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Intys Rule

Refusing to play against an opponent?

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I play games to have fun and not be cheated.  If those things don't happen i stop playing.

It is a risk you take by attending a tournament.  has everyone of my tournament opponents been fun? no.  have they all played within the parameters of the rules? no.  We all make mistakes.  

 

The higher the stakes the worse it gets.  

 

This comes up in Warmachine all the time.  "we were playing a fun, casually competitive game, until i forgot an ability and my opponent said too bad."  These people will quantify it as "i want to win and its a competitive event".  You allow them to do a redo because they seem friendly or you want their best game.  It is my big issue with the gaming community.  its all fun and games until it actually matters.

 

I really wish a company would put this line in their rules packets "if your opponent lets you correct mistakes (take backs) and you refuse the same treatment, they may throat punch you"  I mean not really that extreme but if you want to see me personally lose it, let me allow you to redo a positioning or change a ships activation to another ship after revealing dials, and then when i say "hey i forgot to move this squadron, do you mind" and say "too bad..." the urge to table flip rises.

 

In a past store tournament, WGNF911 (running the tourney) gave a very clear directive to players.  This is not a casual (relaxed) event and there really shouldn't be any take back-sees.  

 

I thought this was great.  It set the tone.  Not that it wasn't fun (it was a blast!) but it put the mindset on everyone that we all had to play without making mistakes or it was on us.  

 

I seem to recall in that tournament hearing so many times "oops I forgot" something and the player then saying "well that's on me."

 

While I don't think this kind of thing is a plague in Armada, it would be nice for all TOs to point out the level (relaxed, formal, premier, sith/jedi, etc.) before everybody goes out and plays.

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I play games to have fun and not be cheated.  If those things don't happen i stop playing.

It is a risk you take by attending a tournament.  has everyone of my tournament opponents been fun? no.  have they all played within the parameters of the rules? no.  We all make mistakes.  

 

The higher the stakes the worse it gets.  

 

This comes up in Warmachine all the time.  "we were playing a fun, casually competitive game, until i forgot an ability and my opponent said too bad."  These people will quantify it as "i want to win and its a competitive event".  You allow them to do a redo because they seem friendly or you want their best game.  It is my big issue with the gaming community.  its all fun and games until it actually matters.

 

I really wish a company would put this line in their rules packets "if your opponent lets you correct mistakes (take backs) and you refuse the same treatment, they may throat punch you"  I mean not really that extreme but if you want to see me personally lose it, let me allow you to redo a positioning or change a ships activation to another ship after revealing dials, and then when i say "hey i forgot to move this squadron, do you mind" and say "too bad..." the urge to table flip rises.

 

In a past store tournament, WGNF911 (running the tourney) gave a very clear directive to players.  This is not a casual (relaxed) event and there really shouldn't be any take back-sees.  

 

I thought this was great.  It set the tone.  Not that it wasn't fun (it was a blast!) but it put the mindset on everyone that we all had to play without making mistakes or it was on us.  

 

I seem to recall in that tournament hearing so many times "oops I forgot" something and the player then saying "well that's on me."

 

While I don't think this kind of thing is a plague in Armada, it would be nice for all TOs to point out the level (relaxed, formal, premier, sith/jedi, etc.) before everybody goes out and plays.

 

 

I agree.  You see it happen in all games.  players either eat their mistakes and learn from them or they try to get out of them for the immediate benefit.  it boils down to a saying "do you want a gift or a lesson"  the gift is the immediate gratitude while the lesson will be a longer lasting, delayed gratitude.  

 

if 2 people are having a friendly game and the guy goes... man i forgot to reveal my dial and bank it.... hey dude its ok go for it.  if they forget again that's on them.  my issue is when players take advantage of the good will they are shown and refuse to show it back.  those people are dicks.

 

the flip side is, that by enforcing the rules, you can be labeled as an unfun competitive player.

Edited by BergerFett

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Intys,

We have different opinions and recollections of how this event transpired. Fundamentally this comes down to whether I rushed you into missing an opportunity and I do not believe that I did. I believe that I afforded you as much time as we had in every step prior to that event. In my view there was more time involved then you imply, we spent a reasonable time looking at the dice before you made your comment and a long pause afterwards before I declared my intent to use my defense tokens.

I believe that after a long day of play that you made a mistake. Maybe you forgot that I had 2 shields on the hull zone that faced away from you and you thought you had done enough damage anyway, maybe the red critical you rolled misled you, or maybe you clean forgot, it isn't really that important. I believe this because after I declared my actions and seeing the outcome you said "Oh! I could have Screeded that". Yes you could have, but you didn't, and I am not required to allow you to retrospectively apply it at a premier competitive event. And despite your claim I don't believe that I tried to do something similar but in reverse throughout the game. I'd have been happy for you to call over the Judge as we had done already during the game, to clarify a critical effect, but you decided not to.

I'm not going to deny that I was aware that you were potentially going to make a mistake, I was, but I do not believe I rushed you into it, I merely let you make it. During the final my opponent had a chance to destroy my flagship but believing that my very poor maneuvering meant it would fly off the board in the final turn, he chose a different target. As it happened my maneuver dial meant it could drop to speed zero and survive, this wasn't intentional on my behalf I was very tired. I quickly realised that it could survive but I don't think anyone there believed I rushed him into making a mistake.

Intys, we are not going to agree about this, I've been weighing up posting a response because I didn't, and still don't, believe it would be productive discussion, it is your word against mine and between our views there is enough ambiguity to argue it either way. The only reason I'm writing this is because of the comments, insults and, shall we say, suggestions that others have made based of just one side of a disagreement where I am clearly personally identified, by the end of which you aren't the only person who felt their weekend had been unpleasant.

To everyone else, your are free to form whatever opinion you wish of me, but I would much rather you do so on the basis of your own experience rather than either of our polarized views of an incident I doubt anyone else saw.

If we do meet again I intend to treat you with the same respect due to any another player, I'll shake you by the hand and honestly wish you good luck, what course of action you take is for you to decide.

Regards

Laurence.
 

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In general, it is customary in competitive games to declare the beginning of the next step.  He should and basically has to do declare he is doing nothing.  Otherwise, you have to ask to go to defense.  You cannot go to the next step without assertion that he has finished his modifications.  

You can ask him to hurry if he is taking an inordinate amount of time, however, you should not be skipping to the next step if there are ramifications to uncertainty that you are certainly unwilling to change.  

 

He also had two different choices of modification to choose, both Screed and a reroll. 

 

Inty really should have a called a judge.  

 

--

 

In all of our games, Magic, Xwing, Armada, we declare: Done, or I leave (the dice as is) to declare end of attack modification.  There are no negatives to this play.  

In Magic, you would definitely not be allowed to proceed.  

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I am with Bail. I have made a habit of informing people what the next step is so that they know what they can do and everyone is on the same page. Some people hate it but I find that it makes things more transparent and people are not confused or rushed. I do have a bad habit of playing fast which some can attest makes them feel they must play faster. . .

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Yeah, talk it through. No one gets confused. Everyone can react. That being said: you want to be a schmoe? Don't fly on my board. I expect the attitude I offer to be returned. I play fierce but fair. You want sneaks? Maybe another player will accomodate. I won't and you better not even think about bringing nonsense. That will be an unpleasant conversation neither one of us will enjoy.

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We have different opinions and recollections of how this event transpired. Fundamentally this comes down to whether I rushed you into missing an opportunity and I do not believe that I did. I believe that I afforded you as much time as we had in every step prior to that event. In my view there was more time involved then you imply, we spent a reasonable time looking at the dice before you made your comment and a long pause afterwards before I declared my intent to use my defense tokens.

 

 

"I don't need a re-roll." may be the basis for a misunderstanding for "I am done." so the problem is, you took a misunderstanding, didn't ask for clarity and pushed ahead on the basis of that misunderstanding.

 

Waiting does not equal the comment "I am done", so perhaps you could have asked?

 

So yeah, you did rush him, because you bypassed his statement of completion.

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“Waiting does not equal the comment "I am done", so perhaps you could have asked?
So yeah, you did rush him, because you bypassed his statement of completion.”

And if in the game thus far there had never been a statement of completion? Surely it depends on what had been the practice in the game before this. If every turn Inty stated he was done, then going before he said that would clearly be a rush. BUT, if the game had moved on, after an appropriate pause on every other turn, then there is no reason why this one should be any different. From these posts we cannot tell for sure what the practice had been so far, but it sounds as if it was done on a pause to me.
 

What you are effectively saying is that when player A knows that player B hasn’t spotted something, rather than continue with their play in their usual manner thus far, that player A should flag it up to player B  in shining flashing lights, by saying ‘are you done’ for the first time ever! Either that approach should be taken every turn, or none.
 

In an ideal world perhaps we would all declare when we were done, but until that is seen as usual practice, or unless that approach is taken consistently through a game by individuals, then I don’t think its fair to infer a rush here.

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No worries guys.  I know the rules and I know my biggest missed opportunity was calling the TO over.  I was tired, I was hungry, it was a long day.  Point is he knew what he did was wrong, he knew I questioned it, but he decided to act the way he acted.  We were top table, he was flying Screed and ACMs.  I don't think he "didn't know" or misunderstood and his attitude after that event reflected it.  I didn't really want to play him after that and don't really want to play against him again.

 

 

I feel you. I like to be competitive but I hate dealing with gamesmen, manipulators, and cheaters. I'm the sort that tends to pick a fight when dudes pull that garbage, heh. You're a better man than I.

 

I'd probably just concede my game if I ever came across him in the future. If you don't want to play against him, there's isn't anything else you can do about it, unfortunately.

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I believe that after a long day of play that you made a mistake.

 

 

I think you were antsy to pull the trigger on that mistake and tried to capitalize in an unsporting way. You should have just asked if he was finished. That's what literally everyone else does in the history of tabletop gaming.

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I believe that after a long day of play that you made a mistake.

 

 

I think you were antsy to pull the trigger on that mistake and tried to capitalize in an unsporting way. You should have just asked if he was finished. That's what literally everyone else does in the history of tabletop gaming.

 

Yes and no. Long day, people are fried, and they want the games to speed up and end. If it was not intentional then it was just a basic human psychological factor. 

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I believe that after a long day of play that you made a mistake.

I think you were antsy to pull the trigger on that mistake and tried to capitalize in an unsporting way. You should have just asked if he was finished. That's what literally everyone else does in the history of tabletop gaming.

Hearing both sides of it, this is kind of my thought as well. I'm kind of a competitive dude: in competitive environments (ie, not just casual pickup games), I'm all about allowing my opponents to shoot themselves in the foot and then punishing them mercilessly for tactical misjudgments (not for forgetting to pick up a token or whatever). Thing is, in this kind of situation, I always clarify "are you done?" before moving on, so there is no possible ambiguity before I exploit the mistake. Because there's always going to be the temptation for the other guy to want take-backsies when it becomes immediately obvious what he should have done.

Even if you weren't trying to get away with something shady, you clearly didn't try not to be shady. There's a certain amount of due diligence involved with this kind of game, particularly in a situation where you're going to exploit the other guy's mistake.

I'd much prefer to win due to my opponent's poor--but fully mindful--judgement, than due to his forgetfulness.

Edited by Ardaedhel

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Why don't we just use a chess clock?

That way you know he's finished when he hits the clock.

And before someone says it would slow down the game it wouldn't.

They use chess clocks in speed play and they speed the game up.

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Man I think chess clocks are the only thing I legitimately miss about Warmachine. The only thing about them that gets iffy is interactions where it's player A's activation but he's interacting with player B in some fashion. Do you pass the time or not? On one hand, it feels kind of petty, but on the other hand if player B is going to spend a solid minute deliberating on defense token usage, it shouldn't come at player A's expense. So... probably just keep switching it back and forth but make sure you keep an eye on it.

 

It can make some players feel rushed, though. I enjoy that it makes it clear who is currently "the decider" and it makes games with slow players have an inevitable "kill switch" so you keep events chugging along nicely. It's rare I go to an Armada tournament that doesn't have a game go to time and it's usually the same guy every round just playing soooooo sloooooow.

 

But anyways - always check with your opponent. Make the game state clear. Ask for confirmation if it appears that your opponent is about to do something foolish (such as target a hull zone that damage can be redirected away from rather than a hull zone where it can't, for example); you don't necessarily have to provide them with the "best" answer, just ask for confirmaiton.

 

Basically: be the kind of dude(tte) you want to play against. If everyone had this mindset, minis games would be a better place.

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I believe that after a long day of play that you made a mistake.

 

 

I think you were antsy to pull the trigger on that mistake and tried to capitalize in an unsporting way. You should have just asked if he was finished. That's what literally everyone else does in the history of tabletop gaming.

 

Pretty sure you are in no position to declare what happened. Reality is this is between the two of them.

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Pretty sure now we can add a second "Command Casual" guideline:

 

1.  Squadrons are placed based on intent.  Talk it through.  Declare what's R1-2 of what.  Be as exact to the ruler as possible. 

Apparently as currently forum ruled: You can move the ruler around if its obviously within the move range so you can get an idea of where R1 to something is.  

It makes stuff faster.  

It makes it so that accidental bumps don't really change the game.  

 

2.  After finishing a step, declare: "I'm done."  If opponent does not do so, ask "Are you done?" before proceeding to next step.  Again, talk it through.  

 

In casual play, we also just hit the hit the table like in blackjack/poker for pass, or "I leave (the dice as is, no mods)."  

Edited by Blail Blerg

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I'm pretty sure if I roll my attack pool, and my opponent starts flipping Def Tokens, I'd categorically state "I'm not done, I'm going to use Screed to spend this dice, and flip this one." Or "I'm going to use my Ordnance Experts, to reroll this <insert number> of dice." 

 

If however I roll my attack pool, total up the damage, do not say a word, other than "Ok, that is 7 damage." My Opponent has every right to assume, after waiting a period of time, that I am in fact not going to start spending dice, or rerolling them or adding another dice and rolling it.

 

Once I see him/her start resolving Def Tokens, and I do not interrupt that to state I am not finished, then it is my fault, not my opponents, I do not know in any situation where I'd just let my opponent remove my choices for modifying my dice. All it takes it "I'm not done." There is no discussion, no argument, no recourse for them to claim, until you clearly signal you are done, you aren't done.

 

So going off what has been stated by both parties, I'm fully inclined to accept a mistake was made, and it was not poor sportsmanship, it is not my or anyone elses place in a tournament to remind you of every single thing you can or cannot do on your turn, people need to man up, and accept responsibility and stop all this crap about poor form, bad sportsman, "I don't wanna play him again." because YOU made an error, and rather than accept it, you malign your opponent in some twisted act of self justification for accepting no responsibility.

 

And if more people would, there would be a **** sight less threads like these.

 

Unless someone is cheating, or heckling, or trying deliberately to be nasty and offensive (and I mean actually being nasty and offensive, not, not reminding you you're about to make a mistake.) there is no reason to get bent out of shape, everyone makes mistakes, EVERYONE, usually the winner is the person who makes the least amount of mistakes on the day, so mistakes are an integral part of competitive play, accept it and move on. 

Edited by TheEasternKing

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Unless someone is cheating, or heckling, or trying deliberately to be nasty and offensive (and I mean actually being nasty and offensive, not, not reminding you you're about to make a mistake.) there is no reason to get bent out of shape, everyone makes mistakes, EVERYONE, usually the winner is the person who makes the least amount of mistakes on the day, so mistakes are an integral part of competitive play, accept it and move on.

God's. . . How many tournaments have I lost where I just needed to spend that engineering token and I forgot. . . So many. . .

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I remember this sort of discussion came up at least once, with someone saying they take the time to detail each and every action on the gaming table, including fleet composition and how it works (was it you Lyreus?) to make sure they're on the same page, and others, including me, saying that we're not babysitters and that each should be responsible for what he does while gaming competitively. Having read what both player say about what happened, this seems to me roughly the same issue. 

 

Furthermore, anothermorat wrote a very good and respective post, making pretty clear what his stance was and why he did what he did. Of course, I was not there so I can't tell for sure, but I tend to side with anothermorat on the matter, even tho I agree it's unpleasant when you are playing casually and friendly and all of a sudden your opponent becomes a rules nazi on a critical matter that would cost you the game. Anyway, it's not my opinion that matters. For the sake of the game and your local community, tho, I think you guys shouldn't hold a grudge against each other: next time just play with no take-backs and re-thinks and make sure no similar matter emerges again. 

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