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The Road to Nationals - Thoughts from the Final Match...

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Hey all,

 

NOTE: I apologize if this writing seems scatter-brained... I'll edit to fix where needed if wanted.

 

Just drove back to DC (6 hrs) from Columbus, OH... took a short nap, so here goes...

 

ORIGINS - Columbus is a nice town; Origins is about 1/3 size of GenCon (more chill and elbow space; less background white noise from crowds in the gaming hall so I found myself being able to hear my stress during my matches).  I made the decision to go to Origins and a potential trip to Worlds over going to GenCon (costwise).

 

My post will probably make comparisons to X-Wing and Imperial Assault so I'll give dap to players of both these games because I don't know how you guys battle through numerous one-hour rounds where I'm assuming one small mistake will lead to a loss!  Seems uber-stressful to me!

 

This is gonna be a stream of consciousness thread so I'll break into parts so you can skip pieces that you aren't interested in...

 

-----------------  Of the FFG SW Trilogy, ARMADA is the People's Game  ------------------------------------

 

Armada is the People's Game because any list can win; moreso, than my previous GenCon thoughts... 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/183984-gencon-2015-thoughts-from-the-top-table/

 

I'm confident the list below can beaten by you so let's not go into a flame war!  Heck, during the Massing of Sullust, the GenCon Special got crushed by Rhymer + 9 Bombers (who plays that?) and then I got crushed a 2nd time trying out the list that crushed me!

 

Jonathan R. (2015 Worlds Champion) talked about running the anti-meta and I agree with him.

Clone took Vassal by storm by proving that Raiders don't suck.

There's a thread on a 50-pt initiative bid!  Inconceivable!

 

However, I'll state that, much like poker or MtG, good cards make it easier to win but having bad cards doesn't necessarily mean you will lose... in either case, you can still have FUN... 

 

Specifically, Armada is the People's Game because...

 

1. Scoring is akin to college football before the BCS, you gotta score to impress the polls!  You may have scored big but someone just scored bigger!  Matchups matters!  

2. If you have a loss in Week/Round 1, you can still comeback... at Nationals, Stephen was 1-9, then he went 10-0 and 10-0 and finished 3rd!

3. I don't think I've ever played against the same exact list in the competitive scene.

4. Any list can win on any given day... that's why I treat every match like a playoff elimination game.  By trying to win big, you may lose big... it's the nature of the beast.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here was my winning list (I think the why is cooler than read than the how)...

 

Move Like a Butterfly.... Sting Like a Bee...

 

Corvette A - TRC, Jaina's Light + Mon Mothma

(GenCon Special 23 Hull, Motti ISD 14; my fleet 16!) 

Corvette A - TRC

Corvette A - TRC

(TRC is glass cannon DPS).

Mc30 Torpedo - APT, Ordnance Experts, Lando, Admonition

      (Haha... I like the phrase Mothmation... gotta make them pay for letting you go first.  Also, designed to help tank Demo hits.)

8x YT-2400

(Gotta win the GAME WITHIN THE GAME).

RED - Most Wanted

YELLOW - Contested Outpost

BLUE - Intel Sweep

 

I cut down to 4 ships because 5 seemed hard to avoid all the fire.

 

No blog or forum post has mentioned this before but I want to bring up the concept of TEMPO.  In Armada, you need to average 7 to be in the prize pool and likely around 8 to be in contention to win it all.  Toilet Bowl matches and 5-5s will really knock you out... I was teching to fight Rhymerballs, Demos, and Rieekan Aces.  TEMPO is doing things to force action.

 

Most Wanted - Since I was playing SMALL BALL, I wanted to maximize WHALING!  Designed to trade up to

          ISDs and MC80s.

      - Advanced Gunnery (NO) - it would have to go on my Shrimp and the Shrimp was my damage dealer so              this would be too risky given how fragile it is.  Also, why would I want an MC80 to get this?

      - Opening Salvo (NO) - this is dangerous and can backfire since i have a swarm.  Learned this from the                  GGGGGR list.

      - Precision Strike (NO) - Rieekan Aces and Rhymerballs probably have this... if they make me go 2nd, gotta         make pick something they aren't ready for!

Contested Outpost - Gotta put pressure on carrier builds to move somewhere!  Forces TEMPO.

       - Hyperspace Assault (NO) - doesn't pressure carrier builds.  They go first so they can bomb your        

          hyperspaced stuff.

       - Fire Lanes (NO) - risky... you gotta know you can win this.  However, even if you lose, MOV will be high

          (hopefully)

       - Fleet Ambush (NO) - they go first... what if they are using Ackbar with Gunnery Team... they shoot and

         scoot.

Intel Sweep - hey, that's 75 points (7-3) tempo... forces carrier build to move to you.  Force TEMPO.

        - Superior Positions (NO) - why help carrier builds?

        - Dangerous Territory (NO) - why go small tempo when you can get bigger with Intel Sweep?

        - Minefields (NO) - kills TEMPO and will likely lead to a draw.

 

----------------------------- Nationals AAR ---------------------------------------------------

(#1 Swiss; 23/30; 7.7 Avg)

 

Met Biggs in real life in WV Regional.  Hung out with him and his crew at Origins afterwards - they are super funny!  We didn't know how many peeps were in the tourney.  Since Biggs wasn't sure if he could make GenCon, he used his Bye.  I agreed with the reasoning.  Additionally, I used my Bye so no one would get a free ride in Round 1.

 

Met McCann in real life... from the forums, I knew he is a strong player... he's really cool too!

 

After Round 1 (8)... but there was 10, 10, 9, 9... Biggs and I had to hope that the Top 4 destroyed each other.

 

Round 2 vs Biggs (10)

Ugh... was hoping to meet in Round 3... Biggs played Aggro Rieekan... I think I surprised him by going 2nd. There were 3 times where I felt his dice rolled below average.

 

Looks like there was one or two Intentional Draws?  Not sure... after two, it was me at 18, Jeff 15 and a slew at 14 and 13.

 

MVP was the Mothmition... it tanked so many hits before dying!

 

Round 3 vs Jeff (5)

 

Jeff chose to go 2nd.  I looked at his (super tanky 2x MC80, Han, Dash) build.  I think he had Gunnery and Fire Lanes so I had no choice to pick Minefields (he clustered the center).  He had X17s.  My YTs chased and killed Han.  If he let me go 2nd, it would have been worse for him... was hoping that 23 would be enough to make top two for the cut.

 

Finals vs Troy

 

Troy's Rhymerball had a lot of AS tech!  Bigg's play-by-play is just a fun read.

 

Mothmition tanked 3 APT Demo hits... well, dodged them... it was insane!

 

-----------------------  DEMO & RHYMER --------------------------------------------------

 

Why they are good for the game.  I agree that the Imps don't have better tools yet.

 

Demolisher - if it doesn't exist, let's imagine how games would go.  Imps rush Ackbar Gunlines and take massive damage.  The Demolisher lets the Imperials break the siege, catch running Corvettes, and disrupts formations.  In the current meta, the Imps can't win a long-range firefight with the Rebels.  Demolisher helps close the distance.  Demolisher adds TEMPO!

        - block with Rieekan ship

        - bombers

        - bait with another ship

        - Tractor beams

        - out-activate

        - go first

 

Rhymer - if he doesn't exist, Imp squadrons will take more AS flak, you won't be able to break an Ackbar Gunline, you can't reach fleeing Corvettes...

        - Cluster bombs?

        - perhaps, forget about Rhymer and add a FireSpray or Aggressor?

        

It's hard for the Imps to include both and do well with both of these in them.  Rebels just have more flexibility in builds right now.

 

------------------------- STORE CHAMPIONSHIPS ---------------------------------------

 

1. Ackbar with Home One w/Engine Techs, 2x Guppy, 3x YT-2400   (8th Place)

 

a) Paul Heaver's Rebel Ackbar... toilet bowl match.  He had a YT-swarm.

 

At this time Ackbar Gunlines were OP'd and I wanted to see for myself the big fuss...

ACKBAR IS BAD FOR THE GAME!  Ackbar is a forgiving commander... new players will be competitive with a low learning curve (this is good to get peeps into the game); however, traditional Ackbar Gunlines are board control/counter-attack lists.  If you walk into the kill zone, you will get thrashed.  However, Ackbar has difficulty advancing the gunline to apply pressure (TEMPO)... I tried to use Engine Techs to bisect the toilet bowl to force action but I faltered when wanting to put a 150pt+ ship on the frontlines... so "toilet bowls" will happen (a valid tactic due to matchups)... but I think people will agree that's it not very interesting!  Given mistake-free play on both sides, it's hard to win big with Ackbar Gunlines but it's hard to lose big.

 

b) WWPDSteven's TRC Swarm... 

 

TRC Swarm... wow... they can box a Motti ISD in 2 turns!

 

"WHALING" - since everyone was playing the big MC80s and ISDs, could you win by trading up in the exchange of small ships for big ships?  This was the beginning of my "Small Ball" concept (in NBA terms)...

 

c) Tyler S. Imp Air Superiority build.

 

Losing my 3 YT-2400, I was already down 48 pts... 

 

"GAME WITHIN THE GAME" - Can you win big enough by just destroying squadrons?

 

2.  TRC with Jaina's Light, Mon Mothma            (1st)

     3 x TRC

     MC30 Torpedo, APT, Ordnance Experts

     5 x YT

 

a) Treb C's Ackbar Carrier Build... with Minefields

 

It was very difficult to breakthru's Treb's Defenses with Minefields, it's hard to generate TEMPO.

 

b) Matt's Clonisher 

 

Yay, 5 Activations with TRCs with the YTs seem like a favorable matchup!

 

c) Ron's Mini-RhymerBall (Rhymer, 3 Firesprays, 5 Tie Bombers)

 

Yay, seems like a favorable matchup!

 

3.  Rhymer + 10 Tie Bombers + Dengar and Flight Controllers     (1st)

 

I wanted to see if a RhymerBall could bomb and do air-to-air.  With Flight Controllers a Tie Bomber has 38% chance of doing 2 damage to a squadron.  I against a hodge-podge of lists but I remember beating 4x Tie/Int and 4x A-Wings...

 

4.  GGGGRR + Ozzel                   (3rd)

 

I wanted to see if Small Ball would work.  Didn't face any squadron heavy lists but I took a lot of damage but eeked out wins 6-6-7?  In a one-off match, I liked my odds but I couldn't win big enough.

 

--------------------------------  REGIONALS -----------------------------------------------------

 

Michael McWilliams (he's awesome) - Your Hobby Place - Martinsburg, WV

 

TRC with Jaina's Light, Mon Mothma              (5th; 28/40; 7.0 avg)

     3 x TRC

     MC30 Torpedo, APT, Ordnance Experts

     5 x YT

 

a) Bye (8)

b) fought non-Rieekan Rebel Aces  (9)... gained experience fighting Luke, Wedge and Dutch (no Yavaris)

c) Heaver - intense toilet bowl  (5)

 

It was YT on YT but Paul had Dash + 2 more YT... I actually had to use squadron commands on Corvettes to attack first!

 

d) Jonathan K's.... 2x ISD-2 with Advanced Gunnery, 3x Firespray, 3x Aggressor  (6)

 

I went first... I took out the ISD but the squadron battle was pretty even.  Maybe 5 ships was too many and Advanced Gunnery would knock out 2 TRCs?  Need better squadron help.

 

 

Game Theory - Raleigh, NC                         (2nd; 23/30; 7.7 Avg)

 

TRC with Jaina's Light, Dodonna

MC30 Scout, APT, Ordnance Experts

6x YT

Nym, H-6

Yavaris

 

a) battled Gallant Haven, Jan Ors, a mix of Rebel Squadrons  (9)

b) Darryl's 7Ys, Hwk, 3A's, Dutch   (5)

c) Rieekan, 3x Shrimp, Guppy  (9)

 

In this match, I was really worried about getting tabled!

 

I'd never used Yavaris (a squadron multiplier + 2 blue AS).  Yavaris always died.  I wondered if bombers were good for board control.

 

I met PT106... good guy... he won 2 Regionals WITHOUT Demo or Rhymer.

Edited by IceQube
NebulonB, Typo, shmitty and 9 others like this

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Ackbar Gunlines... lead to prevalence of RhymerBalls and Clonishers.... Rieekan Aces are strong vs RhymerBalls and Clonishers... so maybe Air Superiority Builds will win out in the future due to prevalence of squadrons?

 

Also, if you are running a turtle list... try to help TEMPO by giving your opponent something that they can kill to encourage engagement if that makes sense?  Like a token corvette/raider?

Edited by IceQube
Typo likes this

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Congrats Q and although I havent played you I have seen you play enough games and talked to you enough to know that you deserve your win.  But let me comment on this section of your post.

 

-----------------------  DEMO & RHYMER --------------------------------------------------

 

Why they are good for the game.  I agree that the Imps don't have better tools yet.

 

Demolisher - if it doesn't exist, let's imagine how games would go.  Imps rush Ackbar Gunlines and take massive damage.  The Demolisher lets the Imperials break the siege, catch running Corvettes, and disrupts formations.  In the current meta, the Imps can't win a long-range firefight with the Rebels.  Demolisher helps close the distance.  Demolisher adds TEMPO!

        - block with Rieekan ship

        - bombers

        - bait with another ship

        - Tractor beams

        - out-activate

        - go first

 

Rhymer - if he doesn't exist, Imp squadrons will take more AS flak, you won't be able to break an Ackbar Gunline, you can't reach fleeing Corvettes...

        - Cluster bombs?

        

It's hard for the Imps to include both and do well with both of these in them.  Rebels just have more flexibility in builds right now."

 

I am an avid Rebel player and only recently started playing Imps and amid all the debate about the Demo/Rhymer balance I have to stay its good to see regional and national champions winning without them.  I have played enough games against Demo/Rhymer that I know how to beat them or at least mitigate their effectiveness.  That being said I have difficult time building what I feel are competitive Imperial lists without an element of them in it.  Right now the problem isnt Demo or Rhymer it is the fact that Imps have very few options compared to the rebels for competitive fleets. So it may look like the Demo/Rhymer are all over the championship circuit because they are OP but the real reason is lack of options.  As Q states "Rebels just have more flexibility in builds right now."  This not only gives them more options but makes them harder to predict.  The imperials as a whole are very predictable in most of their builds. Thematically I love this but for competition it sucks.

 

I think what the games needs right now is not to nerf anything but give the imperials more viable competitive options.

Edited by Overdawg

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Well said, Overdawg... *SUPERLIKE*

 

For imps, you see mostly ISDs and Glads... the Rebels have 5 ships to choose from!

 

Raiders don't really inspire fear... other things do the heavy lifting.

Edited by IceQube

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Really good post!  I appreciate reading it.  Congrats again on your huge win.  We should all be encouraged by the path that you've taken to nationals.  You won some key store championships and you placed well in a couple of regionals.

 

The content of the post is superb, and I've got a lot of thoughts to match, so I'll add some to the discussion.

 

 

Armada as the people's game because any list can win on any given day.

 

I agree with the sentiment that any list can win on any given day.  Player skill matters a great deal in this game. The very best players experiment with all of the ideas.  They don't get obsessed with playing a single concept or idea.  They are adaptable.
 
 

 

"I cut down to 4 ships because 5 seemed too hard to avoid all the fire."

 

I've also discovered this in my games. In bigger lists, it just isn't always possible to get all of your ships out of the danger area.  We talk about activation advantage.  DeMSU really brought it into the open.  The problem is that it is not always an advantage.  Sometimes, it is just negligible.  The overall quality of your activations matter considerably.  So certainly if you can open with one or two cheap inconsequential activations to force your opponent to start moving ships toward you, that can be a great use of activation advantage.  Yet, you also want every activation to contribute.  The whole notion of a Commander's pleasure yacht leaves one ship entirely out of the fight where it cannot contribute offensively.   So here's the key concept I'd add:  Activation quality.   What you want to do is balance the quality and quantity of your activations and to position activations so that they occur in the best moments.
 
 
 
Mothmontion

I spent some time mathing out Admonition with Lando/MM against Demo a while back.  I don't think you ever really want to take a triple tap, but it can take a double tap and still be standing strong.  What happened in the final game was pretty impressive.  While we're at it, another random thought here:  Redundant Shields.  That MC30 is exactly the ship where this little utilized upgrade can really shine.  It wants to get down, dirty, and will take hits.  In the game itself, the Admonition perished at the end, but the three shields it would have regenerated before its demise represent the difference between living and dying.  In the final game, this was of little consequence, but I'd be very curious if other games might result in close calls.  When that upgrade starts representing 70-80 points in a close scoring game, its certainly worth looking it.

 

 
TEMPO

 

 

The concept is critical.  The name is a bit off.  Tempo comes from the Latin word meaning time.  My guess is that you're importing the term from sports where a team is playing a "faster" game than the opponent and thereby applying pressure on them.  I play chess where the concept of a "forced move" is critical to being able to calculate the variations at all.  No one has the mental energy to calculate every variation, so some combination of good strategic judgment and a way to limit calculations is essential.   The OP is a superb walk through the use of the objectives to counter the prevailing meta.  This is a lot of why I run Intel Sweep in many of my builds.  One of my 10-0 regional wins came on this objective.  The Rhymerball ran into a trap where none of the objectives were good for it, so he picked Intel Sweep and just conceded the 75 points.  I would not have thought to use Contested Outpost in this way.  There's definitely the worry that some really big ISDs are going to come barrelling in and sweep up tokens.

 

 

I also like that Cluster Bombs are mentioned here seriously.  I caught flak about 6 weeks ago for suggesting they might have merit.  This is a champ looking at cards and saying, "How do I make this work?"

 

Demolisher and Rhymer

 

Really good points on why they are necessary.  I've tried building on the Imperial side and it is tough to find concepts I like.  I don't think Flotillas are going to prove to be the answer for more diversity.  They're going to augment the games for both sides, padding activations for Demo and boosting the bomber dice from Rhymer.  I don't think they're going to open up more diversity in the ISDs the way we'd like.  What could do this is the Interdictor.  If it can open a third path, that will be extremely helpful to the development of the game.

 

On Ackbar's abiltiy to generate Pressure (Tempo)

 

 

I discovered this pretty early.  Ackbar didn't suit me.  Ginkapo's accidental 50 point bid and use of MC30s with Ackbar does generate a lot of pressure though.

 

 

Game Within a Game:  Can you win big enough just by destroying squadrons?

 

70 points or more for a 7-3, 130 points or more for an 8-2.  But then it is quite a bit more for a 9-1 and a 10-0 above that.  You're going to take some losses, but good squadron design can definitely tilt it largely in your favor.  I think there's also the open question of how to use our ships much more effectively.  In this respect, the much maligned MKII-A probably has a role to play.  You can't always predict what amount of squadrons the opponent will bring, but if you can punish your opponent effectively for losing the squadron game, it can greatly tilt the ship battle.  The MKII titles are probably better suited for down and dirty work close to the enemy with squadrons.  

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Yeah, TEMPO might not be the best wording... I was using it from a card playing sense... you play a card that forces your opponent to respond and so on... maybe the IFF guys can come up with a better term?

 

Some of my favorite matches ended up 5-5 but there was an element of cat n mouse... instead of pure toilet bowling...

 

All in all, maybe the point of games isn't fun but rather it's ENGAGING.  It keeps our attention.  Fun can be grouped into winning or seeing a different fleet and trying to solve the puzzle.

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You are absolutely right on Rhymer and Demolisher being a product of shortcomings as opposed to strength.  Without these two cards, Rebels have a lot more tournament options in their lists whether they want to play primarily ships or squadrons.

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On Ackbar's abiltiy to generate Pressure (Tempo)

 

I discovered this pretty early.  Ackbar didn't suit me.  Ginkapo's accidental 50 point bid and use of MC30s with Ackbar does generate a lot of pressure though.

Its all about tempo. The list doesnt need objectives for tempo. Three mc30s can go last/first in three subsequent rounds. They adore advanced gunnery.

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Can you win with just killing squadrons? Maybe. 

 

You have to win big enough to make up for your losses. This is why I actually run the same objective scheme or close to it. If I have to go second, I need to make up for my losses while not giving too much away. 

 

Wave 3 with change this. Trading up will still be important but when they have 2-4 weak activations (flotillas) and 1-2 strong activations, you will have to figure out where you are going go and what you will need to take out while maintaining the lead. 

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Can you win with just killing squadrons? Maybe. 

There is only one simple way to do it at the moment, but it is possible. Rieekan wedge lets you win a squadron battle without taking heavy losses yourself.

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Can you win with just killing squadrons? Maybe. 

There is only one simple way to do it at the moment, but it is possible. Rieekan wedge lets you win a squadron battle without taking heavy losses yourself.

 

It does. So does a well played Mithel and Dengar combo but that is far more difficult to pull off and won't help you win non squadron heavy match ups. 

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I'm thinking to alluding to American football is probably the right way to define tempo. While there isn't really a clock in rounds of Armada, some teams like to play fast or slow to limit the opponents opportunity to respond. Be it on trying to wind the defense or only provide a short amount of time for a comeback drive. It's probably why running the football is still around in what the NFL wants as a high scoring passing league.

I guess I never thought of the game in those terms, but it makes sense. If you can dictate the engagement terms, you really can force the opponent into specific and usually sub optimal choices.

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Thanks for the report. Great insight!

I ran a version of this today and didn't do well. Familiarity over time will help of course. I had to change up the squads as I only have 4 YT2400s, so I put in three As and Han and that left me with 10 pts. I tokened up the TRC90s and had them fire and forget the As for pinning purposes.

One question is about Contested Outpost, which I've never played. I purposely went second to test the objectives. My opponent laughed when he saw it (CO) and he let me swap for something else (Hyperspace Assault), but I think he ended up grabbing Intel Sweep. Not sure if I fell for a trick or not, but I've never seen Rebels use CO, so I skittered back to one I 'knew'.

Can you explain the choice? I get making someone move, but I don't see how this fleet does anything other than hand points to the opponent. Today for example, I was facing 3 Glads, all with Engine Techs and Demo, of course. He would have been on my fleet in one turn and collecting points quickly. What am I missing?

Edited by RogueCommander

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Very interesting 4 ships vs 5 ships.  How did you feel about vs Clonisher? Especially if they were also first? 

(I really like YT24s also.  Used them to good effect to hamper Demo's entrance in.) 

Edited by Blail Blerg

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Thanks for the report. Great insight!

I ran a version of this today and didn't do well. Familiarity over time will help of course. I had to change up the squads as I only have 4 YT2400s, so I put in three As and Han and that left me with 10 pts. I tokened up the TRC90s and had them fire and forget the As for pinning purposes.

One question is about Contested Outpost, which I've never played. I purposely went second to test the objectives. My opponent laughed when he saw it (CO) and he let me swap for something else (Hyperspace Assault), but I think he ended up grabbing Intel Sweep. Not sure if I fell for a trick or not, but I've never seen Rebels use CO, so I skittered back to one I 'knew'.

Can you explain the choice? I get making someone move, but I don't see how this fleet does anything other than hand points to the opponent. Today for example, I was facing 3 Glads, all with Engine Techs and Demo, of course. He would have been on my fleet in one turn and collecting points quickly. What am I missing?

 

You should have kept the Outpost.

Rebels like Outpost by playing "against" the objective and using it to force enemy ships into their preferred position.  Especially with 8 YT-2400s, they'll come in like a hammer with the objective being the anvil and quickly take down the enemy ships.  Who cares if they get 15 points a turn, you're taking down 70-90 point ships in return.

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You should have kept the Outpost.

Rebels like Outpost by playing "against" the objective and using it to force enemy ships into their preferred position. Especially with 8 YT-2400s, they'll come in like a hammer with the objective being the anvil and quickly take down the enemy ships. Who cares if they get 15 points a turn, you're taking down 70-90 point ships in return.

I just don't see it. Just speculating here, I understand the idea, but it's not like (in this example) those Glads were running unsupported. The other player has a nice dedicated AS shredder that's going to tie up squads. They're out of the fight for at least 2 rounds. So that leaves 2 CR90s and Monmonition against 3 big burst damage baddies (assuming you are protecting Mothma). Lead and block with CR90s, then swooping in with Admo? Seems like draw territory.

A new untested fleet for me, a commander I use infrequently at best, an objective I was unsure of and an opponent who seems to have a knack for allowing me the room to second guess myself are all probably connected to my poor showing today. I'll give it another shot though and see if I can make it work with some practice.

I also have got to figure out deployment/objective/fleet synergy better.

Edited by RogueCommander

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Btw. Why Admonition over Foresight?  Foresight seems better with Mothma.

Admo does just fine at range with Mothma and is better at mitigating damage at close range.

I think.

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I can help a bit.

 

First, I applaud your courage in testing a list that you're unfamiliar with.  We need more guts and gumption like that in all aspects of this world.

 

Second, don't second guess yourself.  Accept that you'll make mistakes and learn from them.

 

 

Let's talk about the list first.  The YT2400 are one of the most potent anti-squadron units in the game.  If he had a good squadron force, then you probably were correct just to engage the squadron force and aim to take points from him there.  You honestly should be winning that exchange.  The 8 YT2400 average 6 ship damage per turn, so if an attack of opportunity arises, you go ahead and take.  Beyond that, the only ship you need camping the CO is Admonition.  Your goal is not to win by claiming points, your goal is to force him into action.  If he clumps on the objective, Admonition has an easier time firing from both its big arcs.  It can afford to take some hits, and if you can trade it for 2 Glads, that's an ideal situation.  You want the Corvettes spread out in support of Admonition, but not necessarily on the CO.  You want to force the hard choice of either allowing the Corvettes to chew you to death or to allow points on the CO.  The Corvettes at a minimum should be doing 4 damage each per turn, and if maneuvered well, 7 each is not out of the question.  If he's going to get in close anyway where MM's evade bonus matters less, then you should definitely not hestitate about using her Corvette aggressively.  If you don't, you're taking 4-7 damage off the table, and that's exactly the damage you need to push your attack over the top.

 

 

If you're going to fly a list with this little hull, it will take practice.  MC30s are a tough ship to fly well.

 

I do have a proposal for you.  I also enjoyed the list and came up with my own version of it.  Like you, I'm going to buy 4 more Rogues and Villains.  I also think that paying for 8x YT2400 is a pretty expensive gambit.  I know he was going for that 8 placement at the start of game as at least part of the thinking, but these units just aren't cheap and the anti-ship damage for that many points in squadrons is pretty low.  I also am skeptical of running that little hull AND putting MM on a light craft.  So my solution was to replace the entire squadron ring and to upgrade a Corvette to an AFMKII-B with Flight Controllers, Expanded Hanger Bay, Raymus.  I also went Advanced Projectors with the idea that if the AFMKII-B does get Demolisher triple-tapped, its got the full use of its shields and should easily survive the triple tap.  In retrospect, I think ECM is still the better fit.   From there, I went Jan, X-wing, and 4x A-wings.  7 Placement is still what you'll see out of a lot of fleets.  With Flight Controllers, there are still a pretty hefty number of anti-squadron dice.  There's not that much reduction in anti-ship armament, which wasn't there in the first place.   I think I had a few points left over in which I experimented with Redundant Shields before settling on an H9 on the Mothmontion.  The H9 guarantees an accuracy when you need it, or two if you roll one naturally and need two, which does mean something for locking a Gladiator's brace and ensuring your Mothmontion pushes through damage.  There's a bit more command for you on the contested outpost if you're worried about it, and in my experience there are usually other threats for the opponent to shoot at before the AFMKII-B, and I wasn't losing it on any consistent basis.  Since the squadrons are activating from a ship, there's no efficiency loss and you're not having to deal with paying extra points from Rogue.  And provided the squadrons actually do damage, it really doesn't matter much whether it happens earlier or later in the round.  In fact, hitting with a hard alpha before the activate might even help more in the anti-squadron game.   If you think you'll win the squadron game quickly, the objectives and squadron force can probably take care of itself without the need for an activation every round, which means a Raymused CF dial can really pump up your AFMKII-B's damage, and a couple of timely engineering commands later in the game can save your ship.  In my opinion, this list is a bit more forgiving of mistakes and plays with a lot of the same chemistry that the original list plays without having the need to buy tons of Rogues and Villains packs.  So maybe play around with that idea and see how you like it.

 

 

And yes, you're right, Admonition is much better at long term damage mitigation.  Foresight is definitely really good in an MM list.  It just doesn't fit in this list without majorly compromising the points elsewhere for something this list needs.  A possible MM list with both Foresight and Admonition is probably to go in the direction of a speed/activation list with a clear bid for first player.  You end up either cutting an activation, cutting squadrons, or cutting pretty important upgrades on your MC30s to fit them both in.

 

Corvette-Bs with SW-7 have considerable merit in an MM list.  Your not giving up an Evade to fuel TRC, and although you have to get a bit closer, with intelligent positioning away from powerful arcs, MM's evade bonus can help it live as long as it needs to live.  First player can also help it.  And adding engine techs might help it set up its positioning and then escape unharmed.  I'd have to experiment with it since I'm used to playing these in Rieekan lists.  Food for thought.

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@RogueCommander 

 

1 - Armada is the People's Game.  Experiment with what you think will work and play it better than anyone else.

2 - As for this type of this, it takes an enormous amount of guts to play.  With 16 Hull, you can get tabled and lose big pretty easily.  Don't get discouraged!  I lose A LOT!  (Haha... I like going to the big events as the underdog... like being a dark horse/under the radar).

 

Why Contested Outpost:

1 - I wanted to prevent "turtle" lists and I want interaction.  IMO - Hyperspace Assault does not apply enough pressure.

2 - If you look at my fleet, I have a total of 5 Command.  Yup, an ISD or MC80 has 3 and will easily take the Outpost.  However, my fleet is designed to not get hit.  Knowing where they will aim their monstrous front arcs is, as GI Joe, say "half the battle."

3 - In your specific example, if three Glads converge on the Outpost, it's hard for them to turn around and my TRCorvettes will be getting free shots without much retaliation.  Think of the Outpost as BAIT.

 

@Blail

 

1 - At a Store Championship, I faced the Clonisher (my opponent wins a lot in this area so he's no slouch) with my 4TRCs, Mothmition, 5YT build.  The long range of the TRCs and YTs did a lot of work... I won 10-0 and I was happy to trade a TRC for a Demolisher.

 

2 - Why Admonition vs Foresight

With Admonition, you can always discard a Defense Token so it is impervious to any tech your opponent has.  In most cases, discarding a token will be for a 2 damage effect (Black - Hit/Crit; Red - Double Hit)... it's effectively a "Brace."  (on 5 or 4 damage)

pt106 likes this

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I feel Foresight is only good with Mon Mothma, but Admonition is always better with any commander.  The key to keeping MC30s alive is to make sure you don't get caught in an arc with more than four dice, unless you have Lando, of course.

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thanks for the feedback, all!

I've put together a couple of variants and will continue to tweak and test. If nothing else, I think I've put my game on 'Hard' mode with these objectives. Lol

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