Rebel Rhymer Counter

[Drasnighta 26,833]

I'm really struggling as a Rebel player, today...

 

 

 

I went to our Weekly League, and I was pressed with these lists to go up again...

 

 

Imp-I, Booster, Hangars, XI-7, Tarkin

Raider, Impetuous, OE

Raider, OE

 

Rhymer
Dengar

Adv x2

Bomber x 4  (Or 3?)

Firespray x 2

 

With a 20pt Bid.

 

 

 

Imp-I, Motti, Boosted, Hangar

Imp-I Motti, Boosted, Hangar

 

Dengar

Rhymer
Advanced
Bombers x 6 (?)

 

 

 

 

Vic-I, Motti, Boosted, FCs

Vic-I, Boosted, FCs

 

Rhymer

Bomber x 8

Advanced

Mauler

 

 

 

....

 

So you can see where my personal little Meta is.

 

So, I faced the first list.  I had a pair of decked out MonCals with Garm, and 8 X-Wings to boot.

 

And I just got steamrolled in the Squadron Phase...  End of the game ended with a 39pt MOV 5-5(?) to Me, as I lost my Non-Garm MonCal and those X-Wings, for a Raider, Two Advanced and a Firespray...  The saving grace was the 15-3 Tokens I took in Fire Lanes...

 

But I just can't dent a Rhymer Ball without losing everything horridly...

 

So now I'm looking at this:

[ REBEL FLEET (400 points)
1 • Assault Frigate Mark II A - Garm Bel Iblis - Electronic Countermeasures (113)
2 • Assault Frigate Mark II A - Flight Controllers - Boosted Comms - Electronic Countermeasures (98)
3 • Assault Frigate Mark II A - Ruthless Strategists - Cluster Bombs - Gallant Haven (98)
4 • YT-1300 (13)
5 • YT-1300 (13)
6 • X-wing Squadron (13)
7 • X-wing Squadron (13)
8 • X-wing Squadron (13)
9 • X-wing Squadron (13)
10 • X-wing Squadron (13)
11 • Objectives - Advanced Gunnery - Fire Lanes - Superior Positions (0)
 

 

 

Garm and FCs herd the X-Wings about...  Gallant Drives the YT-1300s into the Rhymer Ball and Goes to Town....

 

Thoughts?

Yes.  Those are Cluster Bombs.  No, I do think they're an okay choice in the fact that I will be driving into the middle of a Rhymer ball, and neither ECMs or Advanced Projectors really help when you're taking Death-by-Bomber-Cuts...

 

 

 

 

 

[Amanal 2,557]

Kill Rhymer, then the ball looks just like any other bomber force. Dengar and the Advanced can't always cover him from everywhere. If they can then kill Dengar if possible and at least keep the ball engaged. Another thought here is to put your squadrons on some terrain if at all possible, you lose a dice but will not be engaged, allowing you to then jump behind the ball with an extra move in the following turn.

 

I would also be inclined to chuck GBI inito Jaina's Light with some TRC's for the annoyance value. The points you shave off may be a few extra squadrons.

 

I have found myself getting a bit of Han Solo where I can spare the points. If I can activate him with Adar Tallon all the merrier as he can move and shoot at that time, move and shoot as rogue in the squadron phase then self-activate at the start of the next turn.

[Drasnighta 26,833]

Kill Rhymer, then the ball looks just like any other bomber force. Dengar and the Advanced can't always cover him from everywhere. If they can then kill Dengar if possible and at least keep the ball engaged. Another thought here is to put your squadrons on some terrain if at all possible, you lose a dice but will not be engaged, allowing you to then jump behind the ball with an extra move in the following turn.

 

I would also be inclined to chuck GBI inito Jaina's Light with some TRC's for the annoyance value. The points you shave off may be a few extra squadrons.

 

I have found myself getting a bit of Han Solo where I can spare the points. If I can activate him with Adar Tallon all the merrier as he can move and shoot at that time, move and shoot as rogue in the squadron phase then self-activate at the start of the next turn.

 

Absolutely Horrid Dice rolling today stymied me from doing anything meaningful to him...  I mean, I got into kill the Advanced who were protecting Dengar + Rhymer, but only did 1/2 damage to both Firesprays before my Attack Force folded...

 

As it was, my MonCal only died on Turn 6...  and Garm's MonCal was virtually untouched...

 

Han, maybe Han...  At the cost of 2 X-Wings...  Maybe.  

[Ginkapo 9,321]

Rieekan and Wedge!

The key words are Hold, Hold, Hold, hold. Dont try and kill the rhymer ball. Wait for it to come to you then kill Dengar fast. This requires a hwk290

[Amanal 2,557]

Most of those Squadrons you listed are upward of 110-120 points. So terrible dice and that you are 20(ish) points behind wouldn't be helping any at all.

 

BTW: Are you sure it is terrible dice and not terrible statistics? 2Blue Dice will go HH(16/64), HA(16/64), H-(16/64) and A- or -- (16/64). Now 25% I'll be considering the use of my Brace/Scatter, 50% I'll just take a single hit (Scatter may be considered as that also avoids the Ruthless Strategists) and 25% of the time I'll be missed. They be Two-Up odds, which isn't great, as such I would almost consider dropping the AFmkA's to AFmkB's and gaining the extra Squadron Command, and improve the types of squadrons in this mix somewhat. Now if we had a blue dice equivalent of Ordinance Experts, then with the re-rolls you'll be slanting the odds towards 2 hits per shot. (Maybe Ion Thingies from wave 4?)

 

I think I have kept the spirit of you fleet here, I have removed an AF and thrown in the Corvette, and added in Han and Jan. I have swapped out the X-Wings with A-Wings as to get the extra speed, and add the disruption of having Counter 2. Giving them 6 blue dice when they get Flight Controllers sending them into the fight and then get shot at. Adar giving commands can add in some additional re-rolls and the whole Adar+Han thing can add some extra damage at a nice time. Jaina's Light lets the Corvette hide behind the AF's and plink away at things. With a Guam Token it too can help with a command in a pinch.

 

I would also consider dropping Ruthless Strategists/Expanded Hanger for Flight Controllers and Boosted Comms or modifying some of the A-Wings for X-Wings as to give you a few extra hull for Ruthless Strategists. Mind you if you can get his Squadrons down by turn 4 and have a few A-Wings left their Black Dice against ships is better than the X-Wings red for the most part.

 

[ REBEL FLEET (394 points)
1 • Assault Frigate Mark II A - Adar Tallon - Flight Controllers - Boosted Comms - Electronic Countermeasures (108)
2 • Assault Frigate Mark II A - Ruthless Strategists - Expanded Hangar Bay - Electronic Countermeasures (97)
3 • CR90 Corellian Corvette A - Garm Bel Iblis - Turbolaser Reroute Circuits - Jaina's Light (78)
4 • Han Solo Millennium Falcon (26)
5 • A-wing Squadron (11)
6 • A-wing Squadron (11)
7 • A-wing Squadron (11)
8 • A-wing Squadron (11)
9 • A-wing Squadron (11)
10 • A-wing Squadron (11)
11 • Jan Ors Moldy Crow (19)

 

At the end of it all I just hope I have given you pause to think about some options, I realise our Meta and preferences will differ a lot.

[Parkdaddy 626]

Yt2400s are great for chasing down enemy squadrons. And ships. And anything, really. But if you don't have at least 4 to swoop into the middle of the ball, then it's just a really bold strategy. Let's see how it plays out

[clontroper5 4,233]

I would definitely throw Jan in there with your x-wings. She can help save a lot of damage.

Otherwise high damage aggressive fleets perform well aginst rhymer so you could go a mc-30/ trc90 swarm which would be fun

Alternatively (#3) swap sides, run 3 vic's or sonthjng and bring Dengar, Fel, Mauler,Howl,D-Vader, bossk, 1 t/adv and 1 t/ln

Then watch as their poor rhymer ball burns!

[nermal 12]

Ruthless strategist is pretty effective vs squadrons (although I still prefer Gunnery Teams myself).  Perhaps the problem is not the Rhymer ball and instead is how you place your squadrons.  I don't know what happened in your games but based on the fleet you described playing I would have attempted to spread the x-wings out and engage individual tie-bombers with the intention of holding the tie-bomber in place instead of destroying it in one go (which typically means engaging with multiple squadrons).  An x-wing should be able to kill a tie-bomber in 2 activations with the help of ruthless strategists (maybe 1 with really good rolling on a ships flack fire).  

 

You could also try Yavaris, Adar Talon, Wedge, and Dutch to really smash particular squadrons.  If you can get Dutch to shoot Dengar and hold him in place that really limits the ball.  An Assault Frigate with Gallant haven would be pretty decent at charging into the ball as well.  Toryn Far I think will go a long way to negating the Rhymer ball as well when the Flotillas are released.

[Drasnighta 26,833]

@nermal - that is exactly what I was doing - spreading them out and engaging as much as possible...

At which point I would do 1 damage to them with my 4 blues, and they would do 1 damage back with counter, and then 1 damage on their attack, and I'd lose on attrition...

So yes, my dice are fickle...  But...

 

 

I think half of my issue is he's backing them up with Raiders, adding his Anti-Squadron Firepower, and I have a distinct choice (With my original fleet of Mon Cals) of either Broadsiding a Raider, or Anti-Squadroning the Ball, as they're all in the same arc...  And I, obviously, try the Raider Broadside...

[reegsk 742]

Those seem to be pretty light Rhymerballs as far as anti-squadron power. Yes, they do have the Raiders, but those are much more vulnerable to your Assault Frigates. While Rhymerballs can fire at Medium range, they still have to get in fairly close, and am I correct in assuming that they're flying them out ahead of the Star Destroyers?

 

I agree with Amanal, here. Swap out some X-Wings for some A-Wings. And I don't think you need AF A's. Your ships want to stay at range against those builds, so losing a blue die out the front by switching to a B isn't a big deal, and you also want to start chewing up the ball before it gets into Medium range (and a second blue die isn't going to help much, increasing damage by one per squadron if two AFs fire at the same squadrons).

 

Here's an idea:

 

Assault Frigate Mk II-B

- Boosted Comms

- Flight Controllers

- Garm bel Iblis

 

Assault Frigate Mk II-B

- Boosted Comms

- Flight Controllers

 

Assault Frigate Mk II-B

- Boosted Comms

- Flight Controllers

 

3 x A-Wings

3 x X-Wings

Jan Ors

Wedge Antilles

Tycho Celchu

 

Opening Salvo, Contested Outpost, Superior Positions

 

So the idea is to engage the ball much earlier, and force some tough choices. Against the first list, the Raiders are the bigger threat against your fighters, and any round the Firesprays are shooting at your fighters is a round they're not shooting at your ships, which is a win. Against the other two, you should be able to pick them apart easily.

 

The main idea is to get your A-Wings to surround the ball before it gets into range. A lot of players will fly their bombers very aggressively which can get them into trouble. If you place your A-Wings so that each is engaging one or two bombers and are as far as possible from each other (not too difficult with their speed of five), Dengar can only Intel one or two at a time, meaning half of the bombers will be bogged down. In all likelihood, the other player will free up what he can and shoot it forward to begin bombing. The lists with two Advanceds will have to leave one behind to babysit Dengar, and move the other forward to watch Rhymer. This is huge. A single Escort cannot cover every possible angle, so you should be able to slip one or two squadrons in to engage your target (Rhymer/Dengar) without engaging its escort. Two X-Wings with Flight Controllers should be able to get Rhymer to discard a Brace and put 2-4 damage on him. A pair of A-Wings with Flight Controllers should be able to kill Dengar outright (you need an Accuracy and two damage each, which is statistically what should happen).

 

And is that third list correct with no Dengar or Jumpmaster? Because if that's the case, you just swarm it with your fighters and it's game over. Three AFs should be able to handle two Vics, and you are going to win that squadron battle.

 

The other plus of this list is that your points are spread out. If the Rhymerball does manage to hit one of your ships (and it likely will), you're only losing about 80pts (if it's not your flagship).

 

The big things to remember are:

1) You must learn patience. Against all three lists, you have the upper hand when it comes to squadrons. But if you spring your trap too early and place your ships out of command range, Flight Controllers become useless, and your squadrons will get picked apart. This may delay bombing runs, but it won't stop them entirely and you'll be out a lot of points.

2) Remember your primary goals. Kill Dengar. Mop up. Once Dengar is dead, the ball is pinned in place. Once Dengar is dead, Mauler is an overpriced TIE Fighter. Rhymer is scary, but once he's engaged he's done. Their bombers have a lot of hull, yes, but not a lot of anti-squadron punch.You have Jan Ors to reduce damage from the Advanceds and Firesprays to one point. It will take five attacks from Bombers to kill a single X-Wing. Three X-Wing attacks will kill a bomber. You will win that bout.

3) Trust in Wedge. Wedge has a decent chance of one-shotting Mauler Mithel or putting 2-4 damage on Rhymer by himself, provided his target has activated.

4) Never stop the Tycho dance. Tycho should never be engaged with more than one Squadron unless there's a good reason. If he can slip in to take a shot at Dengar, then leave him more exposed. Otherwise, constantly fly him around so he's only engaged by one enemy squadron. He can easily pull people out of position and his tokens should help keep him alive a little longer.

 

Specific Recommendations:

List One - Sacrifice your A-Wings. Surround the Rhymerball once it is within Long Range of your Assault Frigates. Your opponent will likely bring in the Raiders to wipe them out, which leaves them vulnerable to AF broadsides. You're sacrificing 50pts for about 100pts of Raiders, and either tying down or splitting up the Rhymerball. Once the Raiders are dead, your X-Wings can come in and start dishing out some damage on their remaining squadrons.

​List Two - Again, surround with the A-Wings. Try to do it when your opponent will be engaging your ships with theirs, and keeping your fighters in Long Range for the max use of Flight Controllers. Here, your opponent has the toughest choice - fight it out with the A-Wings and then move on, or move forward with part of the ball and leave Dengar or Rhymer unescorted. Either way, they're going to have a bad time. If they stay to fight it out, you can move your slower X-Wings forward and continue the battle.

List Three - Pretty much the same as above, but you can keep your squadrons together a bit more since they don't have Dengar to break away.

[Drasnighta 26,833]

Okay, so, in Enemy List 3, I didn't add the Demolisher...

 

His Rhymer ball is relying on Blue+Black from Bombers to chew threw enemy squadrons reliably, with the Vics at very long range, while Demo does his thing.

[Ginkapo 9,321]

Ok, a lot of people have mentioned spreading out to engage the ball early.

Why? If you do this you lose any control and Dengar will free everyone up. The only reason to make the first move is if you have the alpha strike to kill Dengar in one activation.

I also see mention of targeting Rhymer. Why? Once you take out intel, he is a an overpriced over defended tie bomber. Dont shoot him until all are dead.

Use YT1300's to deny space zones. Minimal Xwings to help tie up bombers if essential. But do not be afraid to allow them a few shots early. You have shields, use them.

Use Jan to hand out braces and allow your Xwings to overload escorts and Dengar.

A pair of YT2400s can allow a great threat outside of the ship phase and are quite good at taking out escorts after the first move is made by the imperial player.

Remember if they never attack and no squadrons shoot you won the engagement as they wasted more points.

If you want to deal with Demolisher, Use Adar and Keyan. Its a scary sight. AFs dont kill fast. Xwings dont kill fast. You need a form of burst damage.

[Drasnighta 26,833]

I think this is the test, tomorrow...  barring anything completely untoward:

 

[ REBEL FLEET (397 points)
1 • Assault Frigate Mark II B - Garm Bel Iblis - Gunnery Team (104)
2 • Assault Frigate Mark II B - Flight Controllers - Expanded Hangar Bay (83)
3 • Assault Frigate Mark II B - Ruthless Strategists - Quad Laser Turrets - Gallant Haven (89)
4 • Y-wing Squadron (10)
5 • Y-wing Squadron (10)
6 • Y-wing Squadron (10)
7 • Y-wing Squadron (10)
8 • Y-wing Squadron (10)
9 • X-wing Squadron (13)
10 • X-wing Squadron (13)
11 • X-wing Squadron (13)
12 • X-wing Squadron (13)
13 • Jan Ors Moldy Crow (19)
14 • Objectives - Precision Strike - Hyperspace Assault - Dangerous Territory (0)

Edited June 4, 2016 by Drasnighta

[Parkdaddy 626]

First, how did it do? I am interested to know. But something is really like to say is...

i think that taking advantage of the rogue abilities is going to be key to mounting a good rebel counter to the Rhymerball. Seriously consider taking 4 YT2400s. You have a carrier build to get in squadron activations, yes, but you can free up space for some CF commands by taking at least a couple rogues with you.

I'm honestly surprised that I haven't seen a meta running a ton of these squadrons with their 4 AS and 1 black anti-ship armaments and 6 hull. I only run two (because that's all I have), and I have yet to face an opponent that didn't wish I hadn't. They are fast and powerful, and can engage a Rhymberall without ship support at great distance from your ships. FFG gave us the Rhymer counter with the Rogue keyword. Engage enemy squadrons away from your ships.

During the squadron phase, they can jump into the ball, lock down multiple squads (Dengar can't be everywhere) or focus down a single squad (like a firespray or Dengar), and continue to chase the ball as it tries to get your ships. I think the current Rebel meta is too focused on being EITHER carrier OR Rieekan with a lot of little ships. Use the Rogues, Luke.

And if you get matched with somebody not running a Rhymerball? That's perfectly fine too, because these beauties are savage at chasing down and finishing off ships.

Edit: Green knight corrected my incorrect hull value from 5 to 6. It was 1:30 in the morning...

Edited June 5, 2016 by Parkdaddy

[Green Knight 9,746]

Six. They have six hull.

[Ginkapo 9,321]

 I think the current Rebel meta is too focused on being EITHER carrier OR Rieekan with a lot of little ships. Use the Rogues, Luke.

 

For all the reasons you stated, the Vassal Meta has a lot of YT2400's

[Parkdaddy 626]

I think the current Rebel meta is too focused on being EITHER carrier OR Rieekan with a lot of little ships. Use the Rogues, Luke.

 

For all the reasons you stated, the Vassal Meta has a lot of YT2400's

Ah, well I'm not on vassal, so that's why my confusion. But it does makes sense.

[Drasnighta 26,833]

Because I only own two YT-2400s.

Outside of Vassal, actually getting a multitude of any of the Rogues is problematic for this Canadian in particular.

 

And my first test of any of the lists is Today...  I only get to play Fortnightly

[Vogons 195]

I know its no bid, low activation, but how about this:

 

Carrier Fleet 400 pts 
Author: Vogons

Faction: Rebel Alliance 
Points: 400/400 

Commander: Garm Bel Iblis

Assault Objective: Precision Strike 
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost 
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

Assault Frigate Mark II B (72 points)
-  Gallant Haven  ( 8  points) 
-  Adar Tallon  ( 10  points) 
-  Flight Controllers  ( 6  points) 
-  Expanded Hangar Bay  ( 5  points) 
-  Advanced Projectors  ( 6  points) 

[ flagship ] MC80 Command Cruiser (106 points)
-  Garm Bel Iblis  ( 25  points) 
-  Intel Officer  ( 7  points) 
-  Expanded Hangar Bay  ( 5  points) 
-  Advanced Projectors  ( 6  points) 
-  NK-7 Ion Cannons  ( 10  points) 

4 B-Wing Squadrons ( 56 points) 
2 YT-1300s ( 26 points) 
4 X-Wing Squadrons ( 52 points) 

Fleet created with Armada Warlords

[Ginkapo 9,321]

Because I only own two YT-2400s.

 

 

I have found two YT2400's to be the perfect amount. Dominate squadron activates in the normal way, add power in the squadron phase with these two.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

I know its no bid, low activation, but how about this:

 

Carrier Fleet 400 pts 

Author: Vogons

Faction: Rebel Alliance 

Points: 400/400 

Commander: Garm Bel Iblis

Assault Objective: Precision Strike 

Defense Objective: Contested Outpost 

Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

Assault Frigate Mark II B (72 points)

-  Gallant Haven  ( 8  points) 

-  Adar Tallon  ( 10  points) 

-  Flight Controllers  ( 6  points) 

-  Expanded Hangar Bay  ( 5  points) 

-  Advanced Projectors  ( 6  points) 

[ flagship ] MC80 Command Cruiser (106 points)

-  Garm Bel Iblis  ( 25  points) 

-  Intel Officer  ( 7  points) 

-  Expanded Hangar Bay  ( 5  points) 

-  Advanced Projectors  ( 6  points) 

-  NK-7 Ion Cannons  ( 10  points) 

4 B-Wing Squadrons ( 56 points) 

2 YT-1300s ( 26 points) 

4 X-Wing Squadrons ( 52 points) 

Fleet created with Armada Warlords

One of my friends has run this for a long time, with lots of different iterations and tweaks, and it seriously struggles to compete, just because of the activations. Two activations is really rough. On top of which, that's 14 hull points in the entire fleet.

[reegsk 742]

I think that last sentence nails it. Fourteen hull just isn't enough.

[Maturin 1,583]

Have you tried the Wedge/Dutch/Yavaris combo? Deadly against squadrons, and cheaper than your third AF. Takes a different play style though...

[Drasnighta 26,833]

I used to be all about the Neb-Bs...  But the problem was, Wedge and Dutch were only shutting down 1-2 a turn - the others were just Side-Bombing at that point, and Yavaris dies quickly when those side shields are hit by Bombers...  So I gave that up completely...

 

 

 

I ran Today with Garm, 3 AFs,  (GT+ECM, GT+ECM, FC+QLT+GALLANT)

 

With AAAAAXYYY+HWK.

 

Two Games, two losses, but two very close losses....

 

Game one was against ISD, Glad, Raider, Raider + Boba.

 

Boba of course, died very quickly...  But, Red Die Hell.  Didn't drop the ISD or the Raiders...  Got Gladiator down to 1 hull, and he actually had to throw Gladiator IN FRONT of the ISD to stop the ISD from flying off the board...  So he traded a 90pt Gladiator for the 180pt Vader-Toting ISD....  So close to a win with that one.

 

 

Second Game, was against a two ship Rhymerball (Finally, a Test!)

 

I did manage to completely pull apart and neutralise the Rhymer ball.  I think he got all of 3 Bomber shots off at me, and the rest of the time, was activating 5 FC'd bombers to try to kill the A-Wings.

 

Again, Red Die Hell...  Demolisher was stripped of all shields and made it through, because on 3 occasions I was throwing Double-Red Dice at it, I was rolling Double-Blank...  Three Times...

 

ISD lived because my Y-Wings, all game, rolled only 1 hit-crit, and 2 Hits...  Out of maybe 12 shots...  Black Die Hell...

 

 

SO, I know I can neutralise the Ball now.  I'm feeling a little better...  I'm definitely having to trade the 3rd AF for GR75s when the time comes though, for Bomber Command and some other flexibility stuff....

 

And maybe switch to Ackbar...  If I can't modify dice.  I might just have to throw more Dice instead.

[Parkdaddy 626]

Throwing on 1-2 enhanced armament might be a cheaper alternative to Ackbar while still letting you keep your Garm tokens. Just a thought. For point trading, though (to keep your bid), I'd ask how often you used the ECMs on Gallant Haven versus the other AFs, and choose to trade the ECMs less used for your extra dice upgrade of choice.