boba Fett. Throw on some Homing missiles and guidance chips for good measure- you've already got the EM.

 

A proton bomb can assasinate the emperor, remove a Tie/D or X7, or destroy R4 Agromech from otherwise full health shuttles, Defenders, or Jumpmasters. And you have a spare if the first one misses.

Unfortunately proton bomb cannot trigger Boba Fett, as it's not an attack. I still think protons are the bomb of choice though, sliding 1-2 damage in under the shields with all sorts of neat disruptive effects.

[Magnus Grendel 11,679]

Proton bomb if you want bombs, Connor nets if you want mines. They're a nice large template and hard for a defender to avoid.

 

Blocking still works, but it's harder. Aggressors are surprisingly easy to block because whilst the dial is good, the large base is so **** unwieldy - one TIE fighter at about speed 2 a fraction to one side blocks every green manoeuvre straight on or to that side. Plus, as noted, the X7 evade doesn't care if it hits someone.

 

Ion tokens are a good idea. Stress is less useful because even stressed a defender still gets his evade token and can still turn and koiogran. In fact a TIE/x7 with Wired really couldn't care less about stress tricks.

 

Tractor beams.....less useful. Reducing agility is nice, but the tractor beam's still gotta hit in the first place, and sacrificing a ship's fire to do so means less actual damage following up - and even if you take green dice out of the equation the defender still takes some killing.

 

Connor Net-equipped Deathrain?

Edited June 30, 2016 by Magnus Grendel

[Endman 249]

From my experience tonight, TLTs chew through them. No Autothrusters means having at least two TLTs in your list will eat them alive, free Evade or no.