Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Simon Retold

“A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never to attack.”

Recommended Posts

The line in question is more a metaphor - Yoda is saying "don't act when you're in a bad emotional place" and not never use the Force in an offensive manner. Don't resort to violence and attacks until other options have been exhausted and there's still a need.

Edited by Desslok

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I might have given Yoda a little conflict for the Sidious fight, but that would hardly have been a problem. The way I see it Yoda is pretty much at 100 Morality, so worst case scenario is that at the end of that night's session he might dip down to around 95 on a bad roll. Still very much a good guy by anyone's standards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think when you put the grandmasters of two opposing religions in the same room, one plainly good (Mostly) and the other of pure evil, the moral implications take a backseat; Sidious is a foe cannot be reasoned with nor bartered as he is a guy who is carrying out a galaxy wide extermination of an Order and setting up a empire with him at it's head, it's blankly apparent that the only way the Jedi could defend against sidious is to destroy him because he and they are incompatible in this galaxy. 

 

I think Yoda had plenty of examples in the clone wars that he would have cause to regret; his own arrogance being one but that fight is one of the few that is the exception. Of course, he may have gained conflict otherwise from any pips he converted during the struggle.

 

 

Generally; as with all good metaphors and horoscopes; it can be twisted to apply to any given situation thus overly literal interpretations are a bit off.

Edited by Lordbiscuit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think the moral implications should take a backseat. That's when you get into some serious "ends justifying the means"-territory, and that never turns out all right. Once you start thinking that since Palpatine is more or less Absolute Evil, then anything you do to defeat him is morally justifiable, then you risk emerging victorious from that battle as Palpatine 2.0.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Within the game and Legends, Yoda preferred the Ataru style of lightsaber combat. That style is based upon preemptively striking first and hopefully never giving your opponent the opportunity to strike back. This is a hotly debated form of "defense" in the real world, but the Jedi seem to get by with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Within the game and Legends, Yoda preferred the Ataru style of lightsaber combat. That style is based upon preemptively striking first and hopefully never giving your opponent the opportunity to strike back. This is a hotly debated form of "defense" in the real world, but the Jedi seem to get by with it.

Yoda also generally didn't draw his lightsaber first.  In most cases, by the time he reached for his lightsaber, any chance of a peaceful resolution had long since gone out of the window.  And if a chance for a reasonably peaceful resolution came up that didn't end with the opponent in pieces during the course of the fight, he'd probably take it.  Granted, that probably wouldn't hold with Sidious, as he knew from history that Sith Lords were far too extreme of a threat and far too prone to treachery for there to be any chance of a peaceful resolution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Defending yourself doesn't mean having to wait to let the other person hit/shoot/cut/burn you first.  

Especially since the Force is going to give you a heads-up before the other guy strikes, so you KNOW the attack is coming even if he hasn't moved yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think the moral implications should take a backseat. That's when you get into some serious "ends justifying the means"-territory, and that never turns out all right. Once you start thinking that since Palpatine is more or less Absolute Evil, then anything you do to defeat him is morally justifiable, then you risk emerging victorious from that battle as Palpatine 2.0.

 

It depends situation to situation. If one starts acting like a terrorist then that's much more likely to generate conflict

 

Thats because Palpatine is an absolute evil and in this particular case they fought within a sterile room; no people in it and a lot of objects. In this particular case there is no conflict to gain except as a result of the use the force checks. Hence the morality "takes a backseat" comment. Because in this particular example theres nothing interesting that can distract Yoda. If Yoda had left Obi-Ani when Dooku collapsed a pillar? Morality would apply as comrades could get killed if he lapses his responsibility.

Edited by Lordbiscuit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not even Palpatine is absolute evil. 

You must have watched a very different set of movies than the rest of us.

 

Palpatine is pretty much the poster child for cackling Chaotic Evil villain, lacking only a mustache to twirl while he chews up the scenery, especially once he no longer has need of the "charming politician" façade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Not even Palpatine is absolute evil. 

You must have watched a very different set of movies than the rest of us.

 

Palpatine is pretty much the poster child for cackling Chaotic Evil villain, lacking only a mustache to twirl while he chews up the scenery, especially once he no longer has need of the "charming politician" façade.

 

Pretty much. The guy started a civil war on a galactic scale just to get into power and engineered a situation that killed trillions of people just to wipe out an order of Jedi. He even perverts the force to shoot lightning out of his hands so that he can torture at all, torturing Luke in front of his own father. I'm very sure the only thing on that list he hasn't' done is set fire to an orphanage; because he hires people to do that for him.

 

Though I would argue he's more lawful evil; everything he did was to place himself into power so he could spend the rest of his life enjoying it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Not even Palpatine is absolute evil. 

 

You must be talking about Bob Palpatine, the guy that runs the gyro stand down the street because the guy who blows up planets for the LOLZ is 100% prime evil.

 

Bob is only mostly evil, Doug the Emperor is Truly Evil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's another interesting thing to ponder about what Yoda teaches Luke and what he wants him to do...

 

Yoda teaches Luke how Jedi use their power for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

 

Yet he's training him specifically to confront Vader. Yoda & Obi-Wan didn't tell him "you can redeem Vader, we're just training you so he doesn't kill you," they told him you need to confront him, face him, deal with him.

 

Obi-Wan said that Vader was more machine now than man, twisted and evil.

 

Luke's masters were training him to murder his own father, while lying to him, saying Vader killed his father.

 

The only person who believed in Anakin Skywalker, believed he could be redeemed, was Luke.

 

The old Jedi order was corrupt and arrogant down to the last two masters. Their hubris was their downfall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Not even Palpatine is absolute evil.

In an interview with Filoni regarding the last Maul arc in TCW, one of the points they were trying to make was that even Maul had something redeemable about him, whereas Sidious was absolutely and unequivocally evil.

 

 

And yet him dying caused more deaths than him and his empire staying in power and kept holding back the Vong. Ain't legends not great. He indeed brought order to the galaxy. 

Though even without legends the point stands that he did not created the separatists, he merely used them, even without him there would have been war, but without him this civil war would not have been dealt with droids and clones and in a quite civilized way. ;-)

 

On top of that do the sith have a history of genocide or ethnic cleansing with the jedi as well, and it is not always the Jedi who fall victim to it. Malachor V was a trap, but it was a trap designed by a Jedi. So we have that Jedi mass murder against the Sith in canon now as well. Speaking of Revan feats of mass murder, it looks like Ezra has now Revan's Holocron … omg Ezra could be the founder of the Knights of Ren. Sorry for getting off-topic. Anyway, while the emperor was undeniable evil, using the word absolute seems odd and his hatred for jedi seems quite justified as well. It not like Windu wanted to wait for a trial either when he tried to assassinate the supreme chancellor of the republic based on his religion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's another interesting thing to ponder about what Yoda teaches Luke and what he wants him to do...

 

Yoda teaches Luke how Jedi use their power for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

 

Yet he's training him specifically to confront Vader. Yoda & Obi-Wan didn't tell him "you can redeem Vader, we're just training you so he doesn't kill you," they told him you need to confront him, face him, deal with him.

 

Obi-Wan said that Vader was more machine now than man, twisted and evil.

 

Luke's masters were training him to murder his own father, while lying to him, saying Vader killed his father.

 

The only person who believed in Anakin Skywalker, believed he could be redeemed, was Luke.

 

The old Jedi order was corrupt and arrogant down to the last two masters. Their hubris was their downfall.

 

At least Yoda might claim that he knew that Skywalker can be redeemed by his son or daughter. If he ever told Obi-Wan is unknown, it sure did not look like he did. Either way, both might have lied to Luke about that to make Lukes resolve and feelings just stronger. Or maybe indeed both never lost their hubris. But as mentioned, the Series final of the clone wars is leaving Yoda as a changed man. He was very disappointed when Luke leashed out with his Saber in the dark-side cave. Does this look to you like he wanted Luke to really kill his father?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Here's another interesting thing to ponder about what Yoda teaches Luke and what he wants him to do...

 

Yoda teaches Luke how Jedi use their power for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

 

Yet he's training him specifically to confront Vader. Yoda & Obi-Wan didn't tell him "you can redeem Vader, we're just training you so he doesn't kill you," they told him you need to confront him, face him, deal with him.

 

Obi-Wan said that Vader was more machine now than man, twisted and evil.

 

Luke's masters were training him to murder his own father, while lying to him, saying Vader killed his father.

 

The only person who believed in Anakin Skywalker, believed he could be redeemed, was Luke.

 

The old Jedi order was corrupt and arrogant down to the last two masters. Their hubris was their downfall.

 

At least Yoda might claim that he knew that Skywalker can be redeemed by his son or daughter. If he ever told Obi-Wan is unknown, it sure did not look like he did. Either way, both might have lied to Luke about that to make Lukes resolve and feelings just stronger. Or maybe indeed both never lost their hubris. But as mentioned, the Series final of the clone wars is leaving Yoda as a changed man. He was very disappointed when Luke leashed out with his Saber in the dark-side cave. Does this look to you like he wanted Luke to really kill his father?  

 

Yoda is super conflicted about what is the right choice to make after Episode 3. I've seen all of the Clone Wars and Rebels...

 

In Rebels season 2, Yoda explains how the Jedi were fearful and infers that the Jedi should never have even gone to war in the first place. When Ezra talks about fighting the Empire, Yoda doesn't even seem so sure that it's the right thing to do. He eventually seems to give in to Ezra's desires and sends them to a place that ended up pushed Ezra further towards the dark path among other bad things.

 

Yoda after the clone wars series wasn't all that changed of a person. Sure he realized he was afraid and that was hurting him and the Jedi but he did absolutely nothing to stop it, not that he could do much at that point in time.

 

Seems like Yoda just kept doing what he knew instead of trying something different, even when it comes to Luke. The old order failed and a lot of that blame rests upon the people who led that order but Yoda has supposedly been training jedi for hundreds of years. He just kept doing what he knew, because he knew no other way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Not even Palpatine is absolute evil.

In an interview with Filoni regarding the last Maul arc in TCW, one of the points they were trying to make was that even Maul had something redeemable about him, whereas Sidious was absolutely and unequivocally evil.

 

 

And yet him dying caused more deaths than him and his empire staying in power and kept holding back the Vong. Ain't legends not great. He indeed brought order to the galaxy. 

Though even without legends the point stands that he did not created the separatists, he merely used them, even without him there would have been war, but without him this civil war would not have been dealt with droids and clones and in a quite civilized way. ;-)

 

On top of that do the sith have a history of genocide or ethnic cleansing with the jedi as well, and it is not always the Jedi who fall victim to it. Malachor V was a trap, but it was a trap designed by a Jedi. So we have that Jedi mass murder against the Sith in canon now as well. Speaking of Revan feats of mass murder, it looks like Ezra has now Revan's Holocron … omg Ezra could be the founder of the Knights of Ren. Sorry for getting off-topic. Anyway, while the emperor was undeniable evil, using the word absolute seems odd and his hatred for jedi seems quite justified as well. It not like Windu wanted to wait for a trial either when he tried to assassinate the supreme chancellor of the republic based on his religion. 

 

I don't know why you say he didn't create the Separatists; there's pretty much every bit of evidence he was behind everything. Like, everything short of outright of holding up a big sign that said 'I was behind everything.'

 

Also, Revan was already studying the Sith and the dark side by the time of Malachor V, so you can say he wasn't a Jedi anymore. And KotOR is not canon; Malachor in Rebels is only a reference, or a reinterpretation for the new canon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Here's another interesting thing to ponder about what Yoda teaches Luke and what he wants him to do...

 

Yoda teaches Luke how Jedi use their power for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

 

Yet he's training him specifically to confront Vader. Yoda & Obi-Wan didn't tell him "you can redeem Vader, we're just training you so he doesn't kill you," they told him you need to confront him, face him, deal with him.

 

Obi-Wan said that Vader was more machine now than man, twisted and evil.

 

Luke's masters were training him to murder his own father, while lying to him, saying Vader killed his father.

 

The only person who believed in Anakin Skywalker, believed he could be redeemed, was Luke.

 

The old Jedi order was corrupt and arrogant down to the last two masters. Their hubris was their downfall.

 

At least Yoda might claim that he knew that Skywalker can be redeemed by his son or daughter. If he ever told Obi-Wan is unknown, it sure did not look like he did. Either way, both might have lied to Luke about that to make Lukes resolve and feelings just stronger. Or maybe indeed both never lost their hubris. But as mentioned, the Series final of the clone wars is leaving Yoda as a changed man. He was very disappointed when Luke leashed out with his Saber in the dark-side cave. Does this look to you like he wanted Luke to really kill his father?  

 

Yoda is super conflicted about what is the right choice to make after Episode 3. I've seen all of the Clone Wars and Rebels...

 

In Rebels season 2, Yoda explains how the Jedi were fearful and infers that the Jedi should never have even gone to war in the first place. When Ezra talks about fighting the Empire, Yoda doesn't even seem so sure that it's the right thing to do. He eventually seems to give in to Ezra's desires and sends them to a place that ended up pushed Ezra further towards the dark path among other bad things.

 

Yoda after the clone wars series wasn't all that changed of a person. Sure he realized he was afraid and that was hurting him and the Jedi but he did absolutely nothing to stop it, not that he could do much at that point in time.

 

Seems like Yoda just kept doing what he knew instead of trying something different, even when it comes to Luke. The old order failed and a lot of that blame rests upon the people who led that order but Yoda has supposedly been training jedi for hundreds of years. He just kept doing what he knew, because he knew no other way.

 

 

He is trying at least to change, which means that has changed, but his change is not done yet. And yeah, I can not wait to find out about Ezra and his holocron, we don't know so far what Filoni up to or the reasons for Yoda's decision, but one thing is for sure, they stopped Maul from using and/or acquiring the weapon against Palpatine, which might have annihilated whole coruscant. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Not even Palpatine is absolute evil.

In an interview with Filoni regarding the last Maul arc in TCW, one of the points they were trying to make was that even Maul had something redeemable about him, whereas Sidious was absolutely and unequivocally evil.

 

 

And yet him dying caused more deaths than him and his empire staying in power and kept holding back the Vong. Ain't legends not great. He indeed brought order to the galaxy. 

Though even without legends the point stands that he did not created the separatists, he merely used them, even without him there would have been war, but without him this civil war would not have been dealt with droids and clones and in a quite civilized way. ;-)

 

On top of that do the sith have a history of genocide or ethnic cleansing with the jedi as well, and it is not always the Jedi who fall victim to it. Malachor V was a trap, but it was a trap designed by a Jedi. So we have that Jedi mass murder against the Sith in canon now as well. Speaking of Revan feats of mass murder, it looks like Ezra has now Revan's Holocron … omg Ezra could be the founder of the Knights of Ren. Sorry for getting off-topic. Anyway, while the emperor was undeniable evil, using the word absolute seems odd and his hatred for jedi seems quite justified as well. It not like Windu wanted to wait for a trial either when he tried to assassinate the supreme chancellor of the republic based on his religion. 

 

I don't know why you say he didn't create the Separatists; there's pretty much every bit of evidence he was behind everything. Like, everything short of outright of holding up a big sign that said 'I was behind everything.'

 

Also, Revan was already studying the Sith and the dark side by the time of Malachor V, so you can say he wasn't a Jedi anymore. And KotOR is not canon; Malachor in Rebels is only a reference, or a reinterpretation for the new canon.

 

 

The separatist movement is older than gold old Sheev and the separatists are now one of the two big factions of the new republic. Most likely the faction with a lot dead senators as they got wiped out in TFA, the centralists more or loss paid for that starkiller, so they most likely were conveniently not present at the senate or maybe the first order wiped them out anyway, who knows?

Anyway, Palpatine had no need to create the separatists for his plans, he just needed to direct them and the republic into the right ways so that he could profit from the conflict. 

 

BTW, the voice actress for the presence is the same as or Ventress, Nika Futterman was in Kotor as well, though I have no idea if she did female Revan as well, it seems like that voice actress is nowhere listed. Great now I am hyped for season 3 rebels, and I have no idea when season 3 will start. Thank you guys. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

BTW, the voice actress for the presence is the same as or Ventress, Nika Futterman was in Kotor as well, though I have no idea if she did female Revan as well, it seems like that voice actress is nowhere listed. Great now I am hyped for season 3 rebels, and I have no idea when season 3 will start. Thank you guys. :P

Revan had a speaking part in KotOR?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

 

BTW, the voice actress for the presence is the same as or Ventress, Nika Futterman was in Kotor as well, though I have no idea if she did female Revan as well, it seems like that voice actress is nowhere listed. Great now I am hyped for season 3 rebels, and I have no idea when season 3 will start. Thank you guys. :P

Revan had a speaking part in KotOR?

 

 

Yes.

Ok.

Yes.

Ok.

Rino Romano did the male part. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...