Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Smurfinablender

Star Wars: Rebels hate?

Recommended Posts

Yes, it's 29 meters.

...Let me just show you how wrong you are.

 

 

 

Just watched this 3 times. I didn't see anything about the length of a HKW

 

At the very beginning, if the HWK is 29 meters long, then Jan and Kyle are about 3 meters tall - the scale is all off for 29 meters, but just about right for somewhere between 16 and 20.

 

Not coincidentally, the people at Lucasarts, who actually designed the HWK, apparently confirmed it as 16.5 meters for FFG, who then used that scale for their model.

 

Whereas the 29 meters scale is straight from the West End Games books, which have a habit of... well... making up statistics if they're not found within 5 minutes of research.

 

None of that size quibbling changes what the HWK-290 is, though: a small light freighter.

Yeah, WEG are the same people who gave us the infamous 8 kilometer Executor and not quite as infamous (but it should be) 1.2 kilometer Home One. The latter never even got corrected, despite it being obvious from watching ROTJ that the ship is around three times that size. Unfortunately just plain wrong stats can be found all over Legends, thanks to WEG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Yeah, WEG are the same people who gave us the infamous 8 kilometer Executor and not quite as infamous (but it should be) 1.2 kilometer Home One. The latter never even got corrected, despite it being obvious from watching ROTJ that the ship is around three times that size. Unfortunately just plain wrong stats can be found all over Legends, thanks to WEG.

 

 

As Saxton points out at the time - the Guide To The Star Wars Universe from 1984 also bears some blame:

 

 

 

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ssd5mile.html

 

1984:

The first edition of A Guide to the STAR WARS Universe, published in the year following the release of Return of the Jedi says:

 

 Lord Darth Vader's personal flagship; classified as a Super Star Destroyer --- approximately five times larger and more destructive than any Star Destroyer in the Imperial Fleet.Executor represents the best and newest vessel available in the Imperial inventory. Like most ships in its class, Executor is used as a command ship, a spacegoing headquarters...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, WEG are the same people who gave us the infamous 8 kilometer Executor and not quite as infamous (but it should be) 1.2 kilometer Home One. The latter never even got corrected, despite it being obvious from watching ROTJ that the ship is around three times that size. Unfortunately just plain wrong stats can be found all over Legends, thanks to WEG.

But none of their inability to do research changes the fact that, according to the EU information we have, the HWK was designed as a freighter, and that the Moldy Crow was used as such.

 

Also, the only possibly canon source we have, Star Wars: Commander, describes it as "Originally manufactured without weapons, this HWK-290 freighter was outfitted to drop incendiary bombs."

 

The more I think about it, the more apt the truck comparison is - the HWK is a little pickup that can't haul much

Aah, I see. You don't actually know what freighter means do you? You're right, a pickup truck is a good analogy, and a pickup truck is not a freighter. Since you're ignorant on the matter, here's the definition curtesy of the Oxford University Press:

freighter

Pronunciation: /ˈfreɪtə/

NOUN

A large ship or aircraft designed to carry goods in bulk.

But that's not what it is in Star Wars. A freighter is a ship designed to carry goods across interplanetary distances, with different size categories for different value-weight cargoes. Judge it by its size, do you? And how much 'bulk' do you think the YT-1300 is gonna be able to carry in its three 3m x 2-4m holds? Is the Millennium Falcon not a freighter either? 

 

And pickup to semi is a valid comparison, because you could use both to carry cargo across the US (I've been a trucker, so yeah), but it would be a matter of what stuff I would carry to retain the same value in the limited freight space of a pickup. Guns are good, how do you think they get into Chicago from states with more lenient gun laws like Alabama? Drugs are also good, though some could argue that putting a tiny shipment of meth into a big shipment of furniture would be much easier smuggling... but then they wouldn't know how often semi-trucks get inspected.

 

Or maybe I'm just moving small amounts of cargo (fresh-baked bread? Farmer's Market fruit? A bunch of tools for gardening or handyman work?) around a city or county, and the fuel costs and unwieldiness of a semi-truck would be too much to handle. Replace 'county' with 'system' and you could see how a little freighter would have its advantages. "I'm bringing in artisanal bread for Emperor Palpatine's personal table from Naboo..."

 

 

...is... is everyone else having fun with this argument? If you're not having fun I'll drop it, but I'm enjoying it.

Edited by iamfanboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Debate around what the word 'freighter' means seems a bit silly, given we already know that words change in usage over time - and have demonstrably done so by the time Star Wars rolls around.

 

To whit: a modern 'destroyer' is a class of surface warship by definition smaller than a 'cruiser'...yet, in Star Wars, the Destroyers (notably Star Destroyers and their siblings) are universally larger than 'star cruisers' (like the CR-90).

 

That they could use the word 'freighter' to refer to something as small as something that would otherwise have a 'pickup truck' role is not inconsistent with how the scale usage of other words has also drifted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But that's not what it is in Star Wars. A freighter is a ship designed to carry goods across interplanetary distances, with different size categories for different value-weight cargoes. Judge it by its size, do you? And how much 'bulk' do you think the YT-1300 is gonna be able to carry in its three 3m x 2-4m holds? Is the Millennium Falcon not a freighter either?

What if the YT- freighters, the Jumpmaster, and the HWK are just the towing vehicles that moves external containers from point A to B, just like a truck without the trailer? They would be freighters in the same way the Bulk Freighter is clearly carrying 4 external box containers around.

Perhaps the HWK is a light freighter in the sense that it can tow small containers around, and that was it's main role. Then the Rebels and scum made use of these towing vehicles for reconnaissance and light combat duties because, maybe, these things are crazy fast and maneuverable when their engines and thrusters are not really spending their brute force moving huge containers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps the HWK is a light freighter in the sense that it can tow small containers around, and that was it's main role. Then the Rebels and scum made use of these towing vehicles for reconnaissance and light combat duties because, maybe, these things are crazy fast and maneuverable when their engines and thrusters are not really spending their brute force moving huge containers.

 

SWX12-HWK-290-md.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Destroyer class is simply "Lucas being Lucas and not caring because DESTROYER sounds pompous"

And everything in rebel squadrons is Starfighter.

And Freighters outclass every goddamn military vessel.

Terminology shifts around a lot even in real life.

 

The Arleigh Burke destroyer class is actually larger than some historical CRUISERS. It's still classed as a destroyer, though. Frigates were once a ship class right below the largest warships (ships of the line), and now it's used to describe tiny escort vessels that are there essentially to suck down torpedoes for a carrier. Nowadays, cruisers and dreadnaughts are dead classes, but could be revived sometime in the future for different purposes. 

 

 

And man, did FFG flunk on the dial on the HWK. They're specifically described as "lacking armaments and using its speed and maneuverability to avoid pirates" and yet it has the worst small-ship dial. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Destroyer class is simply "Lucas being Lucas and not caring because DESTROYER sounds pompous"

And everything in rebel squadrons is Starfighter.

And Freighters outclass every goddamn military vessel.

Terminology shifts around a lot even in real life.

 

The Arleigh Burke destroyer class is actually larger than some historical CRUISERS. It's still classed as a destroyer, though. Frigates were once a ship class right below the largest warships (ships of the line), and now it's used to describe tiny escort vessels that are there essentially to suck down torpedoes for a carrier. Nowadays, cruisers and dreadnaughts are dead classes, but could be revived sometime in the future for different purposes. 

Class means role, not size. 

Destroyer is an escort, patrol craft and submarine killer.

Cruiser is the "workhorse" being balanced in every dimension, able to do anything.

Battleship is XBOXHUGE thing that can obliterate anything, if it manages to get into range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But that's not what it is in Star Wars. A freighter is a ship designed to carry goods across interplanetary distances, with different size categories for different value-weight cargoes. Judge it by its size, do you? And how much 'bulk' do you think the YT-1300 is gonna be able to carry in its three 3m x 2-4m holds? Is the Millennium Falcon not a freighter either? 

 

And pickup to semi is a valid comparison, because you could use both to carry cargo across the US (I've been a trucker, so yeah), but it would be a matter of what stuff I would carry to retain the same value in the limited freight space of a pickup. Guns are good, how do you think they get into Chicago from states with more lenient gun laws like Alabama? Drugs are also good, though some could argue that putting a tiny shipment of meth into a big shipment of furniture would be much easier smuggling... but then they wouldn't know how often semi-trucks get inspected.

 

Or maybe I'm just moving small amounts of cargo (fresh-baked bread? Farmer's Market fruit? A bunch of tools for gardening or handyman work?) around a city or county, and the fuel costs and unwieldiness of a semi-truck would be too much to handle. Replace 'county' with 'system' and you could see how a little freighter would have its advantages. "I'm bringing in artisanal bread for Emperor Palpatine's personal table from Naboo..."

 

 

...is... is everyone else having fun with this argument? If you're not having fun I'll drop it, but I'm enjoying it.

 

It's a film made in English.  What do you think is more likely - that somebody sat down, thought long and hard about it, and decided that "freighter" in Galactic Basic had a different meaning from the one it has in the language the films (etc) were written in (for no reason - there are plenty other words available), or that somebody just didn't think it through and it got messed up (and later on somebody tried to retcon it by redefining "freighter", somewhat desperately)?  I'm inclined to think the latter.

 

And yeah, I've always thought "freighter" is a silly description for the Falcon too, I mean it's not that much bigger than the Moldy Crow or X-Wing.  If anything, the YT-1300 is more akin to a medium sized lorry.

 

You'd think in Star Wars land freighters would be the size of ISDs.  Maybe there are some - anyone seen them in some books or comics or games?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The more I think about it, the more apt the truck comparison is - the HWK is a little pickup that can't haul much

Aah, I see. You don't actually know what freighter means do you? You're right, a pickup truck is a good analogy, and a pickup truck is not a freighter. Since you're ignorant on the matter, here's the definition curtesy of the Oxford University Press:

freighter

Pronunciation: /ˈfreɪtə/

NOUN

A large ship or aircraft designed to carry goods in bulk.

Sorry for my tone there by the way, I was a little drunk!

Edited by mazz0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Destroyer class is simply "Lucas being Lucas and not caring because DESTROYER sounds pompous"

And everything in rebel squadrons is Starfighter.

And Freighters outclass every goddamn military vessel.

Terminology shifts around a lot even in real life.

 

The Arleigh Burke destroyer class is actually larger than some historical CRUISERS. It's still classed as a destroyer, though. Frigates were once a ship class right below the largest warships (ships of the line), and now it's used to describe tiny escort vessels that are there essentially to suck down torpedoes for a carrier. Nowadays, cruisers and dreadnaughts are dead classes, but could be revived sometime in the future for different purposes. 

Class means role, not size. 

Destroyer is an escort, patrol craft and submarine killer.

Cruiser is the "workhorse" being balanced in every dimension, able to do anything.

Battleship is XBOXHUGE thing that can obliterate anything, if it manages to get into range.

 

The Arleigh Burke does a traditional cruiser's job too - it's used to bombard shore targets (what do you think carried out the Iraq War 'shock and awe' attacks?) or fight ship-to-ship. Role shift as well as size shift.

 

Frigates once were fast ships that served as fast flankers or raiders and formed the bulk of a fleet's combat-ready ships. Now they're nothing but escorts for the center of a battlegroup, or patrol ships. 

 

Your class listing is 70 years obsolete, as only a couple of modern fleets still operate cruisers, and NONE have battleships. The airplane changed everything. 

 

 

And that's kind of my point: things change. Words change meaning. In however long ago and at whatever distance Star Wars takes place from today, the term 'freighter' apparently includes anything that can carry any amount of cargo, from the massive Bulk Freighters like the one from that Chopper-centric episode to (comparitively) tiny ships like the Falcon and Moldy Crow. Saying "That doesn't make sense and is stupid" violates the basic rule of observing canon: If it is said and not contradicted, then it's a fact and must be treated as such. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's that "Falcon Tug" image to suggest it isn't just internal cargo the Falcon can transport:

 

dzRqFCkAqHiwnXoebpZJnbTkKLDUHD4ty4aYuWEJ

Is that official? While it would make a lot of sense, it also makes the YT-series really impractical with how often those mandibles are occupied with a cockpit or just don't exist (Outrider).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Arleigh Burke does a traditional cruiser's job too - it's used to bombard shore targets (what do you think carried out the Iraq War 'shock and awe' attacks?) or fight ship-to-ship. Role shift as well as size shift.

 

Frigates once were fast ships that served as fast flankers or raiders and formed the bulk of a fleet's combat-ready ships. Now they're nothing but escorts for the center of a battlegroup, or patrol ships. 

 

Your class listing is 70 years obsolete, as only a couple of modern fleets still operate cruisers, and NONE have battleships. The airplane changed everything. 

 

 

And that's kind of my point: things change. Words change meaning. In however long ago and at whatever distance Star Wars takes place from today, the term 'freighter' apparently includes anything that can carry any amount of cargo, from the massive Bulk Freighters like the one from that Chopper-centric episode to (comparitively) tiny ships like the Falcon and Moldy Crow. Saying "That doesn't make sense and is stupid" violates the basic rule of observing canon: If it is said and not contradicted, then it's a fact and must be treated as such. 

 

They do, but I think there's a difference between complex military designations like that and a simple, broad term like "freighter", which is nice and vague and has no reason to change.  It's so general purpose - a big thing for moving lots of stuff - I can't foresee a situation where it would logically change over time. It's easy to see such a situation for military designations, as technology changes, and the way wars are fought changes, during the lifespan of vessels under a certain designation.  I think it would make sense when using English to represent what's being said by these aliens in another galaxy to assume them use the English word freighter.

 

And come on, it's the old EU, surely nobody can deny it was full of badly thought out inconsistent nonsense desperately fudged by somebody writing some book or website to try to make it make sense?  That's part of its charm :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's that "Falcon Tug" image to suggest it isn't just internal cargo the Falcon can transport:

 

dzRqFCkAqHiwnXoebpZJnbTkKLDUHD4ty4aYuWEJ

Is that official? While it would make a lot of sense, it also makes the YT-series really impractical with how often those mandibles are occupied with a cockpit or just don't exist (Outrider).

It's semi-official. That was intended for inclusion in The Force Awakens Incredible Cross-Sections, but the image wasn't completed in time. What we see there is the rough, incomplete image to show the concept.

 

But yeah that would be YT-1300 specific and not something that other YT-series that lack the mandibles could do.

Edited by Red XIV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was also this thing in Rebels:

imperial-cargo-ship_40565cbb.jpeg

 

Wow, that looks like it has a larger payload than the Eravana - a real equivalent to a container "freighter"  :)  ;)

 

(EDIT: Already thinking about what's involved in building one  :wacko: )

Edited by ianmiddy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

There was also this thing in Rebels:

imperial-cargo-ship_40565cbb.jpeg

 

Wow, that looks like it has a larger payload than the Eravana - a real equivalent to a container "freighter"  :)  ;)

 

Except its largely hollow on the inside. What you see is essentially a box frame with a scattering of crates inside. Good episode of rebels but man were they merciless as hell to those stormtroopers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

There was also this thing in Rebels:

 

 

Wow, that looks like it has a larger payload than the Eravana - a real equivalent to a container "freighter"  :)  ;)

 

Except its largely hollow on the inside. What you see is essentially a box frame with a scattering of crates inside. Good episode of rebels but man were they merciless as hell to those stormtroopers.

 

 

Ah, blast - thanks for dashing my hopes ;)  ...so, more like the Eravana than at first glance, I guess...can't wait for these episodes to be out on DVD...wonder if this ship might make it into a Rebels incredible-cross-sections ???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except its largely hollow on the inside. What you see is essentially a box frame with a scattering of crates inside. Good episode of rebels but man were they merciless as hell to those stormtroopers.

Yeah, it's strange what they did with the interior. Is there a main cargo bay and the containers are attached to its sides?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Except its largely hollow on the inside. What you see is essentially a box frame with a scattering of crates inside. Good episode of rebels but man were they merciless as hell to those stormtroopers.

Yeah, it's strange what they did with the interior. Is there a main cargo bay and the containers are attached to its sides?

 

That could make sense.

 

That and the Eravana are what freighters should look like, albeit small ones.  If "heavy" means large, and the Eravana is a heavy freighter, they'd have to invent silly phrases like super-freighter for genuinely large ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rebels is a fantastic show. It's done an excellent job in developing characters through both seasons. Much like the latter half of the Clone Wars series, it has spent quite a bit of time developing the characters as people, not just archetypes.

 

No idea why there's hate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...