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Estarriol

Are the ships getting too obscure?

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And that goes back to FFG only supporting the "One True Format" of 100 point dogfights, which means that it's all anyone wants to play. Even MtG recognized alternate formats like EDH and cube within a relatively brief period and put out articles not only describing how they worked, but how WotC was using them - and released the Commander decks to support beginners getting into EDH.
 
Here? All FFG is driving is 100pt 6 rocks, 100pt 6 rocks, 100pt 6 rocks. It's... a little infuriating the more I have to deal with it. "Oh, no, I don't want to try that Aturi Heroes thing, I need to practice my PalpAces." "Oh, Epic sounds like fun, but... I'm afraid it'll put me off my regular game. And it'd take so loooong!" "Escalation league? Naw, I think that I've gotta keep practicing." "Armada? Well, actually, I sold my Armada stuff because it was distracting me from X-Wing."

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Here? All FFG is driving is 100pt 6 rocks, 100pt 6 rocks, 100pt 6 rocks.

 

Well there is Fly Casual on the main page...  They also release seasonal kits that have prize support that can be used in other formats.

 

Not sure how much more FFG can actually be expected to do.  

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And that goes back to FFG only supporting the "One True Format" of 100 point dogfights, which means that it's all anyone wants to play. Even MtG recognized alternate formats like EDH and cube within a relatively brief period and put out articles not only describing how they worked, but how WotC was using them - and released the Commander decks to support beginners getting into EDH.

 

Here? All FFG is driving is 100pt 6 rocks, 100pt 6 rocks, 100pt 6 rocks. It's... a little infuriating the more I have to deal with it. "Oh, no, I don't want to try that Aturi Heroes thing, I need to practice my PalpAces." "Oh, Epic sounds like fun, but... I'm afraid it'll put me off my regular game. And it'd take so loooong!" "Escalation league? Naw, I think that I've gotta keep practicing." "Armada? Well, actually, I sold my Armada stuff because it was distracting me from X-Wing."

 

Well, to take this even further down the 'Magic the Gathering' rabbit hole the debate between the 'tournament' player and the 'casual' player has been raging there for about 20 years with no sign of a ceasefire, exchange of hostages or any agreement from the two sides.

 

My take on it is simple:

 

FFG produce the game and support a 'tournament' format which means they have to try and provide a game that is balanced and also evolving.  The investment they make in doing that is returned in part by the publicity the high level tournaments generate which brings in new players.  They are a business and X-Wing has to be profitable for them to continue to produce it.  They have to strive to keep entry into the game easy and affordable so as not to strangle that supply of new players.

 

Now it's up to each individual what they want to do with the product they get from investing into the X-Wing experience.  They can chase the tournament circuit which involves a lot of time and money if you really want to be serious about competing.  They can build a cinematic experience with friends recreating parts from the cannon.  They can move some ships about for a laugh during a 'beer and pretzels' night once a week.  They can keep their product in the a safe as a dedicated Star Wars collector.  They can throw away everything but the model which they re-paint and put in a display cabinet.  They can do whatever they like.  Everyone has the right to enjoy whatever side of the hobby that appeals to them.

 

The problem comes when your enjoyment is based on interaction with another person.  You simply have to find people that share your take on the hobby.  A casual gamer knocking over his ships all the time and spilling beer on the play-mat is not going to be welcome in a group who want to recreate the trench run scene faithfully.  The tournament player who just wants to practice his list against a specific meta list is not going to be welcome at the 'beer and pretzels' night.  The avid collector will not understand the guy who repaints his ships for fun.  Still nobody is more right than anyone else but there will be friction.

 

The trick is not to try and change those people who have different perceptions and requirements from the game than you do.  The trick is to find people of a similar mind to start with.

 

To borrow a sports analogy that people from the some parts of the world might understand.

 

American Football, Rugby Union and Rugby League all look very similar to the non sports fan.  Teams of guys playing a game with roughly the same shaped ball and similar rules.  To the fans and players of those sports however they are worlds apart.  Some players have made the switch between them but not many.  Their fans may even appreciate the other games but will always prefer one above the other.  

 

Just because we all play X-wing please don't try and make us all play the same or elevate one sub-group above the others.  In games as in life some tolerance and respect is required for everyone to get along.

 

Well that turned into a soapbox rant I didn't expect!!!!!!

 

I'm off to play X-Wing.......

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Here? All FFG is driving is 100pt 6 rocks, 100pt 6 rocks, 100pt 6 rocks.

 

Well there is Fly Casual on the main page...  They also release seasonal kits that have prize support that can be used in other formats.

 

Not sure how much more FFG can actually be expected to do.

This. OK, so X-Wing has an extremely popular and very well supported competitive scene - but that is not the only way to play the game. There are the core and expansion box missions, the Epic and cinematic play games, if Mission Control saw more interest from players it might receive more support as well.

Then there's the "I Am Your Father('s Day)" events, which FFG is supporting and promise to be a more casual atmosphere.

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\

Like Paul mentioned earlier, it's not a price issue. Most miniatures games cost a comparative amount to X Wing, and some cost considerably more. The issue, IMO, is that X Wing markets itself as this easy to pick up, simple to get into game, but to get SERIOUS about X Wing is actually a really involved process that requires researching card effects and which cards come with which ships, tracking down cards on the secondary market, or buying lots of cross-faction ships. And as the range grows, so does the problem, which for a game in it's infancy is a real problem.

 

An interesting and shared concern.

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There are the core and expansion box missions, the Epic and cinematic play games, if Mission Control saw more interest from players it might receive more support as well.

That's my issue with comments like the one I quoted above...

Exactly what more is FFG supposed to do? Send brute squads into people's LGS and club anyone who doesn't play epic or the heroes campaign?

People will play the game the way they want to, if you can't find anyone to play Epic or Heroes or a mission, perhaps that's because they don't like playing that way. It's not because FFG has that brute squad I mentioned sitting there making people play that way.

 

FFG offers prize support for non-standard formats via the seasonal kits.  Those can be used how ever the LGS wants, and they're fairly cheap.  They include a ton of missions in the products that had room for them.  They created the mission control page for people to use... They have the 'I'm your father day' thing coming... Exactly what more should FFG do?

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There are the core and expansion box missions, the Epic and cinematic play games, if Mission Control saw more interest from players it might receive more support as well.

That's my issue with comments like the one I quoted above...

Exactly what more is FFG supposed to do? Send brute squads into people's LGS and club anyone who doesn't play epic or the heroes campaign?

People will play the game the way they want to, if you can't find anyone to play Epic or Heroes or a mission, perhaps that's because they don't like playing that way. It's not because FFG has that brute squad I mentioned sitting there making people play that way.

 

FFG offers prize support for non-standard formats via the seasonal kits.  Those can be used how ever the LGS wants, and they're fairly cheap.  They include a ton of missions in the products that had room for them.  They created the mission control page for people to use... They have the 'I'm your father day' thing coming... Exactly what more should FFG do?

 

 

Well one thing for sure for sure is that FFG should not try to make everyone happy because that IS impossible.

 

These Fantasy Flight Star Brothers & Sisters are doing things more right than wrong and the few wrongs can be fixed at home and EVERYTHING IS GOOD THEN.

:D

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Well one thing for sure for sure is that FFG should not try to make everyone happy because that IS impossible.

Yeah that's true. But here's the thing I find puzzling... Casual players by their very nature are unlikely to go to tournaments, especially things like Regionals many are unlikely to even go to a LGS to play.

 

Yet you see them come here and act as if FFG had that brute squad in LGS' enforcing a 'Play 100 point meta lists or get clubed' system.

 

So I ask people like iamfanboy exactly what it is that FFG should be doing... or perhaps not doing.  People like that either need to be able to answer the question or should IMO shut up.

 

I also get rather sick and tired of the 'us vs them' mentality that some people (and to be fair both casual and competitive players do this) try to instill in this community.  That somehow there's a single orthodox way to play the game and anyone who doesn't play that way is a heretic that should be... Well we all know what happens to heretics.

 

I seriously applaud and would gladly support efforts to grow more casual communities, and I've done so, I've put my money where my mouth is... I spent $25 or so and a couple hours to print out, cut and laminate the parts from HotAC so I could run it at my LGS.

 

But I get really tired of people who come here and demand someone else does the work for them.  If they want to see more non-meta games played, then they need to put some work into getting that to happen, rather than lazily complaining about how FFG isn't doing enough, when it's not FFG's place to do it in the first place.

 

FFG provides nearly everything a casual community actually needs other than forming the community itself, but again that's not FFG's responsibility and really not something they can do in the first place.

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No, and stop whining about that **** Gunboat. Bad ship idea from a bad game.

Dude what? I don't really like the Gunboat, not saying that i would mind it in the game, but saying TIE-Fighter was a bad game? I think video game history disagrees with you.

 

 

I have never played a good Star Wars video game. They might be good as Star Wars games are concerned but not overall.

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So I ask people like iamfanboy exactly what it is that FFG should be doing... or perhaps not doing.  People like that either need to be able to answer the question or should IMO shut up.

FFG IS doing things - now. "I Am Your Father" day is friggin' brilliant, for example... 

 

Unless, of course, some local players use it as an excuse to play 100pts 6 rocks instead of trying something even slightly different.

 

What should they be doing?

 

1) Introducing missions/scenarios to the tournament scene. Even something simple, like using the "Escort the Senator's Shuttle" from the core set, with a random roll determining who's attacking and who's defending, and making the shuttle itself worth say 50 points instead of being instant win/lose.

 

2) Putting out a seasonal kit for an Escalation-style game - not prizes, but an organized format that has an end-game where people can post their lists, share lists, and possibly have a regional-style event where the overall winners of each store bring their Escalation lists for a match.

 

3) An official regional of either Epic or Team Epic - Team Epic would be fun, where the rules are changed slightly to "Bring 200 points and be paired randomly with someone. Duplicates don't matter - just add an extra consonant to their names!"

 

4) Purchasing the Heroes of the Aturi Cluster - or releasing something similar of their own design - for co-operative and cinematic play, so that we have other reasons to buy more ships and have fun with friends in a friendlier atmosphere than cutthroat competition.

 

Instead, what do we get? "Vote which terrible ship that players will be stuck using in our upcoming tournament!" Feh.

 

 

I have never played a good Star Wars video game. They might be good as Star Wars games are concerned but not overall.

No, the X-Wing and TIE Fighter games are actually fun NOW - never played one until last week, but gog.com had them so I tried one and man... it's actually a solid game.

 

Also, Knights of the Old Republic wonders why you don't like it?

 

The SNES Star Wars games are just.... pinnacles of side-scroller action.

 

I'm ashamed to admit it, but I did enjoy and play a lot of the N64 Pod Racer game with my friends back in the day.

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1) Introducing missions/scenarios to the tournament scene.

Those quite simply don't work in a tournament setting.

 

2) Putting out a seasonal kit for an Escalation-style game

That's something your LGS should be doing, not FFG.

 

3) An official regional of either Epic or Team Epic

That I'd like to see, some sort of official support for an epic tournament. Of course that means more competitive games are being played.

 

4) Purchasing the Heroes of the Aturi Cluster - or releasing something similar of their own design

I'd like to see that, but there may be all sorts of issues we can't see, like cost or licencing issues.

Edited by VanorDM

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You guys are too smart for me; I know not the debate of the last, like 20 posts....but, fun read, kinda?

 

Anyway, I like the diversity of ships even though I'm and old-school honk (cause I'm old). My nephews tell me all about the Rebels TV show and newer non-movie stuff like that. However, I'm just going to say, the Rebel ship Ghost is clunky looking and painted ugly (in my humble opinion) so I'll probably pass (oh, and the tail-gun-ship-thingy is too powerful and kinda seems like a fix or something and actually included so it'll sell):

swx39_ghost_plastic_right.png

But the new Rebels large ship (that I also know nothing about) that's called a shadow-caster I think, looks cool and is painted well (again, in a nobody important opinion kinda way):

swx32-36_titleimage.png

...and I have one of all of the small ships as they're easy to store, easy to fly and fun (mostly all cool looking too)

Edited by clanofwolves

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(oh, and the tail-gun-ship-thingy is too powerful and kinda seems like a fix or something and actually included so it'll sell):

 

I get the feeling you don't actually understand how it works if you think that.

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No, and stop whining about that **** Gunboat. Bad ship idea from a bad game.

Dude what? I don't really like the Gunboat, not saying that i would mind it in the game, but saying TIE-Fighter was a bad game? I think video game history disagrees with you.

 

 

I have never played a good Star Wars video game. They might be good as Star Wars games are concerned but not overall.

 

 

I disagree.  I thought the X-Wing series of games was much better done than other flight simulators I played around the same era, and they had pretty good storylines, too.

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So you do in fact oppose content based on source then.

I don't. For me, old or new is fine. I have more faith in the intelligence of fans to recognise and want something new even if they don't immediately recognise it. So long as its new and original. Therefore I am actually fine with new content from Rebels. The problem is an arbitrary barrier that prevents any content if it doesn't pass the "cameo on Rebels/new films" threshold. In other words, blind bondage to canon.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point but the arbitrary comment that things have to appear on Rebels to be put into SWG only casts the shadow you mention if it's true.  Just because someone said "it's in the background of rebels and THAT'S why it's included' doesn't make it so.  There is no evidence that this even remotely had a bearing on FFG releasing the ARC-170 (if there is, citation needed) and frankly, if the criteria was 'must be in Rebels or' then they would have said something like "as seen in the hanger bay on Rebels, the ARC-170..."

 

Again, maybe I'm missing something but your argument seems to be predicated on a false equivalency about Rebels being the filter.

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No, and stop whining about that **** Gunboat. Bad ship idea from a bad game.

Dude what? I don't really like the Gunboat, not saying that i would mind it in the game, but saying TIE-Fighter was a bad game? I think video game history disagrees with you.
this!

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1) Introducing missions/scenarios to the tournament scene.

Those quite simply don't work in a tournament setting.

 

2) Putting out a seasonal kit for an Escalation-style game

That's something your LGS should be doing, not FFG.

 

3) An official regional of either Epic or Team Epic

That I'd like to see, some sort of official support for an epic tournament. Of course that means more competitive games are being played.

 

4) Purchasing the Heroes of the Aturi Cluster - or releasing something similar of their own design

I'd like to see that, but there may be all sorts of issues we can't see, like cost or licencing issues.

 

Have you played any other wargames? At all?

 

Every single one of them includes scenarios as part of the standard tournament fare. Except X-Wing. Even Star Wars ARMADA does it.

 

Don't tell me 'they simply don't work' because decades of wargaming expertise proves that's a false statement AND this guy did it - all it takes is a bit of, ya know, game design to make them balanced?

 

Frankly the scenarios in the pamphlets are a disaster IMHO - had they been created to some sort of standard while still adhering to the idea of introducing new fluff and ideas, they could be usable by an official event rather than just being, "Hay gaiz, want to get shot at by my Ruthlessness Decimator?"

 

Putting out a seasonal kit for an Escalation game would be standardizing it so that everyone knows HOW to do it - and showing that FFG can actually back up the talk of 'let's do something different you guys'.

 

 

And the reasoning behind not buying HoAtC is pretty clear - it would set a precedent of encouraging fan-created content and that is NOT what they want right now. We've all heard the rants about how FFG doesn't want to pay the proper prices for experienced game designers, instead preferring to offer them the 'intangible benefits of working on a valued IP like Star Wars' - whether it's true or not, it IS true that most companies don't want to encourage fan-created content.

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Here? All FFG is driving is 100pt 6 rocks, 100pt 6 rocks, 100pt 6 rocks.

 

Well there is Fly Casual on the main page...  They also release seasonal kits that have prize support that can be used in other formats.

 

Not sure how much more FFG can actually be expected to do.

 

This. OK, so X-Wing has an extremely popular and very well supported competitive scene - but that is not the only way to play the game. There are the core and expansion box missions, the Epic and cinematic play games, if Mission Control saw more interest from players it might receive more support as well.

Then there's the "I Am Your Father('s Day)" events, which FFG is supporting and promise to be a more casual atmosphere.

 

Well, as an example my mailman recently delivered my copy of The Age of the Wolf for SAGA, Kings of War has the Destiny of Kings book, and both 40K and the old WHFB have a range of campaign supplements. Tournaments for EVERY OTHER miniatures game I can think of feature scenarios and objectives. And most tournaments come in a range of sizes.

 

40K is a great example in my opinion, because the gap between competitive and casual games in 40K is almost purely about attitude. A competitive game might feature any scenario from the rulebook, or a custom scenario made for a specific event, and could be played at any points value, although the values tend to range from 1,000 to 2,000. Similarly, a casual game could feature any scenario and any points value.

 

But the delineation between the two groups in X Wing is much sharper. If you're playing with ANYTHING other than 100 points, using ANY scenario or objective other than 'kill the other guy' or using other than exactly 6 of the approved obstacles, then you're not playing competitively.

 

So what FFG can be doing is two-fold. The most important change IMO is to change the tournament format. Enourgage organisers run events at any points value they like, include a selection of official scenarios and objectives which, despite your protestations, will work just fine in X Wing, and allow tournament organisers to create and implement their own scenarios as well. Having one format to rule them all is boring and stale and creates a sharp, unhealthy division between competitive and casual players.

 

The second thing FFG can do is start to publish casual-only expansions, like the Destiny of Kings and Age of the Wolf books, that promote casual play. The 'fly casual' article was a good start, but it's meaningless without actual support and content to promote the idea. How awesome would a campaign box be if it came with some rules for pilot progression, a fistful of unique storyline missions, some new pilots and some of the ships featured in the campaign. We could have one or two a year, each featuring either new ships or revisiting old ones, including new upgrades and pilots and giving us new ways to play the game every time. It would be AWESOME.

Edited by Chucknuckle

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Regarding the tournament scenarios, if I recall correctly, the original designers and developers thought missions would be one of the keys to the success of the game. They thought people would eventually get bored of the 100-point dogfight and so they made sure we had access to scenarios. But contrary to their belief, people (in general) are not getting tired of the 100-point dogfight. Rather, tournament sizes are growing astronomically! I'm not surprised there isn't much support for scenario-driven tournaments. All evidence indicates that there isn't a need for that.

 

But I am completely, 100% grateful for the scenarios we do have and I hope they will continue to develop them and put more time into their balance.

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So you do in fact oppose content based on source then.

I don't. For me, old or new is fine. I have more faith in the intelligence of fans to recognise and want something new even if they don't immediately recognise it. So long as its new and original. Therefore I am actually fine with new content from Rebels. The problem is an arbitrary barrier that prevents any content if it doesn't pass the "cameo on Rebels/new films" threshold. In other words, blind bondage to canon.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point but the arbitrary comment that things have to appear on Rebels to be put into SWG only casts the shadow you mention if it's true.  Just because someone said "it's in the background of rebels and THAT'S why it's included' doesn't make it so.  There is no evidence that this even remotely had a bearing on FFG releasing the ARC-170 (if there is, citation needed) and frankly, if the criteria was 'must be in Rebels or' then they would have said something like "as seen in the hanger bay on Rebels, the ARC-170..."

 

Again, maybe I'm missing something but your argument seems to be predicated on a false equivalency about Rebels being the filter.

 

 

Kick his ass Bo Bo Jangs!

 

The situation is simple; if it is in new cannon then it may become a part of this game universe too.

 

PERIOD... unless C-DOGG likes it and pushes it on us (like Dat K-WING Monster!) Further more and in conclusion; he don't like dat-gad-dam-gunboat-mutt... by the ways most of us don't like it!

:lol:  :D  :P

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Regarding the tournament scenarios, if I recall correctly, the original designers and developers thought missions would be one of the keys to the success of the game. They thought people would eventually get bored of the 100-point dogfight and so they made sure we had access to scenarios. But contrary to their belief, people (in general) are not getting tired of the 100-point dogfight. Rather, tournament sizes are growing astronomically! I'm not surprised there isn't much support for scenario-driven tournaments. All evidence indicates that there isn't a need for that.

 

But I am completely, 100% grateful for the scenarios we do have and I hope they will continue to develop them and put more time into their balance.

I am absolutely certain that this is a direct result of FFG promoting the 100/6 format as the standard way to play. Notably, every other miniatures game I can think of states that the standard way to play the game includes either blind or random scenarios/objectives. 40K, WHFB, Kings of War, Warmachine (I think? Been a LONG time since I played!) Armada, SAGA, all have scenarios as part of the core 'standard game' rules. X Wing does not.

It's instructive that WHFB during 5th edition had no scenarios in the standard play format. You just lined up on the opposite side of the table and duked it out with your opponent, much like X Wing. And tournaments usually reflected this. Then in 6th edition rolling for a random scenario after list building, but prior to deployment became part of the standard play rules, and the game changed forever.

Which is why it's vital that it's FFG, not the player base, that pushes for a deconstruction of the tournament format. People are compelled to follow the rules and not deviate from the standard, normal way to play so until FFG explicitly states that the normal, standard way to play includes random or blind objectives and a variety of points values, then you won't see those things appear.

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Interesting how some think that all "wargames" have scenarios as part of their tournament play.  I guess that if you go and look at the WotC skirmish games you're going to say that having places to earn victory points without killing enemies made them "scenarios" although to me the primary objective of those games always had been to kill all of your opponents.  Now how could that translate to X-Wing?  I guess it would be that if you have a ship within R1 of the center of the board at the end of each round you would get some number of points; how many points and how would that change things is up to you.

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