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mazz0

Are mobile arcs the shape of things to come?

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Anybody else wonder if the mobile arc on the Shadow Caster is a test, and if it's well received we'll see the first major revision to the game to replace all turrets with that?

 

Would be a huge undertaking, potentially, possibly requiring recostings and therefore replacement cards for many ships and upgrades, but would remove an element that many people think reduces the skill and enjoyment of the game.

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idk, but here's hoping

 

unlike the PWT rule, there's some actual effort and design put into the mobile arc to force player decision and interaction beyond throwing dice

 

 

won't be for years to come, though, so likely the world will have ended by the time the reprinted bases come out

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idk, but here's hoping

 

unlike the PWT rule, there's some actual effort and design put into the mobile arc to force player decision and interaction beyond throwing dice

 

 

won't be for years to come, though, so likely the world will have ended by the time the reprinted bases come out

 

Good point, it would take new bases too wouldn't it.  I was just thinking it would need new cards...

 

Still, other games have had second editions with bigger changes, it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

Edited by mazz0

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I have, many times, wished FFG tried to correct turret ships. It's illogical to think a gunner can make as good of a shot from 180 degrees from their current viewpoint as their focused viewpoint. I like what they're thinking about in their arc shooting dynamics, but turrets are the "dumbness" of this game (or the least fun/easiest) if there is one; and actually piloting small single focused fighters is the "smartness" (or the most fun/toughest) if there is one.....but they're all "in the toy box" now.

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...likely the world will have ended by the time the reprinted bases come out

 

Couldn't you just have a transparent 'cover' for the existing bases with the arcs & action-icon printed on it...get several with the next ship that has mobile arcs, or sold separately like the bases/pegs ???

 

[i'm assuming that any adjustment to Attack pts etc would just be done like a Title/Mod/PS adjust]

 

Just a thought...

Edited by ianmiddy

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I doubt you'd see it before a second edition. You'd have to re-cost all the existing primary weapon turrets, issue new base plates, and revise various upgrades that work with the existing turret and firing arc mechanics.

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Anybody else wonder if the mobile arc on the Shadow Caster is a test, and if it's well received we'll see the first major revision to the game to replace all turrets with that?

 

Would be a huge undertaking, potentially, possibly requiring recostings and therefore replacement cards for many ships and upgrades, but would remove an element that many people think reduces the skill and enjoyment of the game.

You would think they might have waited on the 2nd Falcon, if that were the case, so the YT-1300 could be the first revision. . .

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...likely the world will have ended by the time the reprinted bases come out

 

Couldn't you just have a transparent 'cover' for the existing bases with the arcs & action-icon printed on it...get several with the next ship that has mobile arcs, or sold separately like the bases/pegs ???

 

[i'm assuming that any adjustment to Attack pts etc would just be done like a Title/Mod/PS adjust]

 

Just a thought...

 

Could do I suppose.  You thinking someone that just sits on top and can be removed, or a film that gets stuck on permanently?

 

Alternatively, they could say that existing ships just have two arcs to chose from, forward and everything else.  Mind you, this would totally screw up anything that makes reference to a ship being in another ships arc.

Edited by mazz0

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I'm new to miniatures games like this. When other games undergo a 2.0 revision, what happens to all the 1.0 product? Is it still compatible or do you need to rebuy everything? do they come out with a 2.0 upgrade kit that includes a whole wack of revision tokens and cards to update the stuff prior? Or is it, this is 2.0 and we are starting fresh, no 1.0 stuff allowed. If you wanna go play 1.0, you need to go over there and play with the people who already spent a small fortune on ships. 

 

I can see it now... "why is there suddenly $1000 on the credit card from the local gaming store?" "well you see honey, X-Wing 2.0 came out and now I gotta buy all new stuff." "why can't you use the old stuff" "because its 2.0"

 

insert mistakes were made comic

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You thinking someone that just sits on top and can be removed, or a film that gets stuck on permanently?

 

 

At first I thought sit on, but then I guess it might move around too much during play - would a stick-on film be so bad ? - What type of turret you're using would be recognizable just through having the mobile-arc pointer in place, and the base would then show both the 360 arrow and the four arcs...

 

...just trying to come up with a solution that doesn't involve major re-release of components.  :unsure:

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You thinking someone that just sits on top and can be removed, or a film that gets stuck on permanently?

 

 

At first I thought sit on, but then I guess it might move around too much during play - would a stick-on film be so bad ? - What type of turret you're using would be recognizable just through having the mobile-arc pointer in place, and the base would then show both the 360 arrow and the four arcs...

 

...just trying to come up with a solution that doesn't involve major re-release of components.  :unsure:

 

I think it'd still need new cards as the costs would need correcting, so might as well include bases while they're doing that.

 

Doesnt seem likely really does it?  Shame...

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I'm new to miniatures games like this. When other games undergo a 2.0 revision, what happens to all the 1.0 product? Is it still compatible or do you need to rebuy everything? do they come out with a 2.0 upgrade kit that includes a whole wack of revision tokens and cards to update the stuff prior? Or is it, this is 2.0 and we are starting fresh, no 1.0 stuff allowed. If you wanna go play 1.0, you need to go over there and play with the people who already spent a small fortune on ships. 

 

I can see it now... "why is there suddenly $1000 on the credit card from the local gaming store?" "well you see honey, X-Wing 2.0 came out and now I gotta buy all new stuff." "why can't you use the old stuff" "because its 2.0"

 

insert mistakes were made comic

 

Yeah, making a whole replacement game would be bad, in my book.  I'd spend a fair amount to update though.

Edited by mazz0

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Nope.  What a terrible idea!  This would basically force everyone to re-buy essential components and would take away not only a large portion of the game itself, but the player base as well.  PWTs have a mangled image mostly due to the childlike behavior of people who don't like them as evidenced on these very forums.  A quick search for PWTs will yield a ton of results, most of them with very negative content.  People who defend PWTs online or profess to enjoy playing them are quickly dismissed as ice cream eating minors who have no real input.  If FFG were to revise the rules and remove PWTs from the game they would be in fact validating every single negative thing said about PWTs, and thus themselves as designers.

 

PWTs do not need to be removed from the game or revised into something else.  People need to learn how to deal with these them, just like people will have to learn how to deal with mobile arcs.  There is room in X-WIng for both mechanics, both playstyles.  To say otherwise is ridiculous by default.  X-Wing revisionism is a movement that needs to be stopped because it tells FFG we are willing to re-invest in the game.  We don't need to do that no matter how many toys you have or how many toys FFG could potentially sell. 

 

If you really want to talk about X-Wing 2.0 then let's talk about a stand-alone hard copy rulebook that presents alternative rules for X-WIng.  SOmething that one could opt to buy at any point and does not replace anything.  Those who wished to play with alternative rules can purchase the hard copy rulebook and simply use it in addition to their collection.  The core game and business model of X-WIng should continue on unobstructed by any sort of impediment.  Core sets should still exist and from time to time be updated a little to give more options for beginning players and veteran alike.  Expansions should remain as they are, with no single ship or card becoming obsolete and needing a replacement of any kind.  This is a perfectly balanced approach and we have enjoyed it enough to make X-WIng one of the most popular games around, so let's not fool ourselves into thinking we need to fix it because it's really not broken.  FFG is capable of printing some pretty nice books and I'm sure that if such an option were presented you would find a lot of support for that.  But extra tokens or components, rebuying ships?   Not an option as far as I'm concerned.

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Anybody else wonder if the mobile arc on the Shadow Caster is a test, and if it's well received we'll see the first major revision to the game to replace all turrets with that?

 

Would be a huge undertaking, potentially, possibly requiring recostings and therefore replacement cards for many ships and upgrades, but would remove an element that many people think reduces the skill and enjoyment of the game.

 

It may be a test but only as far as future developments are concerned.  Having it REPLACE the way all other turrets currently work is such a huge undertaking it would basically mean blowing up X-Wing as we know it and rebuilding from the ground up.

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Anybody else wonder if the mobile arc on the Shadow Caster is a test, and if it's well received we'll see the first major revision to the game to replace all turrets with that?

 

Would be a huge undertaking, potentially, possibly requiring recostings and therefore replacement cards for many ships and upgrades, but would remove an element that many people think reduces the skill and enjoyment of the game.

 

It may be a test but only as far as future developments are concerned.  Having it REPLACE the way all other turrets currently work is such a huge undertaking it would basically mean blowing up X-Wing as we know it and rebuilding from the ground up.

 

 

not really

 

considering literally all the rules stay the same and we're affecting a very small portion of the game, an ESPECIALLY small portion if you count PWTs that you actually see competitively, it's not that huge an undertaking

 

really, it's more of an opportunity to rebalance horrible design decisions, including not only the PWT rule itself but some of the particularly useless additions to the game such as the ORS and non-dash yt-2400s

 

course that's just assuming we replace only PWTs with mobile arcs. Secondary turrets already come with restrictions

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I'm new to miniatures games like this. When other games undergo a 2.0 revision, what happens to all the 1.0 product? Is it still compatible or do you need to rebuy everything? do they come out with a 2.0 upgrade kit that includes a whole wack of revision tokens and cards to update the stuff prior? Or is it, this is 2.0 and we are starting fresh, no 1.0 stuff allowed. If you wanna go play 1.0, you need to go over there and play with the people who already spent a small fortune on ships. 

 

I can see it now... "why is there suddenly $1000 on the credit card from the local gaming store?" "well you see honey, X-Wing 2.0 came out and now I gotta buy all new stuff." "why can't you use the old stuff" "because its 2.0"

 

insert mistakes were made comic

 

I can't speak to all revision times but can speak about a couple of them.

 

In MtG, there was a pretty major shake up when the 6th-edition rules came out.  What happened to the old cards?  The were pretty much revised and always treated as such when they show up.  I'm not sure what's legal right now but if you were using cards from Beta they would be treated as the most recent version of the card even if it changes much of the text on the card.

 

D&D Minis.  I'd say this game went through two revisions.  The first was pretty minor and basically just involved changing how mini stats are presented (card format) and a few of the metagame rules which altered how the game was played but not the actual pieces.  A much later revision essentially was scrapping the original game and coming out with something new.  WotC did release updates to previous minis that could be printed out and used but didn't do much to actually make transitioning to the "new" game any easier.  I can say that this change basically killed my interest in getting more DDM pieces due to some of the radical changes.

 

When it comes to errata/revision/house rules I'll favor and support those that bring the less played/used aspects of the game back towards the playable.  What I HATE are the changes that completely destroy what had been good solid builds just because some may think they are too strong.  If things were rated on a power level from 1-5 with 5 being the top I don't want to see anything at level 5 unless there are some specific counters for it a say level 3 or lower; something like level 4 would be a good "take all" build that puts up a fight but isn't generally an auto-win against anything reasonable.  When it comes to boosting such a game I don't want to see things pushed to level 5 power but am generally ok seeing 1-2 get pushed to 3-4.

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I'm new to miniatures games like this. When other games undergo a 2.0 revision, what happens to all the 1.0 product? Is it still compatible or do you need to rebuy everything? do they come out with a 2.0 upgrade kit that includes a whole wack of revision tokens and cards to update the stuff prior? Or is it, this is 2.0 and we are starting fresh, no 1.0 stuff allowed. If you wanna go play 1.0, you need to go over there and play with the people who already spent a small fortune on ships. 

 

I can see it now... "why is there suddenly $1000 on the credit card from the local gaming store?" "well you see honey, X-Wing 2.0 came out and now I gotta buy all new stuff." "why can't you use the old stuff" "because its 2.0"

 

insert mistakes were made comic

It depends on the game really. In a game like 40k, the models are meaningless and each player has a book of rules and a second book for the faction. A change in the rules requires players to only buy a new book. (although their army may now be bad, and while some savvy players use magnets to keep their options open, finding out that melta-gun you painted and glued on is now overpriced and terrible can hurt the wallet)

X wing is different: game pieces have rules on them. You're not allowed to alter them (beyond paint scheme) because the firing arc and stat line have meaning. There's a rule book, but your army is a series of cards. In an x wing 2.0 every card would need to be replaced and every ship token would need to be too.

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...

not really

 

considering literally all the rules stay the same and we're affecting a very small portion of the game, an ESPECIALLY small portion if you count PWTs that you actually see competitively, it's not that huge an undertaking

 

really, it's more of an opportunity to rebalance horrible design decisions, including not only the PWT rule itself but some of the particularly useless additions to the game such as the ORS and non-dash yt-2400s

 

course that's just assuming we replace only PWTs with mobile arcs. Secondary turrets already come with restrictions

 

 

If PWT are such a "small portion of the game" then there is no need to make any changes to them.

 

Would Mobile Arcs make them better?  Perhaps in a few limited cases.  Would it make them worse.  In general, YES it would especially considering the cost in using that mobile arc.

 

If you want to kill the PWT perhaps they should do away with Boost and Barrel Roll as well.

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Nope.  What a terrible idea!  This would basically force everyone to re-buy essential components and would take away not only a large portion of the game itself, but the player base as well.  PWTs have a mangled image mostly due to the childlike behavior of people who don't like them as evidenced on these very forums.  A quick search for PWTs will yield a ton of results, most of them with very negative content.  People who defend PWTs online or profess to enjoy playing them are quickly dismissed as ice cream eating minors who have no real input.  If FFG were to revise the rules and remove PWTs from the game they would be in fact validating every single negative thing said about PWTs, and thus themselves as designers.

 

You're using the existence of dislike for turrets as evidence that dislike for turrets means people are being childish.  That's like when you ask a religious person for evidence of God and they say "the world is the evidence".  It's evidence that it exists, it not evidence one way or the other for what caused it.  So all we know is a lot of people don't like turrets. And the world exists.  Probably.

 

PWTs do not need to be removed from the game or revised into something else.  People need to learn how to deal with these them, just like people will have to learn how to deal with mobile arcs.  There is room in X-WIng for both mechanics, both playstyles.  To say otherwise is ridiculous by default.  X-Wing revisionism is a movement that needs to be stopped because it tells FFG we are willing to re-invest in the game.  We don't need to do that no matter how many toys you have or how many toys FFG could potentially sell. 

 

And now you're resorting simply to denigrating the opinions of people who disagree with you.  You like turrets, fine.  Other people think they spoil the game.  To suggest all those people are just being childish and they're simply people who haven't learnt to deal with them is arrogant, insulting and the most childish part of the whole debate.  It's your argument that's ridiculous.

Edited by mazz0

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...

not really

 

considering literally all the rules stay the same and we're affecting a very small portion of the game, an ESPECIALLY small portion if you count PWTs that you actually see competitively, it's not that huge an undertaking

 

really, it's more of an opportunity to rebalance horrible design decisions, including not only the PWT rule itself but some of the particularly useless additions to the game such as the ORS and non-dash yt-2400s

 

course that's just assuming we replace only PWTs with mobile arcs. Secondary turrets already come with restrictions

 

 

If PWT are such a "small portion of the game" then there is no need to make any changes to them.

 

Would Mobile Arcs make them better?  Perhaps in a few limited cases.  Would it make them worse.  In general, YES it would especially considering the cost in using that mobile arc.

 

If you want to kill the PWT perhaps they should do away with Boost and Barrel Roll as well.

 

 

pretty skippy that boost and broll are FAR larger parts of the game than the PWT

 

not to mention they're maneuver-based inputs, whereas PWT takes that out of the game in favor of dice

 

it's a lazy, ill-conceived mechanic and its relative rarity does not excuse that fact. If ffg can devote time to changing it, and if the mobile firing arc is in fact some kind of prototype for said change, then the game will be better for it

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