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Estarriol

Are the ships getting too obscure?

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theres more than just the trilogy to the starwars universe.

afaik there isnt a single ship in this game that doesnt exist in the movies or series.

Oh but there is...the raider.

It was designed from scratch just specifically for this game.

And it's GLORIOUS.

If only there was more ' in house' design going on.

The raider is so effing good. It feels star wars.

Ghost....jump master...this...shadow slapper thing....ties with more or less wing panels...gun boats...

Sure..they are star wars. They just don't FEEL star wars.

The people mAking star wars stuff these days aren't as good as whoever did the raider.

And I blame palob godahli for approving all this junk over the years. ;p

 

 

The Raider is glorious, on that we agree.

 

Maybe the animated ships aren't quite greebled enough? Hear me out.

 

A classic Star Wars ship, in my opinion, is built along the same aesthetic line as a beater car. Starships are expensive, rugged, and designed to last as consumers won't buy a ship with even a 1% chance of atmospheric decompression.

 

Because of this, the majority of civilian starships in Star Wars are bought used. Patched. Fixed and refixed. This wear and repair shows on the exterior in greebles, rust, and non-standard add-ons.

 

In Rebels and TCW, the computer models are cartoonized and simplified as an aesthetic choice. Within the confines of the medium, the ships look rusted, functional and grungy. The problem I think, is that when the ships are translated back into a realistic format the lack of greebles and textured wear makes them appear sleeker and more "techy" than their film counterparts.

 

Plausible, no?  ^_^

 

I don't like the Raider, it's especially strange to hear praises directed at it by a person who in the same post complains about "ties with more or less wing panels". It's a smaller Star Destroyer with TIE Interceptor wing panels. Almost identical to every Imperial starship ever. But with goddamn TIE panels.

 

Also, there is no Star Wars aesthetics. Simple as that, the "Star Wars feel" is extremely personal factor, because even in the original trilogy ship designs are all over the place, just compare TIE Fighters to X-wings. It's like a totally different universe, you can't draw any conclusion whatsoever about any rules regarding ship design in the galaxy far far away by looking at those two ships.. any two ships, really, unless you compare two TIEs. And if you look up their performace it only gets worse. 

 

Greebles sometimes are present and sometimes not. A-wing is like a shiny race car, hell, even X-wing is pretty sleek. TIEs are very clean and simple in shape. Just like the Lambda, Sentinel, Star Wing...

Civilian ships? Well, we've seen how many in the OT? I might have missed something but I think one, and it's certainly NOT how your standard freighter looks like, considering Luke's disgust at its sight.

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TL;DR

 

When it comes to "obscure" that is entirely how you look at things.  I may not recognize many of these ships showing up that are coming off of the Rebel's TV show but that's because I can't watch the and have never had a chance to see them in any other form.  Many of the other ships I've at least heard of because they have history going back many years in various video games and in books and other products.  This thing about those is that to some kid just getting into Star Wars those things like the TIE Defender, HWK, and E-Wing are probably as obscure as many of these ships coming off of the Rebels TV show.

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Read up.

 

 

ALL of Star Wars was designed for children. Lucas said that himself. It's a great family movie, but there's a reason it has been merchandised to death. Certainly some of the later stuff is to appeal to adults, but the films are aimed at children. All the new fans coming to the franchise will be the children to the adults who were children when it came out in the 70's. Heck, it's 50 years old now - most people who are fans from when it first came out where children when it first appealed to them.

... 

 

 

When did I age another 10 years?  Last time I checked 2016 - 1977 is only 39 year ago.  Give those who first saw Star Wars when it came out in the theater a couple years and it's not too hard to squeeze two more generations of kids under the kids who saw Star Wars when it first came out.

 

The glorious Star Wars resurgence we saw in the 90's may rate very high on some of our memories but is before a lot of other fans were even born.

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I don't like the Raider, it's especially strange to hear praises directed at it by a person who in the same post complains about "ties with more or less wing panels". It's a smaller Star Destroyer with TIE Interceptor wing panels. Almost identical to every Imperial starship ever. But with goddamn TIE panels.

 

Also, there is no Star Wars aesthetics. Simple as that, the "Star Wars feel" is extremely personal factor, because even in the original trilogy ship designs are all over the place, just compare TIE Fighters to X-wings. It's like a totally different universe, you can't draw any conclusion whatsoever about any rules regarding ship design in the galaxy far far away by looking at those two ships.. any two ships, really, unless you compare two TIEs. And if you look up their performace it only gets worse. 

 

Greebles sometimes are present and sometimes not. A-wing is like a shiny race car, hell, even X-wing is pretty sleek. TIEs are very clean and simple in shape. Just like the Lambda, Sentinel, Star Wing...

Civilian ships? Well, we've seen how many in the OT? I might have missed something but I think one, and it's certainly NOT how your standard freighter looks like, considering Luke's disgust at its sight.

 

 

1. I feel the panels are justified (I've argued TIEs before), and because of that I also feel that they help designers make Imperial-styled ships. I can understand not liking triangles or black panels on all of the ships - for me it's like a uniform for the ships, and Imperials love uniformed legions; for others it might be repetitive and dehumanizing compared to the varied designs of the Rebels and Scum. (Which I think is the point.) 

 

2.200.gif

 

3. I

 

 A-wing_DICE.png

 

SENSE

 

TIE_Fighter_DICE.png

 

GREEBLES.

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Read up.

 

 

ALL of Star Wars was designed for children. Lucas said that himself. It's a great family movie, but there's a reason it has been merchandised to death. Certainly some of the later stuff is to appeal to adults, but the films are aimed at children. All the new fans coming to the franchise will be the children to the adults who were children when it came out in the 70's. Heck, it's 50 years old now - most people who are fans from when it first came out where children when it first appealed to them.

... 

 

 

When did I age another 10 years?  Last time I checked 2016 - 1977 is only 39 year ago.  Give those who first saw Star Wars when it came out in the theater a couple years and it's not too hard to squeeze two more generations of kids under the kids who saw Star Wars when it first came out.

 

The glorious Star Wars resurgence we saw in the 90's may rate very high on some of our memories but is before a lot of other fans were even born.

 

Apologies, 40 years old. But my point remains that most people saw Star Wars as children, and there's nothing wrong with that.

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There's so much of it, it's hard to tell when people are serious or not. But thanks Doc, I'll tell my therapist.

  

A) some of your recent posts suggest otherwise. Naturally I find this confusing.

B) some sources are more valid; I don't deny that this spectrum exists. But to block out less valid sources altogether is another matter.

 

A) Which ones? Sure, ban the gunboat, but that's because of people, not the gunboat itself. The T-Wing for example, came from X-Wing Vs Tie Fighter, let's have that. The Outrider is from Shadows of the Empire, one of my favourite Star Wars Games.

 

B) Again, if you learn to read, you'll see I didn't say to block any sources. We actually agree that some sourrs are more valid than others. Which is exactly what I said.

Wow arent those responses quite a bit mean on a fourm over a game that we all agree that we all love.

As for the 20 year old TIE FIGHTER vidoe game people on these forums played it, maybe just as muh as there are people that watch Rebels, and just again as many that read EVERY book of the EU, and or all the comics. But there are just as likely as many people that are only fans of one set of those things, or even just the now 7 movies.

But we all should want almost every ship in Star Wars to be in this game, since we are fans of the genre..even if we do not want a specific ship. -

I absolutely DESPISE that they made the TIE Punisher [aka-Interdctor Tie- which wasnt even really a starfighter in that game] but they did, and perhaps there are people that like it, same with those that like space bananas (I like the chrome on it, but not so much the ship itself- but hey it might add something cool to those that do like it. Or at the very least add some cool cards or piltos we want to see, or even interesting pilot abilities.

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I'm sorry to be a Star Wars fan for over 30 years... now some seconds in a TV show for children worth much more than decades of books, comics and excellent games.

Those books, comics and games were created with no restraint and no oversight. Some things were great, some things were awful, but due to a lack of 'official' content FFG regurgitated them into this game regardless.

Honestly, why do people object to new content?  How is new ships to fly a "stain"?  Why is adding more ships a bad thing?

Because it dilutes the brand and increases the barrier of entry.

Already practically every ship has some kind of mandatory upgrade, with more to come, almost NEVER found in the pack the ship came with and sometimes not even found on a ship in the same FACTION. Constantly adding more ships simply to boost FFGs profits is not good for the game. We don't try to keep adding new units to Chess, or inventing units for 'true' historical wargames. After a while, the game loses the inherent simplicity and the Star Wars vibe that made it attractive in the first place. Basically, if someone considers themselves a Star Wars fan, and they can walk past an X Wing table and see nothing but ships and pilots they've never heard of, then FFG has gone too far.

It's less likely to happen, now that we've got new movies and shows coming out, but like I said there was that dark time, between exhausting the OT and prior to the new movies and shows, where things got pretty grim.

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Stain on our history? It was the best time of X-Wing Miniatures Game. 

 

I'm sorry to be a Star Wars fan for over 30 years... now some seconds in a TV show for children worth much more than decades of books, comics and excellent games.

 

 

This kind of snobbery is the worst. Rebels is a thing - why is it worth less than ships which make a brief appearance in some other media? I've been a fan for Star Wars for 20 years - never heard of a kihraxz or a K-Wing before I started playing this game. 

 

 

I think the TIE Punisher is the only ship so far that I haven't recognized.

 

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...

When did I age another 10 years?  Last time I checked 2016 - 1977 is only 39 year ago.  Give those who first saw Star Wars when it came out in the theater a couple years and it's not too hard to squeeze two more generations of kids under the kids who saw Star Wars when it first came out.

...

 

Apologies, 40 years old. But my point remains that most people saw Star Wars as children, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

 

No real worries.  It's just that when you're born in that pre-Star Wars era you really don't need another 10 years added on.  In another decade the divide between what people consider obscure will probably grow even wider unless the people who are doing SW now actually do mine that wealth of information.

 

It may just be me but I'm not so sure I see the point in reinventing the wheel just because you can when what you have should already work just fine.

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Honestly, why do people object to new content?  How is new ships to fly a "stain"?  Why is adding more ships a bad thing?

Because it dilutes the brand and increases the barrier of entry.

Already practically every ship has some kind of mandatory upgrade, with more to come, almost NEVER found in the pack the ship came with and sometimes not even found on a ship in the same FACTION. Constantly adding more ships simply to boost FFGs profits is not good for the game. We don't try to keep adding new units to Chess, or inventing units for 'true' historical wargames. After a while, the game loses the inherent simplicity and the Star Wars vibe that made it attractive in the first place. Basically, if someone considers themselves a Star Wars fan, and they can walk past an X Wing table and see nothing but ships and pilots they've never heard of, then FFG has gone too far.

It's less likely to happen, now that we've got new movies and shows coming out, but like I said there was that dark time, between exhausting the OT and prior to the new movies and shows, where things got pretty grim.

 

 

Wow, so many questions:

 

How do you figure that it dilutes the brand?  Surely, rehashing the same design (TIE Fighter) is a far bigger dilution of branding?  A bit like how eating your favourite food for every meal for a week would prove boring.  Conceptually, spamming TIE Fighter designs or Xwing designs is a bit like making every USS Enterprise and Starfleet ship a Constitution Class because it's the iconic thing.

 

With content inevitably comes a higher barrier to entry.  How would FFG make money otherwise?  And how is FFG making a profit not good for the game?  How will they pay for R&D, updates, tournament organisation, logistics, etc.  Would it be better if FFG let the game die?

 

What game hasn't lost its simplicity as it expanded?  Magic the Gathering started as a simple enough affair.  Now the ruleset is as thick as a technical manual. 

 

Again, as with someone else, how is seeing a new ship that a fan has never heard of a bad thing?  You're assuming that all fans won't have the intellectual curiosity to find out what ship is being fielded.  How many people played TIE Fighter or Jedi Knight I?  Yet how many people enjoy using both figures?

 

Historical wargames is a pretty good comparison in support of my above point.  Putting in units that are less known to people ensures that they discover new units from timeframes alien to them and/or have greater diversity on the table.  How is that a bad thing? 

Edited by Xerandar

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Stain on our history? It was the best time of X-Wing Miniatures Game. 

 

I'm sorry to be a Star Wars fan for over 30 years... now some seconds in a TV show for children worth much more than decades of books, comics and excellent games.

 

 

This kind of snobbery is the worst. Rebels is a thing - why is it worth less than ships which make a brief appearance in some other media? I've been a fan for Star Wars for 20 years - never heard of a kihraxz or a K-Wing before I started playing this game. 

 

 

I think the TIE Punisher is the only ship so far that I haven't recognized.

 

 

Looks like someone needs to play Star Wars:  Galactic Battlegrounds!

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...

When did I age another 10 years?  Last time I checked 2016 - 1977 is only 39 year ago.  Give those who first saw Star Wars when it came out in the theater a couple years and it's not too hard to squeeze two more generations of kids under the kids who saw Star Wars when it first came out.

...

 

Apologies, 40 years old. But my point remains that most people saw Star Wars as children, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

 

No real worries.  It's just that when you're born in that pre-Star Wars era you really don't need another 10 years added on.  In another decade the divide between what people consider obscure will probably grow even wider unless the people who are doing SW now actually do mine that wealth of information.

 

It may just be me but I'm not so sure I see the point in reinventing the wheel just because you can when what you have should already work just fine.

 

 

It's an unfortunate fact of life that things which remain idle tend to die off and I think this the reason that we keep re-inventing the when when it comes to Star Wars.

 

There are many wonderful and entertaining franchises that have died off when the original consumer base has gotten older/lost interest/is strapped for time. Star Wars has had the good fortune of having a story that is approachable from all ages and a setting that anyone can get into. It is because kids, adults, and older people can all get into it together that the franchise has been and may continue to be as enduring as it is. 

 

When you're young, you go for the Droids and Laser Swords.  :rolleyes:

 

When you're in your teens, you identify with the Rebels.  :angry:

 

When you're grown, you can appreciate the emotions and subtleties between characters.  ;)

 

When you're older, you can step out of this tiresome oh-so-real world and spend an hour in a galaxy far, far away.  ^_^

 

When you're very old, you root for the Emperor to psych out your grandkids.  :P  

 

 

(And even if you don't like interacting with people out of your age group there are now several Star Wars side-stories and splinters that cater to specific ages.)

Edited by OneKelvin

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Man, that ship pissed me off in Battlegrounds as well.  We had the TIE Scimitar* at that point but they went ahead with "adding more modules to the TIE Bomber"

 

*I am fully aware of how ridiculous the TIE Scimitar looks.

 

I didn't think the TIE Punisher went far enough.  They should have made a "fighter" the size of the Tantive IV consisting of nothing but munitions pods attached together, a single cockpit, and two bent solar panel wings.

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Man, that ship pissed me off in Battlegrounds as well.  We had the TIE Scimitar* at that point but they went ahead with "adding more modules to the TIE Bomber"

 

*I am fully aware of how ridiculous the TIE Scimitar looks.

 

Punisher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scimitar

 

The Scimitar's design is a major cock-up with special emphasis on the cock part.

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Man, that ship pissed me off in Battlegrounds as well.  We had the TIE Scimitar* at that point but they went ahead with "adding more modules to the TIE Bomber"

 

*I am fully aware of how ridiculous the TIE Scimitar looks.

 

Punisher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scimitar

 

The Scimitar's design is a major cock-up with special emphasis on the cock part.

 

 

Looking up the Scimitar, it says it was in The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, which surprised me, because I read that book all the time and have no memory of that ship!  Could my memory really be that bad?

 

...then I looked at the ship again, and realized I probably just repressed the memory.

Edited by JJ48

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I'll never understand the argument of "That doesn't FEEL very star wars"

 

since it's always some objective anecdote on what IS star wars.

 

This is real Shakespeare... and it feels like it.

 

 

Same for OT compared to PT... not the same feel. LOTR awesome Hobbit not so awesome and it did not feel right either.

 

You either get it or you learn to later or it never comes to you...

:)

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I think the Gunboat is a casualty when the EU got nuked superlasered hypersolarblastedorwhateveryoucallitbystarkillerbase by Disney with the TFA. The refugees that made it into X-wing (HWK-290 YT-2400, E-wing, K-wing, TIE Defender, TIE Interdictor now Punisher, ect) are all you are going to see of the old EU to include the X-wing series unless Disney puts them in one of their shows which is unlikely.  

Edited by Marinealver

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Wow, so many questions:

:D

 

How do you figure that it dilutes the brand?  Surely, rehashing the same design (TIE Fighter) is a far bigger dilution of branding?  A bit like how eating your favourite food for every meal for a week would prove boring.  Conceptually, spamming TIE Fighter designs or Xwing designs is a bit like making every USS Enterprise and Starfleet ship a Constitution Class because it's the iconic thing.

Dilution of brand works off the guiding principle that "if everything is X, then nothing is." So for Star Wars, if the ships stop being instantly recognisable as Star Wars, then the brand is diluted. If all ships are Star Wars, then none are. So it's like the opposite of what you said. A TIE variant is always recognisable as a TIE, so sticking to TIE variants preserves the purity of the brand. It's why there's a whole design team that work on making new ships to add to the Star Wars universe. And some of them are great, and some of them aren't, but most of the ones that aren't are the ones that are a product of a single person or a much smaller team. IE, the ships that appeared in novels or comics and sometimes in games. K Wing, E Wing, Starviper, I'm looking at you!

With content inevitably comes a higher barrier to entry.

Not necessarily. If things are balanced correctly in the first place, and don't require extensive synergy from multiple releases, then any new player can pick up a handful of ships and not be at a (significant) disadvantage to any other player. The library of upgrades is growing very quickly, and a new player looking at that library (and realising in many cases they'll need multiple copies of identical cards, WTF?) can be turned off. Especially when they see 'obscure' ships all over the tables and no iconic Star Wars ships, because the brand has been too diluted! They see no Star Wars ships, a large barrier to entry, and they turn away. And FFG loses a customer.

What game hasn't lost its simplicity as it expanded?  Magic the Gathering started as a simple enough affair.  Now the ruleset is as thick as a technical manual.

SAGA and Kings of War, off the top of my head. Both 'true' wargames, with exponentially more factions than X Wing who have also been in production for longer.

Again, as with someone else, how is seeing a new ship that a fan has never heard of a bad thing?  You're assuming that all fans won't have the intellectual curiosity to find out what ship is being fielded.  How many people played TIE Fighter or Jedi Knight I?  Yet how many people enjoy using both figures?

Because it's off putting to Star Wars fans to see a Star Wars games full of ships they don't recognise.

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You are really twisting things to make it more about the ships than the sales model in general. Most of those are applicable to one of the mature LCGs. And who is to say that the EU ships can't be a draw? Each person has a different level of connection to each ship. Luckily, no matter how much you feel that the "fit" Star Wars, FFG makes them a beautiful model. 

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And who is to say that the EU ships can't be a draw? Each person has a different level of connection to each ship.

Sure, some of those EU ships might be the thing to draw in a player. It's pretty unlikely, compared to seeing X Wings and TIE fighters duking it out, but I guess it's possible.

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