Zuckuss crew VS Omega Leader

[Grouvy 20]

I was woundering if Zuckuss crew works on Omega Leader? Example, Dengar pilot is equip with Zuckuss crew member and attack OL who has a TL on Dengar. Can Dengar uses Zuckuss to make OL reroll her green dice?

[Goseki1 637]

Zuckuss crew doesn't work on Omega Leader if he has the lock on.

If I recall the only thing that can alter OLs green Dice is Crackshot.

[bmf 339]

Zuckuss crew doesn't work on Omega Leader if he has the lock on.

If I recall the only thing that can alter OLs green Dice is Crackshot.

 

Omega Leader text is:

"Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks."

 

Zuckus text is:

"When attacking, you may receive any number of stress tokens to choose an equal number of defense dice. The defender must reroll those dice."

 

I would say that Zuckus works because the Omega Leader player is the one rerolling the dice not the Dengar player.

[dotswarlock 2,424]

There is a similiar ruling done concerning R7's ability in this thread (if we apply the same logic, Zuckuss should not work):

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/204981-ol-vs-r4-b11-and-r7-astro/page-3?hl=omega%20leader

 

Copy / pasted and reformated for simplicity's sake:

 

Rules Question:

 

Quote

 

"Omega Leader is fighting Tarn Mison. Tarn has an R7 Astromech equipped. Omega Leader has a Target Lock on Tarn and is attacking him. Tarn's ability grants him a Target Lock on Omega Leader. Omega leader rolls "hit, hit". Tarn wants use the ability granted by R7 to spend his Target Lock to force Omega Leader to reroll his dice. Can Tarn do this or is the reroll considered to be a modification performed by Tarn (and thus prohibited by Omega Leader's ability)? R7 Astromech: "Once per round when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker, you may spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The attacker must reroll the chosen dice." The wording on the R7 Astromech would seem to imply that the the Defender is forcing the Attacker to modify their own dice. Omega Leader: "Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks." Omega Leader's ability only prevents his targeted ship from modifying dice. It would seem to me that Omega Leader is unable to prevent R7 from forcing a reroll."

 

Ruling:

 

"No abilities that involve rerolling your opponent’s dice have you roll them. Instead, we only phrase it with you choosing dice and your opponent rolling them. This is you modifying your opponents dice even though he or she is the one physically rolling the dice. So you cannot use R7 to modify “Omega Leader’s” attack dice."

 

Thanks for playing,

 

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

fbrooks@fantasyflightgames.com

[Goseki1 637]

There's an email from Frank specifically a out Zuckuss and Omega Leader somewhere too (Frank has basically copy and pasted his response). But yeah, even though the Omega Leader player would be physically rerolling his green Dice, it is the Zuckuss player who is modifying them, which Omega Leaders ability blocks.

[Grouvy 20]

Great, thx guys! 

[Mozic 174]

The stranger thing is that hypothetically the Zuckuss-owning player firing on an Omega leader holding a target lock on the attacker could still in theory activate Zuckuss and assume as many stress tokens as he'd like - though the defender still wouldn't reroll anything.

[Goseki1 637]

That's true. Kind of like how people with accuracy corrector against Omega Leader could cancel their Dice, but wouldn't be able to add the two hits back.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

The stranger thing is that hypothetically the Zuckuss-owning player firing on an Omega leader holding a target lock on the attacker could still in theory activate Zuckuss and assume as many stress tokens as he'd like - though the defender still wouldn't reroll anything.

Not quite.  He could activate Zuckuss and take up to as many stress tokens as OL rolled dice and do nothing with them.

[StephenEsven 632]

No he can't take any stress because OL would be forced to reroll that many dice. The reroll per stress is mandatory.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

No he can't take any stress because OL would be forced to reroll that many dice. The reroll per stress is mandatory.

Not this again.

 

He can take the stress, choose the dice, and tell OL to reroll them.  OL's ability THEN kicks in and refuses to do so, after Zuckuss has chosen the dice and taken the stress.

[Parravon 5,217]

 

No he can't take any stress because OL would be forced to reroll that many dice. The reroll per stress is mandatory.

Not this again.

 

He can take the stress, choose the dice, and tell OL to reroll them.  OL's ability THEN kicks in and refuses to do so, after Zuckuss has chosen the dice and taken the stress.

 

Which really makes the whole exercise rather pointless.

[StephenEsven 632]

No he can't take any stress because OL would be forced to reroll that many dice. The reroll per stress is mandatory.

Not this again.

 

He can take the stress, choose the dice, and tell OL to reroll them.  OL's ability THEN kicks in and refuses to do so, after Zuckuss has chosen the dice and taken the stress.

No that is not how it works.

You can spend a TL and choose 0 dice.

You can spend a focus only if there are 0 focus results.

You can use AC and choose not to add 2 optional hit results.

You can't use Sensor Jammer or Predator,and you can't use Zuckuss crew as these are not optional dice modifications.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

 

 

No he can't take any stress because OL would be forced to reroll that many dice. The reroll per stress is mandatory.

Not this again.

 

He can take the stress, choose the dice, and tell OL to reroll them.  OL's ability THEN kicks in and refuses to do so, after Zuckuss has chosen the dice and taken the stress.

No that is not how it works.

You can spend a TL and choose 0 dice.

You can spend a focus only if there are 0 focus results.

You can use AC and choose not to add 2 optional hit results.

You can't use Sensor Jammer or Predator,and you can't use Zuckuss crew as these are not optional dice modifications.

 

You have no source other than your own suppostition for these positions.  Mine is at least written on the card.

 

 

 

No he can't take any stress because OL would be forced to reroll that many dice. The reroll per stress is mandatory.

Not this again.

 

He can take the stress, choose the dice, and tell OL to reroll them.  OL's ability THEN kicks in and refuses to do so, after Zuckuss has chosen the dice and taken the stress.

 

Which really makes the whole exercise rather pointless.

 

Not if you're 4LOM pilot...

[muribundi 406]

This is not pointless, this is rather important. This may be douch baggest, but in a tournement, If I was attacking someone with Omega Leader, and this person clearly said "I take my focus", I would let him do so and then tell him he can't modify his dice. Then on the attack back or if another ship attack him, he would have lost his focus.

 

Game are won on the back of opponent error and not paying attention to the game state.

So this is rather important.

Yes, I won game in the past because my opponent revealed a red maneuver when stressed because he forgot to check. Same thing here.

Edited June 28, 2016 by muribundi

[StephenEsven 632]

But OL prevents you from spending a focus if there are focus reults. Because changing the focus reults is mandatory if you spend the token.

And it is exactly the 4-LOM Zuckuss that makes it important that you do what the card says. And since OL says you cannot modify dice that prevents you from picking any number of dice to modify with Zuckuss

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

But OL prevents you from spending a focus if there are focus reults. Because changing the focus reults is mandatory if you spend the token.

And it is exactly the 4-LOM Zuckuss that makes it important that you do what the card says. And since OL says you cannot modify dice that prevents you from picking any number of dice to modify with Zuckuss

You have no RAW backup for this position.

[muribundi 406]

I would call a judge, and I'm 100% sure the judge will rule that OL does not prevent action it just prevent modification.

Edited June 28, 2016 by muribundi

[WWHSD 9,273]

I would call a judge, and I'm 100% sure the judge will rule that OL does not prevent action it just prevent modification.

 

OL's ability doesn't stop you from taking a focus action but it should stop you from spending the token to modify zero results. Modifying zero results is still modifying results. If you can't modify results you can't spend the token. 

[StephenEsven 632]

 

I would call a judge, and I'm 100% sure the judge will rule that OL does not prevent action it just prevent modification.

 

OL's ability doesn't stop you from taking a focus action but it should stop you from spending the token to modify zero results. Modifying zero results is still modifying results. If you can't modify results you can't spend the token.

 

 

If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

OL states you cannot modify any dice when locked. So you are explicitly prevented from modifying dice. Any ability that contains an optional dice modification (AC) can be triggered but the modification part is prevented. Any ability that has a mandatory dice modification (Zuckuss) is completely prevented from being triggered,

 

 

When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack dice. Additionally, players may spend a focus token even if they do not roll any Focus results. When defending, players may spend focus tokens even if they do not roll any Focus results and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results.

Dice can be modified in the following ways:

• Add: To add a die result, place an unused die displaying the result next to the rolled dice. A die added in this way is treated as a normal die for all purposes and can be modified and canceled.

• Change: To change a die result, rotate the die so that its faceup side displays the new result.

• Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again.

Spending tokens during combat does not in and off itself constitute modifying dice. You are allowed to spend a TL and choose 0 dice, in which case no dice modification takes place. You are prevented from spending a Focus token if you have rolled any Focus results as these modifications are mandatory. But the FAQ clearly states that you can spend a Focus token if you rolled 0 Focus results, and OL can't prevent that because no dice are modified.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

 

 

I would call a judge, and I'm 100% sure the judge will rule that OL does not prevent action it just prevent modification.

 

OL's ability doesn't stop you from taking a focus action but it should stop you from spending the token to modify zero results. Modifying zero results is still modifying results. If you can't modify results you can't spend the token.

 

 

If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

OL states you cannot modify any dice when locked. So you are explicitly prevented from modifying dice. Any ability that contains an optional dice modification (AC) can be triggered but the modification part is prevented. Any ability that has a mandatory dice modification (Zuckuss) is completely prevented from being triggered,

 

 

When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack dice. Additionally, players may spend a focus token even if they do not roll any Focus results. When defending, players may spend focus tokens even if they do not roll any Focus results and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results.

Dice can be modified in the following ways:

• Add: To add a die result, place an unused die displaying the result next to the rolled dice. A die added in this way is treated as a normal die for all purposes and can be modified and canceled.

• Change: To change a die result, rotate the die so that its faceup side displays the new result.

• Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again.

Spending tokens during combat does not in and off itself constitute modifying dice. You are allowed to spend a TL and choose 0 dice, in which case no dice modification takes place. You are prevented from spending a Focus token if you have rolled any Focus results as these modifications are mandatory. But the FAQ clearly states that you can spend a Focus token if you rolled 0 Focus results, and OL can't prevent that because no dice are modified.

 

As last time you posted this argument, there's nothing in the rules to indicate that you cannot spend a token when you cannot perform the modification it grants, whether or not it's mandatory.  Please post reference otherwise if you have one, or stop spreading misinformation.

Thanks in advance.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

I would call a judge, and I'm 100% sure the judge will rule that OL does not prevent action it just prevent modification.

 

OL's ability doesn't stop you from taking a focus action but it should stop you from spending the token to modify zero results. Modifying zero results is still modifying results. If you can't modify results you can't spend the token.

 

 

If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

OL states you cannot modify any dice when locked. So you are explicitly prevented from modifying dice. Any ability that contains an optional dice modification (AC) can be triggered but the modification part is prevented. Any ability that has a mandatory dice modification (Zuckuss) is completely prevented from being triggered,

 

 

When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack dice. Additionally, players may spend a focus token even if they do not roll any Focus results. When defending, players may spend focus tokens even if they do not roll any Focus results and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results.

Dice can be modified in the following ways:

• Add: To add a die result, place an unused die displaying the result next to the rolled dice. A die added in this way is treated as a normal die for all purposes and can be modified and canceled.

• Change: To change a die result, rotate the die so that its faceup side displays the new result.

• Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again.

Spending tokens during combat does not in and off itself constitute modifying dice. You are allowed to spend a TL and choose 0 dice, in which case no dice modification takes place. You are prevented from spending a Focus token if you have rolled any Focus results as these modifications are mandatory. But the FAQ clearly states that you can spend a Focus token if you rolled 0 Focus results, and OL can't prevent that because no dice are modified.

 

 

 

When you choose to modify zero dice you are still performing dice modification. You are modifying zero dice. OL's ability prevents you from modifying any quantity of dice, even zero. You are only given the opportunity to spend those tokens to modify dice. If you are unable to modify dice you shouldn't be able to spend tokens.

 

It would be really nice if FFG would update the FAQ or at least start answering rules questions again. I've just submitted this question:

 

"If Garven Dries is target locked by Omega Leader, can Garven spend a focus token while attacking Omega Leader even though Omega Leader's ability prevents him from modifying dice in order to activate his ability and pass the focus token to a friendly ship?"

 

[Mozic 174]

In regards specifically to your question that you emailed, it's understood that you can do these things. Spending any token and resolving the effects of spending any token are two separate steps, and Omega Leader does not prevent the spending of tokens (like 4LOM crew does), just resolving the effects of those spent tokens.

 

I thought I was delivering fun facts and instead I have delivered destruction. I am a bad.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Mozic

[WWHSD 9,273]

In regards specifically to your question that you emailed, it's understood that you can do these things. Spending any token and resolving the effects of spending any token are two separate steps, and Omega Leader does not prevent the spending of tokens (like 4LOM crew does), just resolving the effects of those spent tokens.

 

I thought I was delivering fun facts and instead I have delivered destruction. I am a bad.

 

How is that understood? What precedents support that interpretation? The only thing that seems to come close are the rules explanations that permit you to spend tokens to modify zero results.

My understanding of the rules is that you are allowed to spend those tokens to perform a modification. The modification is a mandatory effect of spending the token. In the case of a Target Lock you may choose to modify zero dice but you are still forced to choose a number of dice to reroll.

The rules for spending these tokens don't state "If the attacker/defender spends this type token you may modify dice in this manner" they state "The attacker/defender may spend this type of token to modify in this manner". 

 

[muribundi 406]

In regards specifically to your question that you emailed, it's understood that you can do these things. Spending any token and resolving the effects of spending any token are two separate steps, and Omega Leader does not prevent the spending of tokens (like 4LOM crew does), just resolving the effects of those spent tokens.

 

I thought I was delivering fun facts and instead I have delivered destruction. I am a bad.

But StephenEsven and WWHSD say that yes, OL prevent you from spending token. So it seems this is not understood at all.

We say there is no rule precedent that say that, and they say that yes the rules say you can't spend something if the effect could not happen.

They say that because the effect of like a Focus Token is mandatory, then you would have to modify your dice, so you have to go higher and prevent the spend of the Focus.

And the rule that they linked even give us reason, when a cannot happen, it can't be overwritten, so the mandatory effect of Focus can't overwrite the cannot modify, so you can spend, because you contradict nothing.

Edited June 28, 2016 by muribundi