Zuckuss crew VS Omega Leader

[Mozic 174]

The key here would be that there exists other effects that specifically prevent the spending of tokens (4LOM) which is treated differently as OL, who prevents the modification of dice but not the spending of tokens. Spending a focus token is not a dice modification, but you modify dice in the process of resolving the spending of a focus token.

[WWHSD 9,273]

The key here would be that there exists other effects that specifically prevent the spending of tokens (4LOM) which is treated differently as OL, who prevents the modification of dice but not the spending of tokens. Spending a focus token is not a dice modification, but you modify dice in the process of resolving the spending of a focus token.

 

Where in the rules does it allow to spend a focus for no reason whatsoever? I see multiple places that use almost this same exact wording:

 

"Focus: The attacker can spend a focus token to

change all of his [EYEBALL] results to [HIT] results."

 

There are effects in this game that overlap in their end results but do it through different mechanics. I believe that this is an example of that. Unlike 4-LOM or Carnor Jax, OL doesn't directly stop you from spending focus tokens. If you had an ability on a ship that read "While defending, when you are dealt a face up card you may spend a focus token to flip it face down without resolving it", 4-LOM crew's and Carnor Jax's abilities would prevent that ability from being used but Omega Leader's would do nothing to stop the token from being spent. Omega Leader doesn't stop Latt's Razzi, Kanan, or a ship with ordnance from spending tokens because they have something to spend tokens on other than modifying dice.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

The rules say you can spend a token to modify dice.  But the spending of the token is not the same thing as the modifying of the dice.  Nowhere does it say the two are so connected that the one cannot happen without the other.

 

OL blocks the modifying, not the spending.  Otherwise his card would say he blocks the spending as well as the modifying.  Which it doesn't.

 

If Zuckuss crew were worded 'pick x dice.  Reroll them.  Gain a number of stress tokens equal to the dice rerolled' then OL would stop the stress gaining.  But it's phrased the opposite way around, so he doesn't.

[WWHSD 9,273]

The rules say you can spend a token to modify dice. But the spending of the token is not the same thing as the modifying of the dice. Nowhere does it say the two are so connected that the one cannot happen without the other.

OL blocks the modifying, not the spending. Otherwise his card would say he blocks the spending as well as the modifying. Which it doesn't.

If Zuckuss crew were worded 'pick x dice. Reroll them. Gain a number of stress tokens equal to the dice rerolled' then OL would stop the stress gaining. But it's phrased the opposite way around, so he doesn't.

Without some additional ability, you can only spend focus/target lock/evade tokens to modify dice. If you are unable to modify the dice you have no mechanism on which to spend the tokens.

It's entirely possible that a response from FFG will agree with your interpretation and I'll be fine with that. As things stand both of our opinions are merely our interpretation of the rules. Neither of us have any precendents set by FFG or anything that we can point to in the rules that supports our interpretation as completely correct. Both of our interpretations rely on assumptions about how the rules work behind the scenes and without additional information I don't think that either of us will be able to convice the other.

Edited June 28, 2016 by WWHSD

[muribundi 406]

This will convince no one, but there is a precedent. The Target Lock rule.

In the past, it was clearly said you could not do a Target Lock action on a target already locked. So FFG were implying that you could not do useless stuff to gain side advantage.

But they changed their stance and now you can, implying that you can now do useless stuff to gain side advantage.

This will convince no one but this is the base of my interpretation.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

 

The rules say you can spend a token to modify dice. But the spending of the token is not the same thing as the modifying of the dice. Nowhere does it say the two are so connected that the one cannot happen without the other.

OL blocks the modifying, not the spending. Otherwise his card would say he blocks the spending as well as the modifying. Which it doesn't.

If Zuckuss crew were worded 'pick x dice. Reroll them. Gain a number of stress tokens equal to the dice rerolled' then OL would stop the stress gaining. But it's phrased the opposite way around, so he doesn't.

Without some additional ability, you can only spend focus/target lock/evade tokens to modify dice. If you are unable to modify the dice you have no mechanism on which to spend the tokens.

It's entirely possible that a response from FFG will agree with your interpretation and I'll be fine with that. As things stand both of our opinions are merely our interpretation of the rules. Neither of us have any precendents set by FFG or anything that we can point to in the rules that supports our interpretation as completely correct. Both of our interpretations rely on assumptions about how the rules work behind the scenes and without additional information I don't think that either of us will be able to convice the other.

 

I concur on most counts.  I don't think agreement on focus tokens will come about without FAQ, and I hope it will be FAQed soon, but I've been hoping that for a LOT of unanswered unclarities since Wave 8 dropped without any sign of relief.

 

This specific instance I don't - the sequence written on the card is very clear:

 

Pick any number of dice.  Not forbidden by OL.  Fine, go ahead.

 

Gain that number of stress tokens.  Sure, can do, happy to let you.

 

Reroll the selected dice.  Nope not happening - but OL says nothing about reqinding back to the start of the card and reversing its earlier steps.

[Mozic 174]

I mean, you can spend a focus token in order to trigger R4 Agromech even if you have no focus results available to modify - just to get the free target lock to immediately spend for rerolls. That's a legal thing to do and not having anything available to modify does not change your ability to spend the token. How is that different here?

[WWHSD 9,273]

I mean, you can spend a focus token in order to trigger R4 Agromech even if you have no focus results available to modify - just to get the free target lock to immediately spend for rerolls. That's a legal thing to do and not having anything available to modify does not change your ability to spend the token. How is that different here?

You can spend it because you are modifying your dice. You are changing all of your eyeballs to hits.

[Mozic 174]

 

I mean, you can spend a focus token in order to trigger R4 Agromech even if you have no focus results available to modify - just to get the free target lock to immediately spend for rerolls. That's a legal thing to do and not having anything available to modify does not change your ability to spend the token. How is that different here?

You can spend it because you are modifying your dice. You are changing all of your eyeballs to hits.

 

Right, so in the sequence with TL'd Zuckuss Crew vs. OL it's like this:

 

Attacker: I have elected to take 3 stress by choosing these three dice for rerolling. Please reroll them.

Defender: Nah I don't have to reroll anything but you keep your stress.

[Fin]

 

Sequence with Garven as above:

 

Attacker: I have elected to spend my focus token.

Defender: Okay, OL blocks you from touching any of those focus results though.

Attacker: This is true but I do activate his pilot ability, which isn't a dice modification, and pass the focus token to a valid target.

 

To be more specific, you're spending it because nothing is blocking you from spending it. Omega Leader does not prevent their opponent from spending target locks or focus tokens, it prevents dice modification. Spending tokens is not dice modification, but you spend these tokens in order to modify dice.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Mozic

[muribundi 406]

The funny thing is, in every other board or card game I played, you can always do something, trigger something or any thing else. And if there is a can't you do as much as you can for the rest of the effect.

I never seen a game before that when a part of an effect could not resolve that you are prevented to even start the effect unless the prevention clearly state you can't start the effect.

 

I would be really surprise X-Wing being different.

Edit: I also sent a question to FFG, waiting for an answer.

Edited June 29, 2016 by muribundi

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

The funny thing is, in every other board or card game I played, you can always do something, trigger something or any thing else. And if there is a can't you do as much as you can for the rest of the effect.

I never seen a game before that when a part of an effect could not resolve that you are prevented to even start the effect unless the prevention clearly state you can't start the effect.

 

I would be really surprise X-Wing being different.

Edit: I also sent a question to FFG, waiting for an answer.

Yep.  I'm super biased about situations like this because of my initial grounding in Good Board Games coming from DOminion in which 'do what the card says, in the order it says it, do as much as you can, if you can't, don't, but don't rewind' is one of the core rules.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

I mean, you can spend a focus token in order to trigger R4 Agromech even if you have no focus results available to modify - just to get the free target lock to immediately spend for rerolls. That's a legal thing to do and not having anything available to modify does not change your ability to spend the token. How is that different here?

You can spend it because you are modifying your dice. You are changing all of your eyeballs to hits.

 

Right, so in the sequence with TL'd Zuckuss Crew vs. OL it's like this:

 

Attacker: I have elected to take 3 stress by choosing these three dice for rerolling. Please reroll them.

Defender: Nah I don't have to reroll anything but you keep your stress.

[Fin]

 

Sequence with Garven as above:

 

Attacker: I have elected to spend my focus token.

Defender: Okay, OL blocks you from touching any of those focus results though.

Attacker: This is true but I do activate his pilot ability, which isn't a dice modification, and pass the focus token to a valid target.

 

To be more specific, you're spending it because nothing is blocking you from spending it. Omega Leader does not prevent their opponent from spending target locks or focus tokens, it prevents dice modification. Spending tokens is not dice modification, but you spend these tokens in order to modify dice.

 

 

It's not a multiple step process. It's a single step, "spend the token to modify results". If you can't complete the step, you don't pick and choose the parts of the step that you can complete.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

And that's the point there is disagreement on so can we please just agree that neither of us wins and wait for an FAQ or email?

[Mozic 174]

I get that's where the divide on this confusion lies but you're on the wrong side of that line, man. Especially because in Zuckuss' case the sequence is separated.

 

"When attacking, you may receive any number of stress tokens to choose an equal number of defense dice. The defender must reroll those dice."

Part 1: Pick a number of stress tokens and then pick an equivalent number of dice.

Part 2: The defender rerolls those dice.

 

Part 2 is blocked by Omega Leader, Part 1 is not.

 

For your scenario that involves spending a token, I can't find any rule text that specifically handles the splitting of this hair but I have seen in tournament play a player with Palpatine modify a result to a focus and then try to spend a focus token and realize they couldn't further modify the die, but the token was still spent. OL is in this sense is causing every die to be treated like one that has been already modified by Palpatine (or, like a sensor jammer) - it is locked from being further modified (or in this case, at all) the only difference is that it applies to all of the dice, but the focus token can still be spent.

 

Like, if in the scenario the player had only a single agility die that their Palpatine modified to a focus result, the player can still spend that focus token wastefully.

[WWHSD 9,273]

I get that's where the divide on this confusion lies but you're on the wrong side of that line, man. Especially because in Zuckuss' case the sequence is separated.

 

I don't think I've mentioned Zuckuss. I've only been discussing the default target lock/focus/evade modification options.  I think I agree with you on Zuckuss.

 

 

Like, if in the scenario the player had only a single agility die that their Palpatine modified to a focus result, the player can still spend that focus token wastefully.

 

I can't imagine why you'd use Palpatine to change a blank to a focus instead of just changing it to a hit/crit/evade.

 

 

At this point I'm with thespaceinvader and am going to leave this thread alone until there's new information (email, FAQ upate).

[Mozic 174]

The player in question was trying to be cute and shot themselves in the foot. 

 

 

I'm not trying to tire you out or anything man, I'm clearly struggling to find decent examples to help elaborate the point. Having access to those sorts of interactions can be wicked important - if anything, just using the wording from the 4LOM crew card might be enough to at least establish that there's a clear distinction between when spending tokens entirely is blocked vs. performing modifications is.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Resolved by new FAQ.  OL blocks the whole ability, including paying the costs.  Still not clear whether Garven works I don't think.  The 'modifying 0 dice is modifying dice' argument wins.

[Mozic 174]

Resolved by new FAQ.  OL blocks the whole ability, including paying the costs.  Still not clear whether Garven works I don't think.  The 'modifying 0 dice is modifying dice' argument wins.

 

I actually prefer this outcome, it makes the character's ability more universally simple to understand as a blanket "nah nothin don't even worry about technicalities its just all of it" statement.