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Kallisti

Book of Eibon question...

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Book of Eibon - Attach to a character.  Attached character's controller cannot have more than 5 cards in his hand.  If that player has more than 5 cards in hand, that player must choose and discard cards from his hand until 5 cards remain.

I played this on my opponent's character when he had 6 cards in hand.  He had to discard down to 5.   That's simple enough.  The question is what happens during his draw phase?  We came up with these options:

a) He cannot draw as that'd violate the card limit.

b) He draws 2 cards, has a hand size of 7, discards down to 5.

c) He draws 1 card, discards down to 5.  Draws the second card, discards down to 5.

We chose option 'c' as it seemed to follow all the rules, but we're curious if there are alternate opinions.

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I would put my vote on ©.  If he has 5 cards...he can still draw because the condition is not met.  He draws a card during his draw step, which then makes the condition true...requiring a discard.  And the same thing for the second card.

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... Hum ...

I did'nt consider A as a valid possibility for 2 causes :

-1 the card doesn't state that you can't draw as long as you got 5 cards in hand.

- 2 The card specifies that in case you got more than 5 cards, you do something. So, that means that you should encounter this possibility (having more than 5 cards)

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PRODIGEE said:

 

-1 the card doesn't state that you can't draw as long as you got 5 cards in hand.

 

In fact the card states that "Attached character's controller cannot have more than 5 cards in his hand."

Of course is really boring you begin to think in what it could means, but in a previous card, very similar to this one, concretelly The First Manhattan (FC U89), has a more explained text: "bla, bla... each opponent must discard down to 5 cards at the end of his turn, if able." This card lets you to draw cards and maintain the cards in your hand until the End of Turn: simply and clear.

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PRODIGEE said:

 

If I do remember well, there was something one the "Cannot" clausis ion the rules or FAQ .....

Will see tomorrow and tell you what I'll find !

 

 

Literally says:

(v1.0) "Cannot"

The word "cannot", when appearing in card text, is

absolute. Effects that attempt the described action

will not affect any card that "cannot" be affected

by such an effect.

 

I am not sure what to say about preocupado.gif

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Hum ... Considering drawing is a game effect, I don't know what to say about that.

The "Cannot" is stronger than the game effect ... So this might lead to this :

- You've got 4 card in hand, you can draw only one card

-You've got 5 card in hand, you draw 0 cards

Hope we'll have an answer from FFG on that one....

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The effect of Book of Eibon target the player'hand not a particular card, so I'm not sure the "cannot" rules works here.

The Book of Eibon doesn't skip your draw phase. You draw your 2 cards and discard until you have 5 cards. We play this card like that but may be wrongly.
 

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Marius said:

The book doesn't say "cannot draw", but "cannot have more than 5 cards."

The drawing is a single action, so, they draw 2, then discard down to 5 again.

Sorry, but we can argue that "draw is increase the hand, so you cannot draw cards to increase your hand over five" too.

And clearly specifies that you cannot have more than five cards at any moment... doesn't say that "at the end of the fase" and it isn't a Response nor a Forced Response!

The First Manhattan specifies the moment in which must be triggered, but this one is a Passive Effect, which is present always: before, during and after the draw fase.

What does it means "cannot is absolute"?

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Bielius said:

Sorry, but we can argue that "draw is increase the hand, so you cannot draw cards to increase your hand over five" too.

And clearly specifies that you cannot have more than five cards at any moment... doesn't say that "at the end of the fase" and it isn't a Response nor a Forced Response!

The First Manhattan specifies the moment in which must be triggered, but this one is a Passive Effect, which is present always: before, during and after the draw fase.

What does it means "cannot is absolute"?

Cannot is absolute means that when one card says "you must" and another card says "you can't" the latter will always win.

Cards in hand and cards drawn count an equal amount to your hand, and until they are in hand there is nothing preventing them to be drawn.

So, I'd rule like this on a tourney, until FAQed. I'll try to find out a definate answer, though, to stop all doubt.

 

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Marius said:

So, I'd rule like this on a tourney, until FAQed. I'll try to find out a definate answer, though, to stop all doubt.

 

if that involves emailing ffg good luck. i lost count of the number of times ive the times i emailed them and didnt get a response. when the site first changed over they seemed helpful, and even during the first league, but since then..........

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Marius said:

Cannot is absolute means that when one card says "you must" and another card says "you can't" the latter will always win. 

Clear and thanks!

Marius said:

Cards in hand and cards drawn count an equal amount to your hand, and until they are in hand there is nothing preventing them to be drawn.

So, I'd rule like this on a tourney, until FAQed. 

Seems the right way... but undoubtely needs rewording or clarification to be played with certainty.

Marius said:

I'll try to find out a definate answer, though, to stop all doubt.

That would be great! Thanks for trying it!!

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i really dont see why it needs re wording, it seems clear enough, even as marius has explained it, lets try not to nit pick every card that we can disagree on and read meanings into to try and change the play, this one works ok as described

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How do you think it works!?

As Marius explained if you have 5 cards in your hand:

  1. You draw two cards (in the Draw phase)
  2. You discard both immediately because you CANNOT have more than five cards in your hand.

Does it would be correct?

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darknight said:

i really dont see why it needs re wording, it seems clear enough, even as marius has explained it, lets try not to nit pick every card that we can disagree on and read meanings into to try and change the play, this one works ok as described

 

Wasn't trying to be nitpicky with this one.  The real reason it came up is that the deck I had constructed was made in such a manner as to eventually lock a player from being able to do anything.  There's domain destruction w/ torch the joint, card cost increase, discarding, etc.  Eventually you get them to 5 cards they can't play, hit them with the book, and hopefully have them locked.  

Of course, it just doesn't work as well if they do end up drawing anyway (which I do believe is the (unfortunately) correct interpretation.  i.e  they should draw 2 and discard down to 5.)

Which brings up another question...  Would they be allowed to play one of the cards if it were a Disrupt timing?  I'm still unclear as to the timing rules of passive effects.  Do they have disrupt/forced response timing, response timing, normal action timing, etc.  Expendible muscle is another of these.  His effect isn't listed as a response or disrupt, so it's a passive effect.  So if it gets wounded/goes insane during story resolution does it happen immediately (and thereby affecting the rest of the resolution possibly) or does it happen at the end of the story resolution with all the other response effects?  

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KallistiBRC said:

Which brings up another question...  Would they be allowed to play one of the cards if it were a Disrupt timing?  I'm still unclear as to the timing rules of passive effects.  Do they have disrupt/forced response timing, response timing, normal action timing, etc.  Expendible muscle is another of these.  His effect isn't listed as a response or disrupt, so it's a passive effect.  So if it gets wounded/goes insane during story resolution does it happen immediately (and thereby affecting the rest of the resolution possibly) or does it happen at the end of the story resolution with all the other response effects?

If being nitpicky is what needed to get a ruling that is generally accepted by all TO's, well, then that's fine and necessary. So, no problems there.

If you'll draw the disrupt: The passive effect doesn't allow more than 5 card in your hand, though, so the more than 5 cards can't exist in your hand simultaniously. This effect is faster than the disrupt. The disrupt can't disrupt the draw itself, since it wasn't in your hand, yet. When you play it, it would already be too late to 'roll back' to before the draw, since you won't have drawn the disrupt yet.

If the disrupt is in your hand before the draw, you can disrupt the draw.

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