G-8 vs Engine Techs

[Drasnighta 26,832]

You must have resolved the Navigate Command to allow the Engine Techs to happen.

 

And General Madine happens when you resolve the Navigate Command.

 

 

Ergo, Madine has come and gone before the ET Maneuver.

[reegsk 742]

Good. The fewer ambiguous things, the better.

[Hedgehobbit 419]

If G8 can affect ET, then the Empire gets a mild counter to Demo rushing in to point blank from accross the board, I'm still annoyed that the rebels don't get such shiny toys, and I get confirmation that the way the speed/ET mechanic is worded/FAQ'd is a mess.

 

The issue I have is one of range. As it stands, G-8 normally only affects ships that are already in shooting range. So it doesn't prevent them from closing but does prevent them from leaving. If G-8 works on ET, then it's possible for one ship to execute a maneuver at speed 3 to close without G-8 affecting it. Another ship can do a maneuver at speed 2, entering the distance 5 of the G-8 ship which can stop the second ship from moving further. Granted a Speed 3 maneuver isn't exactly identical to a Speed 2 + a Speed 1 but that fact that one can be affected whereas the other can't be is an issue. 

[Lyraeus 4,759]

 

If G8 can affect ET, then the Empire gets a mild counter to Demo rushing in to point blank from accross the board, I'm still annoyed that the rebels don't get such shiny toys, and I get confirmation that the way the speed/ET mechanic is worded/FAQ'd is a mess.

 

The issue I have is one of range. As it stands, G-8 normally only affects ships that are already in shooting range. So it doesn't prevent them from closing but does prevent them from leaving. If G-8 works on ET, then it's possible for one ship to execute a maneuver at speed 3 to close without G-8 affecting it. Another ship can do a maneuver at speed 2, entering the distance 5 of the G-8 ship which can stop the second ship from moving further. Granted a Speed 3 maneuver isn't exactly identical to a Speed 2 + a Speed 1 but that fact that one can be affected whereas the other can't be is an issue. 

 

It would prevent that last speed 1 move into black range. THAT is more valuable than most everyone realizes. I saw that just from watching the twitch videos of Clon's games.

[Gowtah 196]

[...]

 

 

That's the point and why I qualified the counter to be mild. A speed 3 demo can close in to black range from out of range, but it requires skill and it is prone to error. A speed 3 ET demo will always be right up your pants from accross the dance floor if it wants to. And G8 could be the only counter.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Gowtah

[Hastatior 1,444]

When I first started reading this thread i was planted squarely on the logical fence.

 

having some background in coding and therefore some stack/logic resolution training I could see how one interpretation could use the ET text as inviolable. A closed function if you will, that while you have to do a determine course the speed is and always will be hard-coded by the card.

 

On the other hand nothing states this to be true, and several excellent examples have come up in this thread that show this is in fact logically inconsistent.

 

It seems to me now that clearly G8s should stop engine techs as they do (and MUST) be resolved as a maneouver and have to have all of the rules and caveats of a manouver otherwise you open a whole nasty can of worms.

 

Perhaps if we think of the number on the dial as your "speed" and what you actually use to move your ship as the "effective speed". In the same way you ignore your "speed" when you ET and use an "effective speed" of 1, the same way you ignore your "speed" and use an "effective speed" when colliding, G8 will always and by definition affect your "effective speed".

 

Think of the example of G8s affecting a speed 4 ship, as I see it, your "speed" is 4 so you use the speed 4 nav chart, but your "effective speed" is 3. Just like if you engine tech your "speed" is X but your G8-affected ship has an "effective speed" of zero.

 

In any case, has anyone submitted this question to FFG? Might as well get out ahead of it before nerds have slap fights and marriages end.

[Green Knight 9,746]

In any case, has anyone submitted this question to FFG? Might as well get out ahead of it before nerds have slap fights and marriages end.

 

Just so we're clear: I'm NOT divorcing my wife over this!

[Gowtah 196]

Think of the example of G8s affecting a speed 4 ship, as I see it, your "speed" is 4 so you use the speed 4 nav chart, but your "effective speed" is 3. Just like if you engine tech your "speed" is X but your G8-affected ship has an "effective speed" of zero.

 

I wonder if that's how things happen with the nav chart due to the G8 timing being "before". Speed 4 or speed 3 nav chart? Do you declare G8 before the notch and then look at the corresponding nav chart? Can you do it after and effectively reduce the speed with an already chosen nav chart? Can the ship then overlap the tool, even though it's strictly forbidden except for overlaps?

[Hastatior 1,444]

 

Think of the example of G8s affecting a speed 4 ship, as I see it, your "speed" is 4 so you use the speed 4 nav chart, but your "effective speed" is 3. Just like if you engine tech your "speed" is X but your G8-affected ship has an "effective speed" of zero.

 

I wonder if that's how things happen with the nav chart due to the G8 timing being "before". Speed 4 or speed 3 nav chart? Do you declare G8 before the notch and then look at the corresponding nav chart? Can you do it after and effectively reduce the speed with an already chosen nav chart? Can the ship then overlap the tool, even though it's strictly forbidden except for overlaps?

 

I was wondering this myself.

 

but really the card is very clear that it takes effect BEFORE the "determine course" step, which is before you notch your tool. So you say "ok, i'm going to G8 your ship" before your opponent moves it, he can even change his speed etc. before notching (as it states you can do it at this point in the determine course). This of course, raises all sorts of other questions like if you G8 someone down from speed 3 to speed 2, can they spend a token or dial to go back UP to speed 3 if their max speed is 3? God this whole thing has exposed the dark underbelly of how poorly FFG has managed the term and execution of the concept of "speed" in this game. I'm confused again, but for different reasons (kinda like arguing with my wife)

[Hastatior 1,444]

God the implications are litterally starting to hurt my head, so I'm going to go think of something else.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

It is a temporary adjustment so they can't increase to a speed they don't have and if they did then it would just be 1 less than the speed that they should move normally. 

 

This also means that they are now going faster than they wanted just to get the right maneuver in

[TheEasternKing 607]

It seems pretty straight forwards to me.

 

Before determine course step is resolved, GR8 is triggered, ships speed is temporarily reduced by one to minimum of speed zero, at this stage the ship in question can increase it's speed with a Navigate Command or Token, or both, but only if it has room for that increase, as the GR8 reduction is removed as soon as the ship completes its maneuver, and it cannot end at an illegal speed, there is no confusion here.

 

So ship is at speed 1 (VSD), GR8 takes it to zero, commander resolves a Nav command increasing the ships speed by 1, it now has an effective speed of 1, it moves 1 joint, GR8 effect ends, the ship is now at speed 2 (legal)

 

Ship Two is at speed 2 (VSD) GR8 takes it speed to 1, commander cannot resolve a Nav command (or token) as it would place the ship at speed 3 and that is not a legal speed for a VSD, so the commander resolves a speed 1 maneuver.

 

As for the does it effect engine techs, if we accept that a ship completes 2 separate determine course steps (normal move) & (engine tech move) the GR8 could only be used on one of them as it is an exhaust to generate its effect. In that case yes GR8 should be able to effect the ET maneuver, but so far according to FFG rulings (negative) things that effect ship speed or joint clicks are not applied to the ET maneuver, so until we hear from FFG we have 2 contradictory states, that only they can resolve.

Edited May 31, 2016 by TheEasternKing

[Amanal 2,557]

The G-8 triggers before the Determine Course Step, so you will suffer a temporary reduction to your speed, it was say 2 so you now have a temporary speed of 1.

 

The Maneuver Command triggers during the Determine Course Step, so you will increase your speed to 3, this does not however alter the temporary speed as that was a previously determined effect and resolved.

 

So wouldn't you move 1?

[Lyraeus 4,759]

The G-8 triggers before the Determine Course Step, so you will suffer a temporary reduction to your speed, it was say 2 so you now have a temporary speed of 1.

 

The Maneuver Command triggers during the Determine Course Step, so you will increase your speed to 3, this does not however alter the temporary speed as that was a previously determined effect and resolved.

 

So wouldn't you move 1?

It temporarily reduces your speed by 1. That means the speed you are moving. So if you speed up to 3 then it would reduce that by 1. 

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

 

The G-8 triggers before the Determine Course Step, so you will suffer a temporary reduction to your speed, it was say 2 so you now have a temporary speed of 1.

 

The Maneuver Command triggers during the Determine Course Step, so you will increase your speed to 3, this does not however alter the temporary speed as that was a previously determined effect and resolved.

 

So wouldn't you move 1?

It temporarily reduces your speed by 1. That means the speed you are moving. So if you speed up to 3 then it would reduce that by 1. 

 

 

Yeah, I agree, I think this aspect of it is pretty clear.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

I had to think about his for a bit and I came to a conclusion, when you ram with Engine Techs, you temporarily reduce your speed right? So G8 should work like that hat which means it should be able stop an ET move.  

[Amanal 2,557]

 

The G-8 triggers before the Determine Course Step, so you will suffer a temporary reduction to your speed, it was say 2 so you now have a temporary speed of 1.

 

The Maneuver Command triggers during the Determine Course Step, so you will increase your speed to 3, this does not however alter the temporary speed as that was a previously determined effect and resolved.

 

So wouldn't you move 1?

It temporarily reduces your speed by 1. That means the speed you are moving. So if you speed up to 3 then it would reduce that by 1. 

 

So, are you saying that the timing of effects has no bearing here?

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

The G-8 triggers before the Determine Course Step, so you will suffer a temporary reduction to your speed, it was say 2 so you now have a temporary speed of 1.

 

The Maneuver Command triggers during the Determine Course Step, so you will increase your speed to 3, this does not however alter the temporary speed as that was a previously determined effect and resolved.

 

So wouldn't you move 1?

It temporarily reduces your speed by 1. That means the speed you are moving. So if you speed up to 3 then it would reduce that by 1.

So, are you saying that the timing of effects has no bearing here?

... reduce its speed by 1 to a minimum of speed 0 until the end of the maneuver

It doesn't assign you a static temporary speed; it dynamically decreases your speed by 1. If your speed is 2, it is temporarily 1. If it subsequently becomes 3 before the effect ends, it is then temporarily 2.

... IMO.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

 

 

 

The G-8 triggers before the Determine Course Step, so you will suffer a temporary reduction to your speed, it was say 2 so you now have a temporary speed of 1.

 

The Maneuver Command triggers during the Determine Course Step, so you will increase your speed to 3, this does not however alter the temporary speed as that was a previously determined effect and resolved.

 

So wouldn't you move 1?

It temporarily reduces your speed by 1. That means the speed you are moving. So if you speed up to 3 then it would reduce that by 1.

So, are you saying that the timing of effects has no bearing here?

... reduce its speed by 1 to a minimum of speed 0 until the end of the maneuver

It doesn't assign you a static temporary speed; it dynamically decreases your speed by 1. If your speed is 2, it is temporarily 1. If it subsequently becomes 3 before the effect ends, it is then temporarily 2.

... IMO.

 

The timing has to be prior to the step. FFG looks to be setting a precedent that they want things to happen before, and after a step. There are not many things you as a player can do to an opponent outside a prescribed time. Actually none come to mind.

 

There is no "blue player" to use a MTG term. You get your action and your opponent gets to do his things as normal. Due to this, the timing of temporarily reduced speed lasts throughout both steps of the Ship Movement step. So your speed is temporarily reduced by 1 until you finish your maneuver. Your current speed matters not since whatever it is at the start of your maneuver will be temporarily reduced by 1

[Amanal 2,557]

 

 

 

The G-8 triggers before the Determine Course Step, so you will suffer a temporary reduction to your speed, it was say 2 so you now have a temporary speed of 1.

 

The Maneuver Command triggers during the Determine Course Step, so you will increase your speed to 3, this does not however alter the temporary speed as that was a previously determined effect and resolved.

 

So wouldn't you move 1?

It temporarily reduces your speed by 1. That means the speed you are moving. So if you speed up to 3 then it would reduce that by 1.

So, are you saying that the timing of effects has no bearing here?

... reduce its speed by 1 to a minimum of speed 0 until the end of the maneuver

It doesn't assign you a static temporary speed; it dynamically decreases your speed by 1. If your speed is 2, it is temporarily 1. If it subsequently becomes 3 before the effect ends, it is then temporarily 2.

... IMO.

 

 

Can you supply a page number for where you get this from?

 

I will take Page 5 of the Rules Reference as my play guide.

 

Not saying that I won't get zapped in a FAQ down the line but for now I would use my best judgement and the rules as written.

[clontroper5 4,233]

Why is this discussion still spinning its wheels?

I'm pretty sure its unanswerable until an faq/confirmation email from ffg

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Why is this discussion still spinning its wheels?

I'm pretty sure its unanswerable until an faq/confirmation email from ffg

Shhh. You had your time spinning your wheels with Instigator. 

[Green Knight 9,746]

Before an enemy ship at distance 1-5 resolves the Determine Course step, you may exhaust this card to temporarily reduce its speed by 1 to a minimum of speed 0 until the end of the maneuver.

 

Looking at the text, I cannot figure out why they would word it like that and not have it include ET moves (or Quantum Storm for that matter). 

 

Hardly conclusive evidence, I know, but at least I can say "told you so" when (if) we get a ruling.

[TheEasternKing 607]

• Effects with a command icon as a header, such as “NAV:,” can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.

 

Hang on a Minute.....

 

 

So, above.  I have a Nav Command.  I resolve the command at the appropriate time, which is - during the determine course step of my movement...  My Nav Command lets me Change the Yaw/Speed during my Current Maneuver.

 

It also lets me Activate Engine Techs...  However, Engine Techs does not RESOLVE at that time.  It has its own Resolution time...  Which is After you execute a maneuver

 

 

 

Effects state 'resolving'.  Rather than 'resolved'....

 

 

After reading this in the ET thread, I am about to do a 180 on Gr-8 affecting the ET maneuver. And now I understand why FFG said that the negatives on crits do not affect it either.

 

I had looked at the ET maneuver as a separate navigation from normal navigation, and thus fully acceptable as a target for the GR-8, except it is not really, it is something that specifically happens after you determine course, and only if you spend a Nav dial or token.  

 

 

The Determine course step is a specific point in time

 

Reveal Command Dial

Resolve Command if Squadrons : Repair

Fire ; Resolve Concentrate Fire

Use GR-8

Determine Course : Resolve Navigation Command Dial & or Token

Finish Determine Course step

Resolve Engine Tech

 

There is no determine course step for the ET maneuver, you just execute a speed 1 maneuver after you have resolved the Determine Course step.

Edited June 7, 2016 by TheEasternKing

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

 

• Effects with a command icon as a header, such as “NAV:,” can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.

 

Hang on a Minute.....

 

 

So, above.  I have a Nav Command.  I resolve the command at the appropriate time, which is - during the determine course step of my movement...  My Nav Command lets me Change the Yaw/Speed during my Current Maneuver.

 

It also lets me Activate Engine Techs...  However, Engine Techs does not RESOLVE at that time.  It has its own Resolution time...  Which is After you execute a maneuver

 

 

 

Effects state 'resolving'.  Rather than 'resolved'....

 

 

After reading this in the ET thread, I am about to do a 180 on Gr-8 affecting the ET maneuver. And now I understand why FFG said that the negatives on crits do not affect it either.

 

I had looked at the ET maneuver as a separate navigation from normal navigation, and thus fully acceptable as a target for the GR-8, except it is not really, it is something that specifically happens after you determine course, and only if you spend a Nav dial or token.  

 

 

The Determine course step is a specific point in time

 

Reveal Command Dial

Resolve Command if Squadrons : Repair

Fire ; Resolve Concentrate Fire

Use GR-8

Determine Course : Resolve Navigation Command Dial & or Token

Finish Determine Course step

Resolve Engine Tech

 

There is no determine course step for the ET maneuver, you just execute a speed 1 maneuver after you have resolved the Determine Course step.

 

 

If there is no Determine Course step during the Engine Tech maneuver, when do you decide what direction you're going?

 

Determine Course is a step within resolving a maneuver.  Every maneuver you make includes a Determine Course step.