Partially fulfilling card effects

[sappidus 531]

This is a silly semantic question, but, e.g., Lembas says:

"Discard Lembas to ready attached hero and heal 3 damage from it."

I think I won't be alone in saying that I've used it to heal 2, 1, or even 0 damage, just for the hero readying. But is this technically allowed? We cannot trigger card effects if we cannot pay the cost, like Emery's action with <3 cards in deck. Can we partially fulfill the results of an effect?

There's a relevant FAQ entry that refers to encounter cards discarding resources (you do what you can), but I was just curious if there was official word at some point for player cards,

[flightmaster101 1,568]

Yes. You can take partial benefit from a card, but you must always pay its full cost (I.e. Exhaust, discard, etc).

[sappidus 531]

Yes. You can take partial benefit from a card, but you must always pay its full cost (I.e. Exhaust, discard, etc).

Perhaps I should rephrase: where does it actually state we can do that? (Rules or ruling.)

[Lecitadin 282]

I think the rules mentions something like ''do whatever you can when playing a card''.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

This is the closest thing I can think of to an official writing on the subject.  From the FAQ:

 

"Q: If I can’t discard 3 resources from all of my heroes due to Bitter Wind (KD 56), do I have to partially fulfill the effect?

A: Yes, players should resolve as much of any “discard” effect as they are able to."

[donkler 199]

I think the relevant section in the FAQ is:

 

(1.15) The word “then”

If a card effect uses the word “then,” then the preceding effect must resolve successfully for the subsequent dependent effect to resolve.

 

Lembas does not specify a "then" effect, so you can do any combination of things on the card whether they can resolve successfully or not. Emery is different because her effect has a "then".

[PocketWraith 553]

But what if we then take those two FAQ pieces together? If an effect can only be resolved partially, but you resolve it as much as you can, does it count as having resolved 'successfully'? Is it successful if you just manage to try to resolve the effect (discard however many cards you have left), or only if you resolve the whole thing (discard the full 3 cards)?

[donkler 199]

But what if we then take those two FAQ pieces together? If an effect can only be resolved partially, but you resolve it as much as you can, does it count as having resolved 'successfully'? Is it successful if you just manage to try to resolve the effect (discard however many cards you have left), or only if you resolve the whole thing (discard the full 3 cards)?

 

Hmmm I would actually say yes that partial resolution does count as a success, but only because it breaks the game in several places to interpret it otherwise. Emery doesn't apply here since discarding 3 cards is part of the cost to put her into play. But looking at something like Imladris Stargazer:

Action: Exhaust Imladris Stargazer to choose a player. That player looks at the top 5 cards of his deck and then returns them to the top of his deck in any order.

 

If your deck has 4 cards left and you use her, her effect only partially resolves. What happens if the "then" clause never triggers? You just keep looking at those 4 cards without ever returning them? That seems like a weird card state.

[PocketWraith 553]

Huh. I'd forgotten Stargazer used 'then'.

So what about one I've come across in game - Ered-Nimrais Prospector. If I have only 2 cards in my deck, do I still get to shuffle one back in after I discard them? What if I have no cards in my deck, can I discard 0 cards and then shuffle one back in because I fulfilled as much of the previous effect as I could even though that was actually none of it?

Maybe one of us should actually send in a rules question, I'm not sure we're going to reach a conclusive answer just dicussing it.

[sappidus 531]

I am hesitant to submit an official query because I fear the result.

Not that I think they'd rule against partial fulfillment. But still...

[donkler 199]

Good point! What is the email address to send rules questions to?

[zeb 10]

Good point! What is the email address to send rules questions to?

The rules questions form is more difficult to find than before, but the Contact page sends you there: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

 

Good point! What is the email address to send rules questions to?

The rules questions form is more difficult to find than before, but the Contact page sends you there: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

 

 

When you are on any forum page, just scroll to the very bottom and there is a link for "Rules Questions" in the teeny tiny print there, down by the FFG copyright info.

[alogos 171]

Uh, the button is not displayed when using the new theme... weird.

[sappidus 531]

I don't think there was really any doubt about this, but for the record:

 

In general, you do as much as you can. For example, if you have only 2 damage on Treebeard when you use Lembas to heal him, you would heal those 2 damage. With regard to Ered Nimras Prospector, you could trigger his ability to discard the top 2 cards of your deck, but you could not trigger his ‘then’ effect because the word ‘then’ means you can only do the following if everything preceding it was fully resolved. In this case you have not fully resolved his ability because you only discarded 2 cards.

(The Prospector question was for the situation when you have <3 cards left in deck.)

Elsewhere, cmabr002 asked about Mirror of Galadriel and <10 cards... It's phrased, "Exhaust Mirror of Galadriel to search the top 10 cards of your deck for a card and add it to your hand. Shuffle the rest back into your deck. Then, discard a random card from your hand." Do you have to discard a random card in this case?

Although I did not ask Caleb this specifically, in his response he does use the phrase "if everything preceding it was fully resolved", so I believe you would indeed avoid discarding a card.

[Kakita Shiro 992]

So if I have less than 10 cards in the deck, Mirror is straight draw? Cool.

[cmabr002 292]

I feel like it makes some things feel just wrong...

 

Daeron's Runes

Mirror of Galadriel

Imladris Stargazer

Gildor Inglorion

Heed the Dream

Potentially Fili/Kili (if you use one, but the other is not in your deck, do you get to look at your entire deck's order and not have to reshuffle?)

Mustering the Rohirrim (If you have less than 10 cards, no shuffling of deck?)

 

Edit: I guess the FAQ makes you shuffle your deck in the case of Fili/Kili/Mustering the Rohirrim.  I believe there is something that says whenever you search your deck, you shuffle it unless stated otherwise.  But Mirror seems the most game-changing.

Edited May 27, 2016 by cmabr002

[krokodiler 24]

I asked Caleb about such effect, so, now it is official:

1. a. Mirror of Galadriel (Exhaust Mirror of Galadriel to search the top 10 cards of your deck for a card and add it to your hand. Shuffle the rest back into your deck. Then, discard a random card from your hand.) - what if there are less than 10 cards in my deck? Can I use Mirror then? If I can, do I discard a random card from my hand then?
>
> You can still search your deck if there are less than 10 cards. The rule there is to do as much as you can. You  still have to discard a card from your hand since the ‘then’ portion of the effect is based on having added a card to your hand.
>
> >  b. Daeron's Runes (Action: Draw 2 cards. Then, discard 1 card from your hand.) - what if there is only 1 card left in my deck? Can I use D'sR? And should I discard then?
>
> Again, do as much as you can - draw the last card of your deck. Then discard 1 card from your hand.

 

[PachiLOTR 9]

On 5/27/2016 at 0:49 PM, sappidus said:

I don't think there was really any doubt about this, but for the record:

Quote

"In general, you do as much as you can. For example, if you have only 2 damage on Treebeard when you use Lembas to heal him, you would heal those 2 damage. With regard to Ered Nimras Prospector, you could trigger his ability to discard the top 2 cards of your deck, but you could not trigger his ‘then’ effect because the word ‘then’ means you can only do the following if everything preceding it was fully resolved. In this case you have not fully resolved his ability because you only discarded 2 cards."

(The Prospector question was for the situation when you have <3 cards left in deck.)

Elsewhere, cmabr002 asked about Mirror of Galadriel and <10 cards... It's phrased, "Exhaust Mirror of Galadriel to search the top 10 cards of your deck for a card and add it to your hand. Shuffle the rest back into your deck. Then, discard a random card from your hand." Do you have to discard a random card in this case?

Although I did not ask Caleb this specifically, in his response he does use the phrase "if everything preceding it was fully resolved", so I believe you would indeed avoid discarding a card.

 

9 hours ago, krokodiler said:

I asked Caleb about such effect, so, now it is official:

1. a. Mirror of Galadriel (Exhaust Mirror of Galadriel to search the top 10 cards of your deck for a card and add it to your hand. Shuffle the rest back into your deck. Then, discard a random card from your hand.) - what if there are less than 10 cards in my deck? Can I use Mirror then? If I can, do I discard a random card from my hand then?
>
> You can still search your deck if there are less than 10 cards. The rule there is to do as much as you can. You  still have to discard a card from your hand since the ‘then’ portion of the effect is based on having added a card to your hand.
>
> >  b. Daeron's Runes (Action: Draw 2 cards. Then, discard 1 card from your hand.) - what if there is only 1 card left in my deck? Can I use D'sR? And should I discard then?
>
> Again, do as much as you can - draw the last card of your deck. Then discard 1 card from your hand.

 

So these contradict each other unless I'm misunderstanding something, right?  I guess I'll go with the more recent ruling because it was always what I thought should be the case.  I'm not really seeing a significant difference between Daeron's Runes and Ered Nimrais Prospector.

[dalestephenson 1,482]

I'm guessing the distinction for the prospector is that it is a response, and discarding three cards is the cost of the response.  However, I do agree that the most recent ruling is inconsistent with his explanation of 'then' in the first ruling.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

If a treachery said "Exhaust all heroes in play.  Then, deal each exhausted character 1 damage."  You wouldn't think "Well, some of my heroes were already exhausted, so I could not fully resolve the effect.  Guess I don't have to deal a damage!"

Seems similar to Ered Nimrais Prospector to me... seems like it should get fully resolved.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by GrandSpleen

[asgardianphil 38]

I just beat the Dread Realm by doing as much as I can with Narya. At first I was only ever using it on allies that were exhausted but after really reading it carefully I thought huh... it says choose and ready up to 2 allies. And I started thinking about that. I can certainly choose 2 allies exhausted or not and it's curious that it doesn't say choose up to 2 exhausted allies and ready them. So I came to understand that the card was basically saying: the cost to run this action is to exhaust the weilder and Narya and the benefit is to provide the player with two readied allies +1 def and +1 att. If they are already ready then that part of the card doesn't trigger you just give em the buff. Or you could say the ready benefit was already fulfilled.  

Playing this way made Narya a pleasure to play.  Before I'd always skirted round putting it in my decks as  I thought it was too conditional only being able to use it on an exhausted ally. Or I'd play it and then not get the use out of it I needed due to the readied state of my allies. 

It always felt like the weakest of the rings. It seams odd now that I thought the ring of power only gave power to exhausted allies... and not give power to allies ready for action. 

[Wandalf the Gizzard 370]

And you can always exhaust an ally to defend, then trigger Narya to buff its defense before the attack resolves, and have the ally ready to attack at plus one as well.

[Rouxxor 271]

You could choose exhausted allies. Since the effect still do something (boost) you will be able to trigger it.

But, as far as I remember I never use it in more than 100 games using Narya, because:

- When you want to block with the ally you can use Wandalf tech;

- When you want to attack it is always better to ready another an exhausted ally, or to ready a character while he attack, using the same trick as wandalf described.

[asgardianphil 38]

 I had Defender of Ramas + Spear of the Citadel + Vigilant Guard which was great but I was waiting to defend and exhaust with the ally to use Narya. However it was always a difficult timing window to get Narya to trigger with any effective meaning to the state of play. I always ended up thinking: that was useless as I've got no more enemies but a really good magic ring on Gandalf that's nigh-on-useless. Then I had my ephiany and used it on the ready defender to give him 5 defense off the bat. I also had Gandalf's staff to remove any nasty shadow effects from the Defender of Ramas. 

It was a game changer for me.  

Then just to be sure I hadn't missed anything I came looking here for clarification.