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JsBingley

Is the Arkham Horror LCG the end of LotR LCG?

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It's similar to LotR in that it's a co-op only - note the other words I wrote. I was more worried about it basically being yet another take on every other Arkham game FFG has made, in case that wasn't clear.

I would be more worried about the over-selling of lovecraft games before I worry about ANOTHER lovecraft game taking out the ONLY lotr game haha.

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I would be more worried about the over-selling of lovecraft games before I worry about ANOTHER lovecraft game taking out the ONLY lotr game haha.

I worry equally about all things worth worrying about :)

 

Now, the detail I'm most interested in about the game, if it's real, is who's working on it. If it's the usual names they're spreading themselves thin, and another game could be sacrificed. If they've got new staff I'd worry about the game itself. Damned if they do, damned if they don't :P

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Whatever happens, if this game ends without ever exploring the themes of corruption, artifacts, magic rings, etc I will be extremely disappointed.

Pssssh... Christopher Tolkien is 94... Soon he will kick the bucket and the Silmarilion IP will be passed on to more sensible hands... so we might just get First and Second Age expansions in just a few years, just as the Saga boxes are coming to an end. I get why Christopher has been very reserved with exploiting the rights of his father's work but honestly the LotR LCG is a fine product, worthy to retell these modern classics tales.

 

 

Christopher Tolkien has done tremendous work protecting the writings that he compiled, edited and published, and the Tolkien Estate will continue his good work keeping those properties out of the hands of money men who want to turn them into action-adventure garbage that spits on the themes therein.

 

FFG's lax attitude to the source material is exactly the kind of thing that puts the Estate off dealing with people.

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Lord of the Rings LCG has been anything but lax on their interpretations of Tolkien's work and even their custom made content is a good measure of quality above "garbage". Read the Antlered Crowd designer notes to see with how much care and humility Matt and Caleb have approached the IP. Nothing can spoil the original works anyway, especially if one is picky as to whom they work with. There is a difference between between hoarding and being selective. The stories in Silmarilion are overflowing with theme that begs to be retold in other mediums. Yes games (and movies) will never compare to the book as a medium, but should we discard them as worthless? I think not. That is a purist's perspective and a loss for everyone involved.

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Christopher is terrible and I for one will be glad when he's no longer in charge. 

 

What a massively disrespectful and insulting post.

If not for Christopher The Lord of the Rings would not exist, and the other writings would certainly not have for their way out of J.R.R.s disordered piles of scribbles and notes.

Publishing his father's writing is his life's work, and if you are at all a fan of the Silmarillion etc. you owe him a massive debt of gratitude.

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Christopher is terrible and I for one will be glad when he's no longer in charge. 

 

What a massively disrespectful and insulting post.

If not for Christopher The Lord of the Rings would not exist, and the other writings would certainly not have for their way out of J.R.R.s disordered piles of scribbles and notes.

Publishing his father's writing is his life's work, and if you are at all a fan of the Silmarillion etc. you owe him a massive debt of gratitude.

That's twice now. Is your last name Tolkien?

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Christopher is terrible and I for one will be glad when he's no longer in charge. 

 

What a massively disrespectful and insulting post.

If not for Christopher The Lord of the Rings would not exist, and the other writings would certainly not have for their way out of J.R.R.s disordered piles of scribbles and notes.

Publishing his father's writing is his life's work, and if you are at all a fan of the Silmarillion etc. you owe him a massive debt of gratitude.

 

Are you aware that among Tolkien scholars there is some grade of skepticism as how Christopher Tolkien managed his father unpublished writing?

 

http://www.amazon.com/Arda-Reconstructed-Creation-Published-Silmarillion/dp/1611460891?ie=UTF8&keywords=arda%20reconstructed&qid=1464180416&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

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Christopher is terrible and I for one will be glad when he's no longer in charge. 

 

What a massively disrespectful and insulting post.

If not for Christopher The Lord of the Rings would not exist, and the other writings would certainly not have for their way out of J.R.R.s disordered piles of scribbles and notes.

Publishing his father's writing is his life's work, and if you are at all a fan of the Silmarillion etc. you owe him a massive debt of gratitude.

 

Are you aware that among Tolkien scholars there is some grade of skepticism as how Christopher Tolkien managed his father unpublished writing?

 

 

Yes. Pure nonsense by bored "academics" trying to make money via brand-recognition and conspiracy theories.

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Lord of the Rings LCG has been anything but lax on their interpretations of Tolkien's work and even their custom made content is a good measure of quality above "garbage". Read the Antlered Crowd designer notes to see with how much care and humility Matt and Caleb have approached the IP. Nothing can spoil the original works anyway, especially if one is picky as to whom they work with. There is a difference between between hoarding and being selective. The stories in Silmarilion are overflowing with theme that begs to be retold in other mediums. Yes games (and movies) will never compare to the book as a medium, but should we discard them as worthless? I think not. That is a purist's perspective and a loss for everyone involved.

 

For clarity, my use of "Action-adventure garbage" was directed at the films. 

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You can't turn an Epic (in the classical term) into a movie and have it be just as good as the book, still not garbage though. Would you rather the movie was never made? I think we'd be culturally poorer for it. And by made I mean "made with a realistic budget".

Edited by FetaCheese

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The value of Christopher's work can't be understated, but he doesn't have to take it to the grave with him.

 

He isn't taking anything to the grave. He edited and published the works for everyone to enjoy.

 

 

There are plenty of fantasy action adventure franchises (films, games, cards etc.) in the world if you're happy with loose adaptations of Tolkien. The Silmarillion stamp won't make them better or worse or more authentic. Those are the products The Estate restricts the licence from. If a filmmaker came to Christopher and could give genuine assurances of producing The Fall of Gondolin authentically for screen the licence would be granted.

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Would you rather the movie was never made?

 

Yes. 

 

 

We've not lost anything "culturally" because there already exists an entire genre of fiction derivative of Tolkien, just as his own writing was derivative of older epics. Tolkien is a single step in a broader cultural progression. An adaptation of one book (sanitised for modern audiences, naturally) isn't a significant loss.

Edited by Edheliad

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The only one spouting nonsense right now is you. Christopher is a massive control freak who has squandered his father's legacy. His removal will hopefully open the world up. 

 

 

Which movie studio do you work for? Or the Saul Zaentz company? They're the ones who profited from the constant use of The Lord of the Rings and Hobbit licences.

 

Did the books rot away while I wasn't looking? What has been squandered?

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The biggest issue here is that we have never been in this situation before. CoC and Invasion were old and/or unpopular. I mean, compare the number of BGG fans.

Invasion-575

Cthulhu-384

Meanwhile for Lotr

2400

Netrunner

Over 3000

Lotr is one of their top games, and people are still buying it. Will they cancel a game of that magnitude just because another game came? My guess is no.

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Personally, I think the world would be a better place without Tauriel.  I enjoyed the LOTR movies more, but they did needless violence to the source material (also true of Rankin-Bass as well, of course).  I admire the work that Christopher Tolkien has done and feel I owe him a debt of gratitude for the good things he's done.  Despite his advanced age, I think it is in very poor form to cheer for the man's funeral.

 

Having said that, I think this game we enjoy demonstrates consistent thematic and also detailed respect to the source material.  I would *love* to see FFG get rights to all the Tolkien material, and I think the world would be a better place for it.  I'm not rooting for Christopher Tolkien to die, but I would like to see the Tolkien's estate attitude soften towards those who have shown they can treat the source material with respect.

 

Also, I'm not sure the Tolkien estate is the only thing standing in the way of First age saga expansions.  The LOTR is far, far more famous, and moving time (and place) would instantly make nearly all our unique cards unthematic.  FFG already has the rights to the appendices, which contain enough information for saga expansions around the end of the second age and beginning of the third, and I think those would be awesome -- but I'm not at all expecting that to happen.  If not those, would the Silmarillion really be of interest to FFG?

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Personally, I think the world would be a better place without Tauriel.  I enjoyed the LOTR movies more, but they did needless violence to the source material (also true of Rankin-Bass as well, of course).  I admire the work that Christopher Tolkien has done and feel I owe him a debt of gratitude for the good things he's done.  Despite his advanced age, I think it is in very poor form to cheer for the man's funeral.

 

Having said that, I think this game we enjoy demonstrates consistent thematic and also detailed respect to the source material.  I would *love* to see FFG get rights to all the Tolkien material, and I think the world would be a better place for it.  I'm not rooting for Christopher Tolkien to die, but I would like to see the Tolkien's estate attitude soften towards those who have shown they can treat the source material with respect.

 

Also, I'm not sure the Tolkien estate is the only thing standing in the way of First age saga expansions.  The LOTR is far, far more famous, and moving time (and place) would instantly make nearly all our unique cards unthematic.  FFG already has the rights to the appendices, which contain enough information for saga expansions around the end of the second age and beginning of the third, and I think those would be awesome -- but I'm not at all expecting that to happen.  If not those, would the Silmarillion really be of interest to FFG?

You mean like these First Age sagas?

https://talesfromthecards.wordpress.com/first-age/

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The only one spouting nonsense right now is you. Christopher is a massive control freak who has squandered his father's legacy. His removal will hopefully open the world up. 

 

I don't know if I want the world opened up. Part of what makes a story deep and epic is the unknown. For instance, some of the magic of Tolkien's world was lost for me when I discovered Arda was mapped beyond Middle Earth.

 

I would rather the whole epic be wrapped up with a definitive period, and allow my imagination to wander in all that is left unsaid, than for ever more details to be ever more forthcoming and spoiling the joy of my curiosity and imaginings.

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Lotr is one of their top games, and people are still buying it. Will they cancel a game of that magnitude just because another game came? My guess is no.

 

True, but popularity is not the only consideration.

 

The most obvious blockage would be an expiration of their license, and an inability to extend/renew it. I'm sure FFG would be willing to offer quite a bit of cash to keep the LotR license, but that's not a guarantee they would succeed.

 

Another thing to consider is the rate of new fanatics. Although there are many new players catching the LotR LCG bug, and there will always be new people who will go all-in and want to get all expansions, it's a simple fact that the longer the game goes the fewer people will be willing to go all-in. Some people see a massive game as exciting, while many others see it as demoralizing.

 

"What, you mean there are over fifty expansions - or more like 100 counting nightmare decks? And I'd basically have to get them all to fully participate in the metagame, understand what the podcasters are talking about, and be able to make most of the decks listed online? Ug, overwhelming. Pass."

 

In addition, even the hard-core fans can eventually reach their limits. Every cycle, there is another wave of people deciding they've had enough, and they stop buying. Or their buying dramatically reduces.

 

Shadows of Mirkwood and Dwarrodelf sell like hotcakes. Against the Shadow does fairly well, but is noticeably less. And I bet every cycle thereafter has a decrease. They still sell a lot, of course, but new players are simply less likely to buy later expansions. And LotR isn't the greatest game for jumping around in your purchases. Sure, it can be done, but you're going to have a pretty rough time with many of the later releases if you don't have a bulky card pool of earlier ones.

 

At some point, FFG has to ask themselves whether the continuing drop in activity is worth the expense and effort of putting out more expansions. Even if they do the math and decide a new expansion won't be worth much, they will likely still continue to do so for a while simply because new people are more likely to buy at least a little bit for a game perceived to still be supported. But at some point, even that won't be worth it.

 

Just to be clear, I have zero reason to believe LotR is anywhere near its end. I'm just pointing out that popularity alone is not guaranteed to mean the game will continue. They could be selling a million core set boxes a month, and it still wouldn't be worth putting out more expansions if only a small handful of dedicated fanatics were to buy it.

Edited by JohnGarrison1870

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