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mazz0

Are mobile arcs the shape of things to come?

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If FFG can't get the player base to accept the superior damage deck 2.0 when bundled with an awesome new X-Wing and a pair of rad new TIE Fighters, what makes anyone think FFG could get the player base to accept an entire new X-Wing 2.0?

 

If FFG said the old damage deck wasn't tournament legal I think the new one would be rather widely accepted.

Edited by mazz0

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The argument against turrets can be more obviously observed if we look at mirror matches.

 

Say we face off with identical Palp+Aces list in a series of 5 games, who wins? In all likelihood the player that can better read his opponent will come out on top. We still have a luck factor with the die, but skill and decision making still remain supreme.

 

Now let's do the same with identical double YT1300 list, who wins? It's likely that beyond the initial engagement both players ships will have a shot 90% of the time, and the times they don't the enemy also will not have a shot. In such a situation it comes down purely to the dice to decide the victor.

 

The game basically becomes monopoly with space ships. Now some people like monopoly, obviously as it has been around for decades and will likely outlive us all(Sadly). I on the other hand F#%@ing hate monopoly. It's a game where human input is so minimal you can just as easily play it with your self rolling for each separate piece as you can with other people. It's more luck based than many forms of gambling. That's the basis of why people hate PWT ships so much, it replaces skill with luck.

 

The fact that they had to design a card that quickly became mandatory on arc dodgers specifically to counter turrets is a good indicator of poor design, mandatory upgrades are generally bad, unless we're talking the titles they're now using to give ships special abilities outside unique pilots.

 

As for the possibility of 2.0, I don't see why not, beyond FFG's stated desire not to make cardboard only expansions. Revamping the rules after a point almost becomes a necessity. With a constant string of expansions the problems of rule bloat, power creep, and shelf only units will continue to increase. Just about every long term wargame I can think of goes through this eventually, it seems to be the natural progression. As for the cost to consumers, I don't see it being that bad unless they stick to their guns on the cardboard thing. Realistically they could release card packs like Netrunner boxes that contain the updated ship cards and bases, then just switch back to their previous business model for 2.0. I honestly wish they did this anyway just so we could get new pilots for our favorite ships every now and then.

 

Ok, so say they issue 2.0 and they issue cardboard only updates.  What are stores supposed to do with all outstanding inventory?  Does FFG wait until every ship is sold out to swap versions?  If they do how to they continue to make money during the transition?  If they don't what do the stores do with the inventory?  What happens to players with huge investments in ship which would require huge reinvestment in cardboard?  You do understand what punch and print costs and what shipping costs right?

 

It would be simpler to just close down X-wing and launch a new game with the similar mechanics but redesigned completely from every angle.  Simpler, fairer to stores and players and FFG.

 

 

They don't need to reissue ships, new ships have new cards, simple as that. Old ships can remain with their old cards for those that wish to play 1.0. If you want to play with the old ships in 2.0 you simply buy the cardboard expansion that could be priced between 20-40 USD. Is popping 40 bucks per faction really a huge investment? That's about the same price as a single ship.

 

Production wise, check out Netrunner, a card game produced by this very company. If you check the homepage you'll see that it is constantly getting expansions, faster even then this game. Using this as a basis for how much the cardboard would cost to produce, the 15$ packs have 60 cards, the deluxe expansions cost 30$ and have 165 cards, and the core set cost 40$ and has 252 cards along with the cardboard for various tokens. There is absolutely no reason that Xwing cards should cost more to produce, and using these numbers as examples I think we could easily see faction based 2.0 expansions at around 30 USD.

 

Sorry friend, your argument just don't hold water.

 

 

Ok, so lets do some math.  First lets say we are going to just cutover to 2.0 with a hard swap.  Retailers now have $15+ expansions, lets say each state has 20 game stores and each has $1000 in inventory.  This would be a $1 million hurt put on just US brick and mortars, exposure to online resellers would be even greater per company and they run tighter margins as they sell on volume.  Maybe the stores would accept this, maybe not but either way their inventory would essentially become reduced in value by the cost of the upgrade packs which would necessarily be more than their profit margins.

 

On to upgrade packs.  Each needs to include all relevant ship cards and punch and upgrades for a given hull to bring them up to the new 2.0 format.  Let's say upgrade cards go unchanged and only ship cards and ship punch changes.  You would necessarily need to break everything down into per ship packs so that everyone could buy what they need.  Lets take a $15 packaged ship and break it down.  $15 MSRP, roughly $8-10 wholesale price, $6-8 FFG cost.  So with that we have about $3 for the model and $3 for punch/board/plastic packaging.  Lets say that can be brought down to $2 by cutting extra tokens and upgrade cards.  Now back up the scale, $2 cost goes to a $3 wholesale goes to a $5 MSRP.  So for the low low cost of 30% of what you already paid for each ship you own (less % for big ships) you can buy in to 2.0 and be a part of the new game.  Now lets say you have a moderate collection of 8 ships per faction, your costs would be fairly moderate, only $120 plus tax to update.  Now take someone with a serious collection and 1 of each ship, now you are talking almost $200.  Then take some enthusiast collections and you are looking at a lot of money.

 

So your plan would cost FFG nothing but a reputation hit, stores would lose about $1 million, more for online sellers and players would lose about 30% of what they had already paid or would be relegated to 1.0 only.  Yes, this sounds just fine for everyone and perfectly reasonable...

Edited by Jetfire

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If FFG said the old damage deck wasn't tournament legal I think the new one would be rather widely accepted.

I'm not sure if you're joking or not. FFG _did_ say that old damage deck would no longer be tournament legal. The player base revolted. FFG reversed their decision.

 

It was a bad move on FFG's part. now every Tom, ****, and Harry think their whimsy will happen if they moan about it enough on the forums.

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If FFG said the old damage deck wasn't tournament legal I think the new one would be rather widely accepted.

I'm not sure if you're joking or not. FFG _did_ say that old damage deck would no longer be tournament legal. The player base revolted. FFG reversed their decision.

 

 

It was a bad move on FFG's part. now every Tom, ****, and Harry think their whimsy will happen if they moan about it enough on the forums.

 

Which is why we now see all of this crying about PWT as well as all of that outcry about Intentional Draws.  This thread may be talking about the PWT Mobile Firing Arc but I haven't seen anything about the ID since that initial whining.  Maybe it's not as "broken" as some want to think it is either.

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The mobile firing arc isn't broken at all. In fact, it kind of uses one of the fixes for the PWT suggested that I liked that wouldn't require the addition of autothrusters into the game (which someone was whining about at the time). Fire inside your primary arc, no problem. Want to fire outside your primary arc? You need to burn a focus.

So this does something similar which is to require an action to re-orient the aux arc.

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If FFG said the old damage deck wasn't tournament legal I think the new one would be rather widely accepted.

I'm not sure if you're joking or not. FFG _did_ say that old damage deck would no longer be tournament legal. The player base revolted. FFG reversed their decision.

 

 

It was a bad move on FFG's part. now every Tom, ****, and Harry think their whimsy will happen if they moan about it enough on the forums.

 

Which is why we now see all of this crying about PWT as well as all of that outcry about Intentional Draws.  This thread may be talking about the PWT Mobile Firing Arc but I haven't seen anything about the ID since that initial whining.  Maybe it's not as "broken" as some want to think it is either.

 

Roanoke just happened to be the perfect storm. if I was 9th or 10th there I would have been pissed and I'll maintain that top 8 are ***** for doing it but it is a highly unlikely thing to occur consistently enough to merit changes. 

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If they wanted to change PWTs and have the player base not revolt, they could always just give the new cardboard away for free at store events/tournaments/whatever.

It's probably instead going to be how they will design turreted ships in the future, and the old ones will stay the same.

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If FFG said the old damage deck wasn't tournament legal I think the new one would be rather widely accepted.

I'm not sure if you're joking or not. FFG _did_ say that old damage deck would no longer be tournament legal. The player base revolted. FFG reversed their decision.

 

 

It was a bad move on FFG's part. now every Tom, ****, and Harry think their whimsy will happen if they moan about it enough on the forums.

 

Which is why we now see all of this crying about PWT as well as all of that outcry about Intentional Draws.  This thread may be talking about the PWT Mobile Firing Arc but I haven't seen anything about the ID since that initial whining.  Maybe it's not as "broken" as some want to think it is either.

 

 

FFG is also addressing IDs.  That could be part of why the whining stopped.

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If they wanted to change PWTs and have the player base not revolt, they could always just give the new cardboard away for free at store events/tournaments/whatever.

It's probably instead going to be how they will design turreted ships in the future, and the old ones will stay the same.

 

Sure, changing just PWT to MFA would require minor cardboard giveaways but the ships would be completely unbalanced.  Far too expensive.  Unless they got two MFA's and they got a free assign turret action, but then it would break autothrusters and largely be a superfluous change.  PWT's are viable as are MFA and they work differently.  This gives them a choice on any given ship whether they prefer to add a PWT or a MFA to the meta.  This is the likely choice and more PWT will be released but probably fewer than would without MFA.

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If FFG said the old damage deck wasn't tournament legal I think the new one would be rather widely accepted.

I'm not sure if you're joking or not. FFG _did_ say that old damage deck would no longer be tournament legal. The player base revolted. FFG reversed their decision.

 

 

It was a bad move on FFG's part. now every Tom, ****, and Harry think their whimsy will happen if they moan about it enough on the forums.

 

Which is why we now see all of this crying about PWT as well as all of that outcry about Intentional Draws.  This thread may be talking about the PWT Mobile Firing Arc but I haven't seen anything about the ID since that initial whining.  Maybe it's not as "broken" as some want to think it is either.

 

 

FFG is also addressing IDs.  That could be part of why the whining stopped.

 

Bingo... when you admit you made a mistake and agree to fix it... people are satisfied.

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If FFG said the old damage deck wasn't tournament legal I think the new one would be rather widely accepted.

I'm not sure if you're joking or not. FFG _did_ say that old damage deck would no longer be tournament legal. The player base revolted. FFG reversed their decision.

Seriously? People who've spent enough on the game already to be able to wield a competitive squad were outraged at the idea of spending another $25 for an update to keep on playing in tournaments? Jeez...

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From what I can see with the Shadow Caster, the ship should be treated like a Large ship with a forward firing arc, and the MFA should be treated as a bonus. You won't be spending a whole lot of your actions actually moving it, and moving it will cause you to lose a bit of accuracy from it. But. If you can make use of it, you'll end up with a bit of extra power.

I'm not actually sure if the MFA will be worth the points you'll have to spend on the Shadow Caster to get it.

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The only way a X-Wing 2.0 could ever fly... Is if it cost at most $20-25 per faction for someone to replace every card they owned.

Of course that causes a whole new issue... How many of each upgrade goes into a pack, 1, 4, 12? Also what do retailers do with all the old ships that are no longer tournament legal? Myself I picked up the 5th edition 40k book which retailed at $90 for $10 the other day.

Edited by VanorDM

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Seriously?

Did you take a couple months off from the boards? When FFG said the old damage deck wouldn't be tournament legal it caused a firestorm here, and they adventually changed the rule so both decks are legal.

But yeah the point stands, FFG couldn't get people to accept a new damage deck from the TFA core... A 2.0 is pretty much a non-option until the game itself is about to die.

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...

 

Which is why we now see all of this crying about PWT as well as all of that outcry about Intentional Draws.  This thread may be talking about the PWT Mobile Firing Arc but I haven't seen anything about the ID since that initial whining.  Maybe it's not as "broken" as some want to think it is either.

 

 

FFG is also addressing IDs.  That could be part of why the whining stopped.

 

 

They may have addressed it but has anything actually changed?  In some ways it is almost like saying "we're looking into Fortressing" which is another thing some people loved to whine about like it is a REALLY BIG DEAL when it really isn't.

 

 

Now the suggestion that FFG needs to "fix" PWT and then should distribute that fix for free is great except how do you get it to everyone?  Distributing it to stores and at tournaments sounds fine and dandy IF you go to those things regularly but what about someone who doesn't make it to those things but wants to play the game. "They can just keep going like they are going," is a fine answer until one of those people does decide to venture out and runs smack into things without being at all prepared for this "fix" that everyone has but which is no longer available because who's going to keep handing out the free fixes forever?

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Seriously?

Did you take a couple months off from the boards?

Yes.

Regarding mobile firing arcs: I wonder if you'll be able so fire your primary weapon from your primary arc regardless of where you're mobile arc currently is.

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They may have addressed it but has anything actually changed?

No nothing has and we don't even know if they'll actually get rid of it in the end.

Now the suggestion that FFG needs to "fix" PWT and then should distribute that fix for free is great except how do you get it to everyone?

Same issue with Imperial Assault when they nerfed a few units. You got replacements at the store championship, but only the first 32 did, and only one copy. At least there you can print out the errata... Which I suppose could work here, some sort of sticker over the existing base card, you could print out. But that all presumes that FFG actually wants to change how PWT work...

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Yes.

That would explain it then.

I wonder if you'll be able so fire your primary weapon from your primary arc regardless of where you're mobile arc currently is.

I'd guess no... It looks like you pick an arc and that's your one and only active arc until you you move it. But then I'm not sure how that interacts with things that depend on being or out of arc.

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Yes.

That would explain it then.

I wonder if you'll be able so fire your primary weapon from your primary arc regardless of where you're mobile arc currently is.

I'd guess no... It looks like you pick an arc and that's your one and only active arc until you you move it. But then I'm not sure how that interacts with things that depend on being or out of arc.

They still have a primary arc marked on though. Now that could just be for secondary weapons, but I dunno.

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Yes.

That would explain it then.

I wonder if you'll be able so fire your primary weapon from your primary arc regardless of where you're mobile arc currently is.

I'd guess no... It looks like you pick an arc and that's your one and only active arc until you you move it. But then I'm not sure how that interacts with things that depend on being or out of arc.

They still have a primary arc marked on though. Now that could just be for secondary weapons, but I dunno.

 

 

it's more than likely for 2ndary weapons and for select pilot abilities (Ketsu)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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They still have a primary arc marked on though.

That's the thing and I'll freely admit I'm just guessing...

But as the rules stand now, any printed arc counts as an arc, for things like Autothruters or Backstabber. I'd presume that would still hold true for the MA rules, that they'd be treated like an arc even if you can't shoot from them.  Because otherwise it could be a huge mess. 

 

But the whole concept of a MA seems less of a deal if you can still shoot out the primary arc, because then what you really have is a mobile aux arc.    

 

Although I suppose primary attacks only out of the arc the arrow is pointing at, but secondary ones from any printed arc or perhaps only the primary arc could be how it will work.

Edited by VanorDM

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They still have a primary arc marked on though.

That's the thing and I'll freely admit I'm just guessing...

But as the rules stand now, any printed arc counts as an arc, for things like Autothruters or Backstabber. I'd presume that would still hold true for the MA rules, that they'd be treated like an arc even if you can't shoot from them. Because otherwise it could be a huge mess.

But the whole concept of a MA seems less of a deal if you can still shoot out the primary arc, because then what you really have is a mobile aux arc.

Although I suppose primary attacks only out of the arc the arrow is pointing at, but secondary ones from any printed arc or perhaps only the primary arc could be how it will work.

Yeah, there's certainly plenty other stuff the static arc could be for while primary weapon attacks are still limited to the mobile arc. Allowing both though would make it more of a halfway between a PWT and a single arc ship. I could see it being either. Edited by mazz0

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The only way a X-Wing 2.0 could ever fly... Is if it cost at most $20-25 per faction for someone to replace every card they owned.

Of course that causes a whole new issue... How many of each upgrade goes into a pack, 1, 4, 12? Also what do retailers do with all the old ships that are no longer tournament legal? Myself I picked up the 5th edition 40k book which retailed at $90 for $10 the other day.

 

 

You could potentially do it by providing online printable errata stickers, but this is super clunky and not their style.  A pack of sticker paper is like $20.  All things considered it would not occur unless something was horrendously broken and risked killing the game.

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