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markcsoul

Are firesprays lacking compared to the other large ships?

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I've tried to find a way to intergeated an Imperial firespray (mainly as I want to get the shapeways escort shuttles to use as one with the rear arc) but I have not been able to really find a list that it works in for me.  What is a good build for an Imp FS31?

Edited by Salted Diamond

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Why is Fett supposed to be a great pilot? What's being a great pilot have to do with hunting bounties? No doubt Boba would toast Dengar and any other chump in a street fight. I doubt any of them would even see him coming. The only reason he got slapped around at the Pit by a blind dude was because he was trying to take care of the real threat, Luke. Even in ESB he was gunning for the kid, because he hated the Jedi.

I would say PS 8 is pretty generous for some clone of the great Jhango Fett. Boba, you didn't even deserve to get decapitated by the likes of a BAMF Jedi like your daddy.

Oh and Cad Bane was still far more bad ass than either Fett. Better give him PS 14 when he shows up.

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Imo firespray are severely lacking

Especially boba fett.

I think ffg really missed the mark on him

This is suppose to be the most feared bounty hunter in the Galaxy

Even Dengar know better than to cross fett

Dengar values his life.

It bugs me that Dengar is a ps 9 while boba is an 8

Boba has been flying the firespray since he was a boy.

He has the thing kitted all out in his own specialty.

His pilot ability is not near as good as the new bounty hunters, which again tells me ffg really missed their mark.

Also the firespray is also an option for the empire to use in this game

While some will argue it should be scum only, let's not ignore the fact that it is an option for the imperial and considering all the options out there it is well below par.

As of now its at the bottom of the list

Just above bombers and maybe on par with defenders

The pilot abilities suck.

Kath requires a negative effect imo to work (cancel out crits) and boba is very situational

His ability should be more on par with Dengar

Really I think ffg got it backwards.

As been pointed out the firespray should bear little cheaper

I believe it should have the sensor slot.

After all boba fett has customized the crap out of it.

The titles are not that great.

Especially the slave 1.

The slave 1 title should have allowed the sensor upgrades, not Torpedoes.

Torpedoes should have just been second nature.

A upgrades that allows it to get a free evade when target locking, or focus or something may help it.

Other than a very small few who may have done well with it, I don't think that is enough to say it is competitive

While it's rear arc is nice, you have to fly away in order to make use of it, making having a Cannon hard to use, plus it's big base means your moving faster so you'll either have to kturn or do fly bys which then take you away from combat, and can leave your side open for out of arc shots on you.

It's two evade dice and 4 shields is not good

With the ships that are out now, one round of focus fire leaves one third of your squad to dust.

Boba being PS 8 seems right, Luke is 8 and he has been flying stuff his whole life and has the force.

And Fett's Imperial pilot ability isn't as good as his Scum one because his heart just isn't into it when he's working for the 'man', especially when he is told 'no disintegrations'. Same reason crew boba is scum only. He's more effective working for himself or the criminal element.

Oh and if you are complaining about the Firespray how about actually flying the thing. It's fun, and different from everything else.

Seriously?

I've flown the thing a lot.

I've done very well with it

Duel firespray lists, firespray teamed with Phantom, mini swarm, etc

So you think the firespray is ok where is at?

I've got plenty enough experience with it and have enjoyed it.

Thing is, as I said, for its costs and for what it brings there are better options.

(Imperial anyway which most of my concern is)

As for your suggestions, I don't think ffg was thinking back in wave 2 let's make boba ability sub par because his heart isn't in it

You hear yourself?

All fett cares about is credits. I highly doubt a character such as him would only do his half best.

Plus why is Dengar pilot ability much better?

His ability is better than both versions of fett.

Fett scum variation is only good in range 1 and if he gets swarmed by a swarm that won'tsave him

Even then his Scum ability is not as good as Dengar or zukass for that matter

Getting a reroll for each ship at range 1 is not that great.

Get 3-4 ships at range one and he's toast anyway. Good for his attack, still not good for only two evades

He won't stand a chance against a crackshot swarm

I never said the ship was not fun.

I've had lots of fun with it, but that still doesn't mean it's not in a good standing right now.

If you think so then Good for you, but so far the results we've seen from store championship and regional would disagree with you

I'm just pointing out the obvious

Dengar ability is better than both Fett's version

Getting a second attack is much better than his Scum or Imperial version.

The firespray two evade dice melts it pretty fast with focus fire

Two bad rolls and that's usually well over half your hp.

Not a lot of green maneuvers, so getting stressed makes you very predictable

Having the evade action is nice, but leaves you with no modifiers for attack

Kallus is an option for Imperial firespray, but again 4+ ship builds he loses a lot of his strength.

The cost of the firespray is going to be near impossible to compete when you have the new defenders hit the table.

Kath Imperial ability is not good as I said, it requires a negative effect to happen.

Imo I'd rather not have you cancel out my crit. It's a bit of insurance, but I'm not going to revolve a build around something the require a negative effect to happen imo.

A 1 turn would really be nice on the firespray, especially with the rear arc.

Arc dodgers such as Fel Vader, jax have no problem getting into a firespray blind spot and I've torn them to pieced more times than I can count using high PS arc dodgers.

There's a reason why we don't see a lot of firespray in top spots.

Just because maybe 2-3 people have managed to take them far, imo does not make them good.

I'm really hoping for some firespray lovin down the road

Really disappointed with Fett's ability.

Even when I was new to the game during wave 3 I never thought his ability was anything great, and since then it's gotten worse in comparison to other pilots who are suppose to be scared of fett

Sorry you got so butt hurt over which scummy pilots got higher PS. And that you were a fan of those crappy EU stories.

I would say the Firespray is average with average to below average pilots. The only reason why that's not 'good enough' is that there's other ships and pilots what are way above average when it comes to repositioning or being able to leverage their pilot abilities as force multipliers or point fortresses.

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Rofl your an idiot if you really think id be butt hurt over something that involves flying plastic spaceships with made up characters

I'm just stating the obvious.

Something apparently your oblivious to

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From wave 2 on I pretty much tried to put a firespray in every list for about a year. I could always make it do work but look around at the ships now and you don't need to fly that way. They just do work out of the box. I still put one on the table but I know I'm having to make up some points when I do so.

Imperial Firesprays are at least 3pts off. Look at defenders. Now look at imperial vet defenders. So many shared similarities. White Kturn and aux arc are a push. Crew slot makes up for large base. 4 hp doesn't beat 1 more green + either free action evade or double tap. Defender dial is better. Pilot abilities aren't even close.

Cheap scum crew and better pilot abilities, illicit slot, AND EPT ACCESS help scum out but they are still a point or two off as well. The jump master beats it handily at the same point cost. Both are large base moderate hp, 2 agility ships with lots of upgrade slots. When filled the jump master is cheaper than a firespray with some better than 4 dice primaries and a turret instead of Aux arc, and a "more interesting dial".

Firesprays need some great firespray only mods and an imperial scum crossover expansion. I too would add a crew and let it be cheap or a 1 use "other faction only" for theme (prisoner), imperial contracts for bounty hunting goodness, a Prisoner transport retrofit that gets rid of the 3 dice primary and reduces cost while gaining Hull. Lots of really cool and thematic ideas. All need to come in the mod or title slot.

Edited by Rakky Wistol

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Also the thing that irks me is that when you compare it to the aggresor, the aggressor clearly comes out ahead.

 

Compare an aggressor with the mando merc.

 

For only 1 point more, the aggressor gets:

+1 PS

+1 agility

Systems Slot

Pilot ability

Boost action + ability to then take auto thrusters

 

The only thing it loses is missile slot (meh), crew (systems is a fair trade if not better), the rear arc, and 2 less hit points.

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Sure, the Firespray still has a place in the game: Exhibit A in the power-creep case! :D

The only builds I use these days involves a stripped down Scum Kath or a Homing missile Fettigator, but I totally agree with the above posters, if it had hard-1, it would be far more competitive. As it is, the Falcon, Outrider, Jumpmaster, Brobot and the Ghost all have hard-1, but the firedspray doesn't. hmmm...

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In the other thread I made a fix that also gave Fireprays the ability to shoot Tractor beams out of Arc, which would help its blind spot and give it an interesting place in lists.

Edited by CheapCreep

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Rofl your an idiot if you really think id be butt hurt over something that involves flying plastic spaceships with made up characters

I'm just stating the obvious.

Something apparently your oblivious to

Yup, first mistake, taking my reply seriously. My 'take' on why Boba's Imp and Scum abilities were different was obviously in jest.

And I never said the Firespray was OK, just that it was fun. Sounds like you had fun with it too. It's average, which isn't good enough anymore since the last few waves have created some true monsters out there and everyone is searching for the one answer to beat them all. You know, the exact opposite of flying casual. But it's ok, I will leave the tournaments to those folks who can and do play far far better than me.

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Also the thing that irks me is that when you compare it to the aggresor, the aggressor clearly comes out ahead.

 

Compare an aggressor with the mando merc.

 

For only 1 point more, the aggressor gets:

+1 PS

+1 agility

Systems Slot

Pilot ability

Boost action + ability to then take auto thrusters

 

The only thing it loses is missile slot (meh), crew (systems is a fair trade if not better), the rear arc, and 2 less hit points.

 

With Scum, I am beginning to think that the crew slot is more important. And don't just dismiss the rear arc. 

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Firesprays are OK, they just lack a defining characteristic other than a auxiliary arc. The dial is ok, but vanilla. The health/agility is moderate. The upgrades are ok, but limited. The lack of an integrated repositioning ability or 0 speed limits it and makes it predictable. Pilot abilities are largely mediocre at best. Lack of EPTs on Krassis and Emmon limit them severely.

Overall, they are ok, they won't hurt you by putting them in a list, but fall well short of the centerpiece abilities of the YTS, Ghost, Jumpmaster, Decimator, etc.

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My problem with Firesprays, and more with Imperial Firesprays, is that their upgrades don't synergise that well with the base ship.

 

Want a damage increase? Get a cannon, or missiles, or torpedoes, which incentivises you limit the use of the rear arc. Upgrades that degrade the natural advantage of the ship is not great design.

 

Rebel Captive and Tactician are good crew on a Firespray, what else? Navigator? Intel Agent? Isard? Moff Jerjerrod? All of limited or situational use.

 

Bombs are a cool trick, but the best Firespray bomber is a Scum pilot, and it's not something that will bring the Firespray up from average to good.

 

It seems to me the rear arc is over-valued. Not because it's not good, but because it's not *that* good. Maybe 1 or 2 extra rounds of shooting. Maybe. If there were more effects that worked in arc, if cannon's or ordnance worked in the aux arc, or if the ship had more movement tricks to shift the aux arc, that might have made the ship more interesting.

 

As it stands, eh. Turret ships are for the most part, much better, and not much more expensive.

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Scum Boba is pretty **** good, personally i loathe the imperial firesprays. Not so much what the ship is, but what it has to face now.

The early large ships all have this issue: current ships are too cheap for what they bring when the early ships such as the firespray werent given because they were being overly cautious on balance. Fortunately, underpowered ships can see a fix in the future either through titles, mods, or some new toy, so its only an issue right now.

 

Its really **** expensive for what it does, and it has too many varied options to me. Missiles, bombs, and cannons are usually not a good mix just because of the price they ensue, so 1-2 of those slots usually go unused (seismic charges are so cheap you might as well take'm unless you seriously need that 2pts for a critical upgrade somewhere).

 

Still wouldnt say its terrible, just overshadowed. Ive ran it successfully recently but i felt like i had to outfly my opponent 10fold to even do anything with the like of Aces, Uboats, and regen rebels floating around.

 

I mean, hell compare it to a Kwing for instance. Kwings are cheaper, only SLIGHTLY less tanky (1 less hull and agi), has a crazy good pilot ability, and can be optimized for torpedo use. Large ships should not be overshadowed by a single small ship, yet theres plenty of examples of this with the early largeships. Different factions i know but not the point.

Edited by Vineheart01

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I don't find a Boba Fett with EU, Tactician, and VI any less powerful than Fat Han or Superdash to be honest with you and he costs significantly less.

 

Now that we have Glitterstim (which makes Cluster Missiles even better on Boba), I really don't see a drastic need to buff the Firespray. I'm 20-3 with 4 Binayres & Boba [CM, GS, EU, VI, Tact] though that was before the 3 Scouts Meta.

 

Would I appreciate a buff? Yes. Is it really necessary? Probably not when comparing to the average ship as opposed to top-meta options.

 

Fix the M3A and others first IMO.

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I don't find a Boba Fett with EU, Tactician, and VI any less powerful than Fat Han or Superdash to be honest with you and he costs significantly less.

 

Problem is, that's about the only 'good' Firespray build. And it only works for Boba Fett because PS 10 is strong, and it only works for Scum Boba Fett because Imperial Boba has a substantially worse pilot ability.

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I'd be okay with a "Law and Order" pack. That introduced the Canon security patrol Firespray for imperials, new titles and toys, then some cards that worked for scum too.

The a scum ship in the same pack with fixes in it.

That's exactly what I was talking about above. What other scum ship would cross over though? Brand new ship?

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I don't find a Boba Fett with EU, Tactician, and VI any less powerful than Fat Han or Superdash to be honest with you and he costs significantly less.

 

Problem is, that's about the only 'good' Firespray build. And it only works for Boba Fett because PS 10 is strong, and it only works for Scum Boba Fett because Imperial Boba has a substantially worse pilot ability.

 

 

But how many good YT-2400, E-wing, T-70, and even TIE Interceptor builds are there?

 

Many ships are pigeon holed into only a handful of 'good' builds. I think a lot of people overlook the Firespray; but between the aforementioned Boba build, Super Kath, and Attanni Mandalorian mercs... it's a very solid ship.

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They adjusted Poe's pilot ability to make him the best pilot in the resistance. Maybe they could do the same with the Firespray. Elite pilots not having an EPT in thus meta is pretty much a reason not to take them. I love the Kath/Palob build, but I do find it expensive for what it does. It does make you be a bit more creative, which I like, but I just wish they could make it more competitive. I think with the release of the JM5K they gave given us more reason not to use the Firespray which is sad.

I do think it needs a system upgrade. Sensor Jammer would make it tankier, FCS, well it would do what FCS does best.

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Before I read the whole topic, I want to get my thoughts down and see where they end up aligning, or not.

 

First, I think Imperial and Scum Firesprays are in different places, and have been since Most Wanted. The Scum pilot abilities are simply better.  To the extent that Firesprays have success in big tourneys, it's pretty much always Scum (and usually Fett).

 

Second, it wasn't terribly long ago that Firesprays were genuinely good.  I took 2nd after Swiss in a fairly big Sacramento Regionals last year with an Aggressor and Scum Fett, and the ship was great for me.

 

Third, three things happened that have hit Firesprays really hard: (a) Regenerating ships.  Firesprays aren't knife-fighters (not even Fett), and Miranda and other shield-regenerators can completely recover all damage between engagements, barring one-sided dice.  (b) TLTs.  AGI 2 is terrible against TLT -- you're paying significant points for extra AGI, and getting pretty much zero benefit -- and that drops to abysmal without Autothrusters.  © JumpBastards.  These are just flat-out power-creep (and for my tiny part of the blame there, I apologize).  There is simply no reason to take a Scum Firespray over one or another JM5K.

 

So ... should they be fixed?  Well, I dunno.  Honestly, one of the reasons JumpBastards are so powerful is simply an aligning of metagame factors.  As the metagame shifts, with interactions of ships, upgrades, rulings and FAQs, and play-styles pulling on things like the complex tides of a planet with seven big moons, ships come into an out of fashion.  ny fix for the Firespray in the current meta could, and it's a legitimate possibility, make it too powerful in the meta a year from now.

 

But for a thought experiment?  Sure, let's fix them.  Just with some caution.

 

Gyroscopic Traversal, Modification, 0 points, Firespray only.  You may perform attacks from your auxiliary arc with a secondary weapon with a cost of 5 or less.  You may equip another different Modification.

 

C'mon, the auxiliary arc is the best thing about the Firespray.  Let them use it.

 

Imperial Shadow, Title, -2 points, Imperial Firespray only.  Your squadron must include a non-unique ship with PS 2 or less and no more than 3 points of upgrades, which must setup within Range 1-2 of this ship.  You may equip another different Title.

 

This takes an inefficient ship and gloms on a hyper-efficient ship (effectively a 10-point TIE fighter, if desired, or a Scimitar Shuttle with excellent crew) with the drawbacks of mandating squadron composition and setup.  I think a lot of folks would be resistant to jumping through the necessary hoops, but IMO it's a pretty cool balance.

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