Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Bigulf

Prize support for regionals

Recommended Posts

If you can't make money selling snacks and drinks to 100 fat, captive gamers then honestly you have no place being in business. Add in board game / card game / dice dame / accessory sales from bored, between-round browsers (which means you actually have to have something people want to buy) and sales from normal people who come in (and again, if your play space isn't big enough to accomodate the event AND shoppers, what the hell are you doing hosting it to begin with?!?) and you should make more than enough.

 

Seems to me the clearest way to alienate this community is trying to make $5-$10 a head on the entrance fee and not offering decent prize support.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you can't make money selling snacks and drinks

Honestly the margin on snacks and drinks aren't that high.

 

and you should make more than enough.

How exactly do you define 'more than enough', and what makes you think you get to decide that for someone else?

 

Seems to me the clearest way to alienate this community is trying to make $5-$10 a head on the entrance fee and not offering decent prize support.

Seems to me that we'd have to define exactly what is decent prize support before a statement like that can have any meaning. It also seems to me that most people posting here are fine with the store trying to make some money off tournaments.

 

I mean from what I've seen and heard here... I don't think the SoCal regional is going to be smaller next year then it is this year.  So that means not many people are feeling alienated.

Edited by VanorDM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All that said, I can't help but look at supply and demand. They had over 100 players show up and pay $25 with no additional prize support. Clearly it being regionals alone is enough for people to pay that. If I owned that business, I wouldn't change a **** thing. That's basic economics.

 

To top it off the event also sold out in about 6 hours. There were plenty of locals that thought they'd be able to register when they showed up at the store during the week registration started that were disappointed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was at this regionals. Providing first hand knowledge.

Never having run a tournament myself nor being a store owner this comes from my observations alone.

It must be hard to run a tournament. Space, dates, time, marketing, applying to host, paying for tournament kits, all of these things take resources/time/personnel.

It's hard to run a business as well. (as a partner in a business) I know some of the ins and outs of trying to pay the bills, run day to day operations, market your business and plan for growth and expansion.

Firstly this tournament was run extremely well. Hats off to Glen (the TO, who doesn't work for the store, didn't get paid, and does it for his love of the game), the store for devoting time, money, resources and staff to host 112 people.
Planning and running an event that last for 12+ hours is no easy task. (12 hrs was only DAY 1)

The months of planning and adjusting to accommodate 100+ players must be nerve wracking.

As many people have pointed out, Glen, the store went above and beyond to provide the best experience necessary. They pointed out nearby food locations, made maps, pointed out local hotels, made arrangements for restrooms in another business to be available to us. And they ensured that there would be Hera cards for every player not just the top 64. That speaks volumes to how much care and thought was put into this. And even on top of that Glen designed and commissioned over 100+ acrylic tokens to be given out to every participant. Even cooler.

Yes some other stores may charge less or even use more of the entrance fees for prize support. Cool good for them. That's really, really, really generous of them. But that is that specific store's choice. That is that business owner's choice. Because one store does it, does not require all the other stores to do so.

As xwing players we are owed NOTHING. We play a game. We know the costs to invest in the ships to be competitive players. No one is forcing you to make this investment.

FFG produces Organized Play kits to REWARD us for playing. As mentioned before, these kits cost the store money. They do not get these for free. A store must apply and then be awarded a store championship or a regional event. Then, they are allowed to play money for prize support.

In my opinion there was nothing said or done that diminished my PLAY EXPERIENCE during this tournament. This is the only expectation I can hold store accountable for. The tournament was run smoothly. Results were posted. Care was given to make sure that pairings were correct and tables assigned. TO's were responsive and knowledgeable to requests and rules. I got to play 6 rounds of xwing over a 10-12 hour period. This is what I signed up for.

Anything outside of this is bonus.

The fact that the AC was running in a 2000+ sq foot building - extra (I don't even want to imagine the cost for this)

I'm sorry if there wasn't "extra" prize support up to your level of expectations.
Because there was plenty of EXTRA PRIZE SUPPORT, from alt art cards, store credit, and extra tokens. ALL EXTRA ABOVE AND BEYOND THE FFG PRIZE KIT.

If you ever have a negative play experience, please, for the good of the community, talk to the TO or to the store owner, try to resolve your issues as soon as they happen. If you are unsatisfied with their answers, then you should escalate it to FFG organized play.

Please don't go complaining to FFG because one store made a choice that was different than your expectations or that was different from a completely different store's way of running a tournament.

I make a very hard effort to spend money at each store I visit. Because usually I pay 5-15 dollars to enter a tournament and sit in that store for 6-10 hours NOT purchasing any of their product to play xwing.

The least I can do is support this store who's space I am taking and sometimes won't visit again for another whole year or more. I know many of us don't have coffers over flowing with cash. Cool, that's where you are. Support that store you are in, buy a drink, buy some candy.

At the end of the day it is YOUR choice to participate in this hobby.
It is YOUR CHOICE to travel to these events.
It is YOUR CHOICE to spend money/time/energy to participate.
The store owes you nothing. FFG owes you nothing.

Say thank you to your TOs. Say thank you to the stores that host you. Say thank you to your fellow players. Say thank you to FFG for designing a game that hopefully brings you joy and pleasure for hours on end.

Edited by andrewseely

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough, please allow me to address the point then.

 

1) Actually I ran the numbers this AM and you get around a 73% gross margin on drinks and a 44% gross margin on candybars. Chips are even better,   (It's a better margin than a lot of your board / card games)

 

2) More than enough - You're right, I can't decide how much profit is acceptable. Maybe based on what your standard Sat afternoon, non-magic release weekend take is? But again, it seems alot of these guys went to the Jack Sparrow school of Business (i.e "Take all you can, give nothing back")

 

3) Alienating - Again, you are right. Everyone has to decide what their definitions are and they are specific to the individual.

 

For example, there is no way that I will go back to Milwaukee next year, Not happening under any circumstances, Price was too high, value was too low, store products were overpriced, there was a perception of some chicanery, and generally not worth the cost of admission and travel. I am sure that there will be people who have no problem going there next year and that is their prerogative. I'm not in the business of deciding for others, just for myself. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Actually I ran the numbers this AM and you get around a 73% gross margin on drinks and a 44% gross margin on candybars.

I don't doubt your numbers but is that true for Southern California? Also there's the question of equipment and such...

 

it seems alot of these guys went to the Jack Sparrow school of Business (i.e "Take all you can, give nothing back")

I don't know what all was involved but I'm not going to take the OP's word at face value about it, especially when it sounds like the venue in question was both charging what was standard for that area and actually offered better prize support then what some people claimed. I also know that unless you were involved in this event then you really have no place to make claims like that.

 

Unless you're the type who believes there is no such thing as reasonable profit...

Edited by VanorDM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough, please allow me to address the point then.

 

1) Actually I ran the numbers this AM and you get around a 73% gross margin on drinks and a 44% gross margin on candybars. Chips are even better,   (It's a better margin than a lot of your board / card games)

OK cool, can I see these numbers you ran?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure:

 

Sam's club:

 

35 pack of Coke / Diet Coke / Sprite - $9.46

Price at retail - $1.00

Gross Margin - 72.97% / 269.98% MarkUp

 

Let's be wild and throw a 10% sales tax into the mix

 

35 pack of Coke / Diet Coke / Sprite - $9.46

Price at retail - $1.00 (.90 cents - .09 cents tax) = 31.50

Gross Margin - 69.97% / 232.98% MarkUp

 

How about chips?

 

30 bags of chips =  $12.38

Retail = 1.00

Gross Margin - 58.73%  / 142.33% MarkUp

 

Maybe Candy Bars:

 

Twix - 19.94 for 36

Retail - 1.00

Gross Margin 44.61% / Markup 80.54%

 

The point is, you have decent margins and should be selling through a significant amount of snacks on a tournament day.

 

 

Also, I wanted to mention that this is NOT about SoCal specifically and I am not suggesting that I speak for anyone but myself. 

 

If I have given the impression that I think otherwise, my apologies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I have given the impression that I think otherwise, my apologies.

That's why I liken Regionals and other events to buyers market. Since they are completely optional it takes very little for the ROI to not be worth it.

 

That should mean that the people running the events should get fairly quick feedback on if what they're doing is acceptable to the customer base or not.

 

In the case of the SoCal Regional, they apparently sold out in 6 hours.  I can only assume that the people who signed up for it knew what the prize support would be like as well as the cost.

 

That means that despite the issue of the OP most people felt that $25 was quite reasonable for what they were getting.  Maybe the OP just didn't look closely enough or made assumptions about what would be offered I don't know.

 

But if you can sell 100+ seats in 6 hours at $25 with the prize support listed, then clearly the price point is quite reasonable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I expect nothing except for the contents of the kit, anything else is a bonus.

Decent food options are also a plus. A "F"LGS near us does not allow outside food or drink. Jokes on that ****** I'll just sneak a sub sandwich in the tube I use to transport my mat.

This isn't really for regionals, just tournaments in general.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I have given the impression that I think otherwise, my apologies.

That's why I liken Regionals and other events to buyers market. Since they are completely optional it takes very little for the ROI to not be worth it.

 

That should mean that the people running the events should get fairly quick feedback on if what they're doing is acceptable to the customer base or not.

 

In the case of the SoCal Regional, they apparently sold out in 6 hours.  I can only assume that the people who signed up for it knew what the prize support would be like as well as the cost.

 

That means that despite the issue of the OP most people felt that $25 was quite reasonable for what they were getting.  Maybe the OP just didn't look closely enough or made assumptions about what would be offered I don't know.

 

But if you can sell 100+ seats in 6 hours at $25 with the prize support listed, then clearly the price point is quite reasonable.

The event sold out quickly largely in part to other areas not getting regionals this year. Additionally, the prior SD regional had food, custom LED lit ships and other swag as prizes so the precedent was set for a repeat occurance. If it was posted up front that things were changing I likely missed it but I don't think it was posted. The event sold out in hours and within two weeks the store found room for 30 more seats.

When you have this much interest and people deposit a large sum of cash into your hand months ahead of an event- take a minute to order product and stock up... This will allow you to continue to maximize profit. If the concern is making money do what it takes to cover all the bases (admission, product, snacks for purchase etc.) Sadly the focus was on obtaining as much entries as possible and that is the official platform of those who organized.

Live and learn I guess and myself and others will speak with their (lack of) attendance in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Last years SoCal Regionals did have Epic prizes.

1 each of a Rebel, Imperial, and Scum ship fully painted and LED lit. Parts purchased and converted by one of the Local Players who was proud and excited that "his" FLGS was selected to host this premier event. Who was not able to attend this year. Sorry if you feel slighted that someone had other R/L issues and could not be bothered to spend his personal time and money to light up a set of ships this year.

The "Youngblood Prize" given out to the young girl who played (and won a match) last year was purchased by myself. Granted the young lady was my daughter, but I wanted her to get something in front of everyone in recognition for playing in an event of this magnitude. This year the prize was Cold Stone Ice Cream.

Tons of prizes that included a Tantive as the crash prize. Lots of other ships and store credit. Which the owner took a serious bath on considering very few people bought anything that day. You tell him to stock up on stuff. His previous experience is no one will purchase anything since they arrive with everything they need. Now he has an excess of stock that takes time for him to sell. This game is NOT Magic where a major release requires all the players to purchase entire new decks to play.

 

Food? That's a rarity. The Fresno Regional did have a taco truck on site (and it was yummy)...but we were also asked specifically to patronize him because they were trying to develop a relationship with the guy so he would be willing to set up for other (non X-Wing; ie; MtG) events. If you're not brining your own food, snacks. and drinks in anticipation of your own needs then it's really on you. I've done other game events both local and hundreds of miles away. I NEVER expect to be fed and always bring my own food with me. I live about 5 minutes away from the SoCal store and I still brought fruit, Granola bars, Bottle Water, and Subway Sandwiches with me. That is one of the lessons learned from doing Tournys. If you plan on travelling any distance to an event, always do your own prep on the area and see what's available and plan around that.

 

Last year many of the local players put a lot of their time, talent, and treasure into making our first hosted Regionals an event everyone would remember. Very few who came from out of town knew that. This year many of us put that TTT into list prepping and practicing so we could have a better showing in our home field. Regardless, several players still devoted time to helping with setup and the logistics of the day.

Sorry if that lack of our money and time made it a bad experience for you. If you feel not coming next year is your only option, then great. Maybe some of our locals who did put time and effort into the event would be able to actually get a seat and play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you seriously just pat yourself on the back for awarding your daughter a prize? I mean, I'm kinda jealous that you have a kid cool enough to play, but honestly the whole post comes off as you feeling unappreciated (and unless you got the Birthday cake ice cream at cold stone, I got no respect for you).

Anywsy, either this is a business or a charity. I find too many people treat their LGS like it's a charity and get pissed off if anybody dares question the value of the money they spend there. Since that's too emotional to address, maybe instead of us just bitching about how some of us feel hurt about how much tournaments cost and how little we perceive that we received, and others of us defending the LGS and their clearly righteous cause of making money, perhaps we can brainstorm as a community to come up with what we would perceive as a good value to help business owners in planning and pricing their events.

So what is fair for just the kit and 5/6 rounds? What about the kit and a ship door prize every round? What about a kit, door prizes and a few extras, like promos from other kits they had laying around...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just saying that last year some of the prizes and swag were things done by the locals beyond what the TO and store owner were putting together.

This year we also had a guy make some nice alternate cards that he freely gave out to players (things like a dual sided R2D2...1 side crew the other droid).

Its kind of grating when someone brings up the cool swag from last year and then complains about the lack of cool swag this year without realizing some of that cool swag was donated by the local players who wanted to make the event something to remember, and for various reasons could not do so this year.

 

(EDIT) As to your final suggestion...that's what happened...except the TO chose to announce those prizes at the end of the Swiss rounds so that the people who stayed would be the ones who got the prizes. While their were no actual ships given, at least half a dozen prizes of Store Credit were given out (enough to go buy a ship if that's what you wanted). That would be 1 per round. The crash prize was some Promos from older kits. Not to mention the extra Hera's so everyone got one.

Besides, if your driving several hours to an event (paying $50+ just for gas along with your $25 entry fee and maybe $25 more for food...a 100 dollar day) and get upset that you don't get a free ship (that's costs $16), then your obvious cost analysis should tell you even if you won a ship your better option would have been to stay home and spend that 100 dollars on 4 or 5 ships instead.

Edited by kellyj

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

...hard work to run a tournament.

What work that is required to host an X-Wing tournament is difficult enough to be considered "hard work?" Moving chairs?

It does require work, but do not be disingenuous.

 

Setting up tables and chairs for 16+ players, entering them into a tournament database, handling everything before, during and after the event.

I think its more than reasonable to call it hard work to be the TO of a large X-Wing event.

Hard is not only to describe physical labour.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really dislike posts like this. It always seems like a witch hunt against stores that are willing and able to run large events.

What do you propose the above store should have done? Charged less, given larger prizes, etc.?

The OP at no point stated that the witch should be burned. They have said that they felt like they didn't get value for money.  They have asked other peoples opinions on what their experiences have been. Others have said that the OP may not grasp what the actual costs are to what the actual costs are perceived to be. 

 

I think it's a fair question, one I would like to know others experiences too as I have very limited regional experience. I would like to know what others have found in their endeavours as a fun and great event.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...hard work to run a tournament.

What work that is required to host an X-Wing tournament is difficult enough to be considered "hard work?" Moving chairs?

It does require work, but do not be disingenuous.

Setting up tables and chairs for 16+ players, entering them into a tournament database, handling everything before, during and after the event.

I think its more than reasonable to call it hard work to be the TO of a large X-Wing event.

Hard is not only to describe physical labour.

Maybe if the tables are stone tablets and the chairs are wrought iron. Moving things from one side of the room to the other is only hard work if those things are difficult to move.

You consider data entry and minor social media advertising (for an event that will very likely have demand that exceeds capacity regardless) hard work? Be serious. If carrying anything and typing are qualifiers to make work difficult, I can not imagine what job you would consider not to be hard work.

I really dislike posts like this. It always seems like a witch hunt against stores that are willing and able to run large events.

The OP at no point stated that the witch should be burned. They have said that they felt like they didn't get value for money.

You are being unfair. How do you expect people to suppress reasonable things that others are saying if they can not mischaracterize it as unreasonable?

Edited by Rapture

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

...hard work to run a tournament.

What work that is required to host an X-Wing tournament is difficult enough to be considered "hard work?" Moving chairs?

It does require work, but do not be disingenuous.

Setting up tables and chairs for 16+ players, entering them into a tournament database, handling everything before, during and after the event.

I think its more than reasonable to call it hard work to be the TO of a large X-Wing event.

Hard is not only to describe physical labour.

Maybe if the tables are stone tablets and the chairs are wrought iron. Moving things from one side of the room to the other is only hard work if those things are difficult to move.

You consider data entry and minor social media advertising (for an event that will very likely have demand that exceeds capacity regardless) hard work? Be serious. If carrying anything and typing are qualifiers to make work difficult, I can not imagine what job you would consider not to be hard work.

Well considering the TOs job is to be the arbiter and make good decisions for 12+ hours while not making a mistake with data entry, then putting everything away after a long long day, yes, its hard work. At the very least its mentally draining work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well considering the TOs job is to be the arbiter and make good decisions for 12+ hours while not making a mistake with data entry, then putting everything away after a long long day, yes, its hard work. At the very least its mentally draining work.

Besides the fact that the vast majority of questions posed to TOs have obvious discernable answers or have been discussed in advance by players in public forums, X-Wing's rules really are not that complicated. The difficult questions are typically difficult because there is not necessarily a right or wrong answer. In those cases, the TO simply makes the call that they believe is the best. Combined with the fact that there is no recourse against a TO for making a bad call, I don't find the argument that their decision making process is stressful and difficult to be very convincing. These are not circuit court judges - they are making decisions about a game with a relatively simple and small amount of rules and interactions.

And what data entry task would allow for errors in entering data? Wouldn't a lack of accuracy compromise the data? The idea that data entry is hard work is rediculous. If that is hard work, then every job is hard work.

Had a long post about the TO thing, then saw who wrote it. Don't feed the trolls guys.

No-one in their right mind would argue that TOs don't work hard to put on events.

So you had a brilliant argument about how deciding whether bombs damage friendly ships in their range and whether Dengar attacks before or after the second cluster missile requires an amout of mental effort that qualifies it as a difficult task and how moving tables and chairs after working a long day is demanding labor but then decided that it was easier to erase it and type a new response hinting toward how valuable your input was instead of just hitting "Post?" I am sorry that we all missed it. Edited by Rapture

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...