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ficklegreendice

the curious sad case of the T-70

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honestly, after sunday having t-70s fail to kill a 1 hull ghost in two different games despite TA, I have limited faith in 3 dice too

 

of course, both times the unmodified ghost shot back and either killed or slapped the t-70 with a damaged cockpit

 

What ever happened to PEMN?

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Never overestimate 2 dice attacks....

I've played enough A-Wings to see how undependable they are.

 

Man, I am impressed with your dice throwing ability; you need to tell me your secret...I needs it!

 

honestly, after sunday having t-70s fail to kill a 1 hull ghost in two different games despite TA, I have limited faith in 3 dice too; of course, both times the unmodified ghost shot back and either killed or slapped the t-70 with a damaged cockpit

That example seems to be more what I'm used to more often times than not. I don't really have a list problem, nor a spacial relations problem, nor a being out of position problem; I have a dice throwing problem. Is there a support group on here for those of us strong enough to admit it??

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Well, problem #1, you used IA over Autothrusters. I mean, it's even in your name, fickle. 

 

tried it before

 

it's very eh, basically amounting to the same as integrated anyway

 

esp when my playstyle with red vets is too aggressive to be triggering thrusters all the time. They just seem far more useful on higher pilot skill

 

 

more importantly, IA is 0 points which means two seismics on miranda :D

 

 

 

I'm dubious of Autothrusters on T-70s. Have had plenty of games (especially against TLTs) where Autothrusters stopped 0 damage. The guaranteed extra point of health and being able to discard a nasty crit seems better.

I do like running my Red Vets with Predator and R2s, I feel those upgrades let you take advantage of the red maneuvers and free your action up to boost a bit more. That brings them in at 30 points each though. 

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I think T70s are better in groups.  1v1, they lose the maneuver battle vs an ace, but with more ships, one (and it doesn't matter which) can be a blocker, while the others shoot their not inconsequential primaries.  They key is keeping them relatively cheap so they stay fairly tough for the points.  I do love those Talon Rolls, too.  Instead of 2 Seismics, is a Connor Net an option?

 

I find that the T-Roll is surprisingly hard to to arc dodge in a lot of situations, once you start taking into consideration obstacles and other ships that limit an arc dodger's likely moves. 

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I think T70s are better in groups.  1v1, they lose the maneuver battle vs an ace, but with more ships, one (and it doesn't matter which) can be a blocker, while the others shoot their not inconsequential primaries.  They key is keeping them relatively cheap so they stay fairly tough for the points.  I do love those Talon Rolls, too.  Instead of 2 Seismics, is a Connor Net an option?

 

I find that the T-Roll is surprisingly hard to to arc dodge in a lot of situations, once you start taking into consideration obstacles and other ships that limit an arc dodger's likely moves. 

 

 

main reason I still play t-70s, outside the looks, is how the choice of 3 (!) red moves interact with obstacles

 

it's probably why I love it and the FO so much, despite how hard they've failed me before <_<

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Calling a T-70 worthless assumes two things that I don't believe to be true:

First is that an improved maneuver dial isn't worth much. That's like saying a Queen and Pawn in chess are of equal value because positioning isn't that important.

Second, punching through any ship with 3 defense dice (or even 2 really) rolling 2 attack is tough, especially if they can throw on an evade. Going against an Imp Ace, two dice aren't even a credible threat. If you don't believe me, you've never chased an Aggressor or Soontir around the board with TIE fighters never getting a single damage through.

 

And I honestly love it when my opponent throws in an unmodified Z-95 or two to fill out a list. Just so easy to kill since they have no evade action. The only good Rebel Z-95 pilot skill is Blount because he can neutralize a Stealth Device on a ship just by firing at them. He's a great counter to Soontir with AT and SD build. But otherwise, use those point to beef up other ships instead of rolling more, yet weaker, ships onto the board.

Now if you're Scum, Z-95s become amazing vehicles for shenanigans like Feedback Arrays. Unblockable damage is best damage.

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Could the T-70 be suffering from the power creep that exists in x-wing? It seems that the power level of the jumpmasters with their uber efficient damage from ordnance has slightly tipped the scales towards damage output lists vs arc dodging lists. Look at how efficient the top tier scum lists and imperial aces/pal aces lists are right now. You are getting a lot of bang for your buck. Thats what i mean about power creep. when you look at what rebels can get for 25-35pts compared to what imperials and scum can get it is obvious to me that rebel squads using the T-70 just cant compete right now because the T-70 is a little (or a lot depending on you point of view) overcosted for what you get in terms of raw firepower, defense, potential action economy and jousting ability. That T-roll is amazing but imo it isnt quite enough to propel the T-70 into the must-play category. A-Wings with AT and or crackshot, Y-Wings with stressbot/TLT and even multiple headhunters are simply more efficient for the same cost. Rebel players have loads of competitive options  (VCX-100 and Dash to the rescue) but sadly few of them seem to include the T-70 right now.

Edited by The_Brown_Bomber

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I find the T-70 has the same problem as the T-65 in that I could just take a B-Wing instead.

 

I've been desperately trying to make Red Squadron Vets work, but they melt too quickly under fire. The B-Wing has the health to weather a lot of fire, whereas the A-Wing has the agility and (hopefully) modifiers to do the same. 

 

At 25 points, the T-70 (w/R2 and Intergrated Astromech) has one less health than a 22 point B-Wing behind an extra point of agility. In most circumstances the T-70 is going to be more durable than the B-Wing. Throw a hull on the B-Wing so that they are the same price and I'd venture to guess that the 7 hit T-70 is more durable than the 9 hit B-Wing. To me, the B-Wing's big advantage is that is comes in at 22 points, which makes it easier to fit into a squad.

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either power creep or the exact opposite of it, considering the t-70 is somehow less jousting efficient than the t-65

It's power creep, tbh. The T-70 doesnt need to be good at jousting because it has options like boost and T-Rolls to be able to avoid a joust. There are just some ships where their jousting value just doesnt mean that much because they're not supposed to joust, and the T-70 is one of those ships. The X-Wing is bad at jousting, and even worse because it has no other choice. The T-70 at least has the option to choose not to joust.

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There are so many shenanigans in the game now that all ships need a little something to be worthwhile. Just moving and rolling dice isn't enough anymore.

I personally don't mind all the shenanigans but I would like the straight up fighters like T65's and T70's to be worth takin too.

There have been a million suggestions how to do it but you can't joust Jumpmasters or swarms and come off better, nor can you joust a competent ace as they just dance while you flail around or have all the tokens.

Something for positioning? Something to mimic the power distribution we saw briefly in the Trench run and more of in the PC games.. (sacrificing a die of one type for one of the other at the start of combat for example) hell I dont know what, but something.

Edited by kopmcginty

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I don't buy that. You could make X-wings 15 points and they'd be absolutely everywhere. There's a price point for everything. The problem is other than somewhat clunky artificial points breaks like the chardaan refit, FFG can't really fiddle the point values (no second edition!), so you're stuck with layering special rules in the hope of making it decent. 

Edited by The Inquisitor

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I don't buy that. You could make X-wings 15 points and they'd be absolutely everywhere. There's a price point for everything. The problem is other than somewhat clunky artificial points breaks like the chardaan refit, FFG can't really fiddle the point values (no second edition!), so you're stuck with layering special rules in the hope of making it decent.

Of course at the right point cost they would be good. A some point reduction would be boring and we have seen FFG don't like to repeat fixes. They have tried to keep different identities for the fixed ships. That's why I didn't bother mentioning it. It's not likely to happen IMO. Instead the X's both need an identity they currently lack. I know this is a T70 thread but while it goes for both ships, it goes even more so for the T65 for me.

Heroes of the Resistance could have already cracked this with the unspoiled cards, the perfect fix for both generations of X could already be on the way. We can always hope.

Edited by kopmcginty

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I think paul heaver and nathan eide word have to disagree....

And probably pau leheaver as well

 

no they'd agree

 

because both used only Poe

 

I dunno about that... If you listen to the latest Nova Squadron podcast, Paul has been running a list with a PS2 T-70 lately, and it sure sounds interesting. I'm going to have to try it myself, as I do love this little ship. 

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I think the T70 shouldn't really be compared to the A wing and Z95 because of their different roles. The Z95 is built perfectly to bring a missile, but after that burst damage you need to rely on your predictive skills to make it relevant by blocking. A wings are also reliant on blocking, and utilize crack shot as their burst damage. Both the Z and A are solid ships, but essentially are taken to be burst damage in the opening rounds, and then annoying blockers after that.

 

The T70 on the other hand, that is a solid, sustained combat fighter. I think you're expectations may be to blame if you find the ship lacking. I wouldn't take a disposable EPT like crack shot (even though it is an amazing card), because at that price and PS you need something that will be able to use repeatedly. Predator is what I have used the most because it helps open up the dial and actions. Lone Wolf could be interesting, but I don't think it is the right choice because a generic T70 wants his friends nearby. There aren't too many other options unless you want PtL and R2astromech, but then you miss out on those beautiful trolls and become very predictable. A defensive option could be an R5 astro and Determination, but I think predator wins because of the constant offensive output. 

 

I'm really excited for the Small Base barrel roll modification in the ARC expansion. Combine that with R2astros and PtL, T70s will be able to be 3hull 3shield interceptors, but with a 1 straight and bank instead of AT or SD. The cards in HotR also hold a lot of promise, with a new tech and Prow Thrusters? coming as well as new tech in the TIE sf, T70s are in a healthy spot.

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tried predator, it really isn't worth it. crackshot will at least push damage through, predator just flubs too much for 3 (!) points in a meta where the only ps 2 is the palp shuttle

 

 

also wouldn't be even the least bit excited for vector thrusters. these guys are barely survivable with IA, without is just handicapping yourself

 

besides, boost is just spiffy as is and bb-8 makes for a far superior PTL arc-dodging (including rebel arc-dodging, ie running into opponents to deny shots) platform

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Predator on 3 dice flubbing? Perhaps you should take a connor net or two so you're shooting at an actionless ace ;) 3 dice with Predator and focus is plenty to deal with the many threats we see in the meta these days, especially if those two red squad vets are just the 'filler' in your list. As a generic filler, the Red Squad Vet is expensive, but will hold its own against a similar point value of similar ships, like Black, Omega, or Green squadrons. It may not win every time, but you will always have a chance. Crack shot is good, but if that predator roll nets you an extra hit 3 times over the course of a battle, isn't it worth it? If they're not even lasting 3 turns I think maneuvers are a bigger problem than ship choice, but maybe that's just me.

 

I guess I just don't see what the point of your post is then... Is it to get other people's thoughts on the ship, or to have everyone agree that a PS5 generic won't beat Soontir Fel in a 1v1 matchup? The role of a ship like the T70 is to take out the filler in the enemy list, hopefully making it into the end game to put some pressure in the final rounds. 
 

I for one am eager to experiment with the new upgrades that will be available with the next few expansions. The T70 will have new pilots, and a lot of new ways to be built.

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More to find out when the ship is ever worth it.

Ideas are always welcome, but they actually have to make sense. Personal experience tells me predator red vets simply aren't worth it, neither against aces nor even the commonly used generics. Stacking them up v crack ties, for example, has not ended well

With ordnance and As doing work, it's difficult to see the appeal of the t-70 outside t-rolling and awesome models hence the thread

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I've loved the t70 ever since it came out. The sheer number of options it can do make it s truly fantastic ship. My favorite list to run is 3 t70 list with Poe and 2 reds, wired, r2, and autothrusters really offer a versatile ship when ran in a pair. Add to it a regen or new arc Dodge Poe and I've had some pretty outstanding success

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