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Darth Meanie

Why Are So Many Ships Broken??

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I've got at least four ships that had to be magnetized because the bit on the ship that inserts into the peg has been snapped clean off...

I had 3 of the 4 ties that came with the Goz do that. I was able to glue them back on, and I think it was the glue that was the issue. But in two cases all I did was bump them and they popped off... Leaving the socket in the tube you attach to the goz.

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To be fair, X-wing is an incredibly difficult game to design.

Eh, not really. All games are difficult to design to a degree, but this is a game where all the ships use identical attacks with identical dice results. Everything is shooting, everything uses the same red and green dice with the same likelihood of success per die roll. They all use identical movement templates, share classes of base sizes, etc.

 

I'm not talking about the core game mechanics like shooting and rolling dice.

 

I'm talking about upgrade cards where one misstep can drastically affect the meta.

 

Autothrusters affected everything. TLT affected everything. Contracted scouts affected everything. What if the latter two were point more expensive?

The margins for error are small and the impacts are huge because of how few ships there are per squad. 

 

 

If you want to compare to 40K, imagine if every list was capped at 50 points and was made up of only 2-4 models (most lists nowadays) that all shared the same possible upgrades.

Even a tiny valuation error of 2-3 points could result in drastic meta changes.

 

The amount of pressure on X-wing designers is way higher than 40K.

Plus NOBODY literally NOBODY expects any balance from GW. They don't understand the meaning of the word!

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...

 

  • the mathematically inefficient X-wing
  • the poor poor Tie Advance
  • the overpriced A-wing
  • Ordnance in general, prior to scouts, which accounted for the advance and A being so laughably overpriced
  • the fantastically crappy named imperial firespray pilots
  • the release of the Tie Interceptor right alongside the PWT that could trivially murder it

 

...

And they all got killed by TIE Swarm or Biggs Walks the dogs. Seriously the PWT Falcon wasn't a thing until Whisper and Echo came along and clear up the skies. Sure Biggs end up walking B-wings because of the traffic jam furball meta with the TIE swarm but at Wave 2 it was swarm and bump and bump and swarm. You would attempt a 3 speed maneuver and would not be able to move because of all the overlaps.

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What's actually improbable. because there can be but one top-PS phantom, Ceptor or Falcon.

 

I think the problem is more the point difference between the interceptors is too small. If the Soontir Carnor gap were larger you'd see more Carnors.

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"Ordnance is quite telling on how ffg fixes things. By wave 3-4 they should really have looked at ordnance like the classic ptoron torpedo and said: okey this isn't good enough I think we have to rewrite how toprs/missles will work in the game. They didn't so instead they tried 3 times to fix it with weapons failsave, extra munition and finally guidence chips. The thing is that the Y-wing will never carry torpedoes unless it receives another fix cause the ordnance wasn't that great with to start with. If they keep this patching system eventually we will need a x-wint 2.0. But don't get me wrong the game is still pretty balanced and there is alot of builds out there but the cracks are starting to show."

 

What fixed Ordnance was the Tracer Missile.  other than that you still need high PS, or an EPT and take the Deadeye skill to use them.  All the rest is just icing on the cake, except for failsafe. That was just the devs looking at complaints to fix the system and not seeing the real problem.

 

I think the issue here is that the play testers on not nearly devious enough.  You need people who are very good at breaking a system while following the rules to the letter.  U-boats don't happen without an EPT on the lowest pilot.  Take that away and it is a good ship that sees some play just like the K-wing. And at least a few people on the play tester roles that are very devious would have uncovered that.  Don't get me wrong, I love that we have very good players, testing this stuff before it comes out.  I know of at least one that I have talked to in person.  But I think they need to search the forums for the people who posted trip U boats, Palp Aces, or any of the other archetypes that so many have screamed broken about.  Get those guys play testing and they might find these things before release.

 

Edit: first part is a quote from somewhere on page 2, but I must have done something wrong.  Didn't want to plagiarize. 

Edited by dukewolf

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What fixed Ordnance was the Tracer Missile.  other than that you still need high PS, or an EPT and take the Deadeye skill to use them.  All the rest is just icing on the cake, except for failsafe. That was just the devs looking at complaints to fix the system and not seeing the real problem.

 

I think the issue here is that the play testers on not nearly devious enough.  You need people who are very good at breaking a system while following the rules to the letter.  U-boats don't happen without an EPT on the lowest pilot.  Take that away and it is a good ship that sees some play just like the K-wing. And at least a few people on the play tester roles that are very devious would have uncovered that.  Don't get me wrong, I love that we have very good players, testing this stuff before it comes out.  I know of at least one that I have talked to in person.  But I think they need to search the forums for the people who posted trip U boats, Palp Aces, or any of the other archetypes that so many have screamed broken about.  Get those guys play testing and they might find these things before release.

 

Edit: first part is a quote from somewhere on page 2, but I must have done something wrong.  Didn't want to plagiarize.

Consider a new thing entering testing. It doesn't matter what it does, but suppose it presents a hidden problem.

(1) The problem has to be detected.

(2) The magnitude of the problem has to be correctly assessed by testers.

(3) The problem has to be accurately and completely communicated to the developers/engineers.

(4) The developers/engineers have to figure out a fix.

(5) The fix has to be tested (goto 10), not only for the initial problem but for anything else that might have been broken by the fix.

Your post makes the very problematic assumption that--to the degree something like Contracted Scout represents a problem--that problem is definitely located in step 1.

 

EDIT: I'm not talking about FFG specifically. That's the set of steps in any QA/QC process--I've done it in software, I've done it in page layout/graphic design, I've done it in research design.

Edited by Vorpal Sword

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But that also means 40k is still the 'gold standard' of games, not in that it's what all games should aspire to, but rather it's what we tend to compare other games to (quite often in the sense of don't do what 40k did) because it's something a lot of us know and it's a good common frame of reference.

 

"I'd like to thank FFG for creating a truly magnificent game in X-Wing, and I'd like to thank Games Workshop for helping me appreciate what a truly magnificent game X-Wing is..."

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Just like any game there are stronger builds than others, that doesn't mean the game is broken. 

 

IMO, X-Wing Minatures is:

1/3 - Squad Build

1/3 - Flying

1/3 - Dice Roll

 

I've seen less powerful ships take out powerful ships all the time, and I personally don't think any ship is truly "broken". 

 

Also, if we take a step back, remember within the Star Wars universe the Empire is suppose to be super well funded and the Rebels are old thrown together ships... so in that sense all the rebel ships should be extremely under powered. That said, I'm glad FFG is doing their best to equalize the factions and ships abilities :)

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i think gameplay will always be greater than theme, but at the same time, each ship has its own role in its faction for casual play, want a cheap turret crew carrier, HWK? want to run a top table list while competing? use the meta lists.

 

theres no right or wrong way to play this game, every ship is "viable" it just depends on the level of competition that across the table from you

 

Ill always keep buying new expacs because the game wont be complete unless I have at least one of every ship, for thematic reasons, yeah, thats it 

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Just like any game there are stronger builds than others, that doesn't mean the game is broken. 

 

IMO, X-Wing Minatures is:

1/3 - Squad Build

1/3 - Flying

1/3 - Dice Roll

 

I've seen less powerful ships take out powerful ships all the time, and I personally don't think any ship is truly "broken". 

 

Also, if we take a step back, remember within the Star Wars universe the Empire is suppose to be super well funded and the Rebels are old thrown together ships... so in that sense all the rebel ships should be extremely under powered. That said, I'm glad FFG is doing their best to equalize the factions and ships abilities :)

 

i agree with there being no truely broken ships. the game designers have allowed room for squad lists to trump the top meta lists. essentially any list can win and any dominant squad can be taken down by a counter squad (this may not have been the case is the past with 360 arc ships like the falcon and decimator, but even these have their weaknesses).. triple scouts are getting a lot of hype as being OP but they r not winning in significant numbers yet. ppl tend to focus on a single event that it wins or features in large numbers in and use this as proof its OP. they forget that if lots of ppl are playing it then the odds are its good and will get to the top8. as long as all factions have a way to build competitive lists this game will keep its diversity.

 

i am seeing power creep. TLT's  changed the meta, now ordnance is doing the same. Palpatine is a monster but not unbeatable. Boba Fett crew handles him pretty well. the tie advanced needed a fix, it was way overcosted AND underpowered at 2 atk dice. The tie defender is going to be at least as scary as the contracted scouts are. I can see each faction is getting its time to shine. Right now i think scum has a few more tools in its toolbox, and they r long overdue because the ships up until now with the exception of the IG-88 have been rather lackluster compared to what rebels and imperials have.

Edited by The_Brown_Bomber

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OTOH, this thread makes me wonder why everyone compares this game to 40K??

A little history lesson may be in order.

In the dark days when there was only war... I mean Warhammer. There was basically two 'mainstream' tabletop war games. Warhammer 40k and Warhammer Fantasy Battles.  There was a few others but they were hard to find and most were limited to a given group.  Warhammer was the only big game.

 

So in those days you either played 40k, WFB or nothing.  That means a lot of us who play X-Wing today used to play 40k or WFB but were never really happy with it.  Games-Workshop knew they had the gamer by the <something> and we'd buy what they sold or else.

 

So when games like Warmachine and other table top games started to be made, people would flock to them, but none of those ever became as popular as 40k.

 

Then X-Wing was released and it's been growing every year, a lot of that growth being former 40k players who jumped ship.  Until now it's may actually sell better than 40k.

 

But that also means 40k is still the 'gold standard' of games, not in that it's what all games should aspire to, but rather it's what we tend to compare other games to (quite often in the sense of don't do what 40k did) because it's something a lot of us know and it's a good common frame of reference.

 

Thank you, that explains a lot.

 

OTOH, I guess that means no one is familiar with Dark Heaven Apocalypse. . .

Edited by Darth Meanie

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i am seeing power creep. TLT's  changed the meta, now ordnance is doing the same. Palpatine is a monster but not unbeatable. Boba Fett crew handles him pretty well. the tie advanced needed a fix, it was way overcosted AND underpowered at 2 atk dice. The tie defender is going to be at least as scary as the contracted scouts are. I can see each faction is getting its time to shine. Right now i think scum has a few more tools in its toolbox, and they r long overdue because the ships up until now with the exception of the IG-88 have been rather lackluster compared to what rebels and imperials have.

 

But it's such an odd type of power creep that I hesitate to even call it power creep. To me, power creep implies that the newest ships are always going to be the best ships and they you are handicapping yourself to play with older ships. 

TLT brought ships from the earliest waves back to the table, the U-Boat brought a bunch of cards that had been released across many earlier waves but that no one ever used out of the back of their binders, Palpatine breathed new life into older ships that were that many players considered too luck dependent, Crackshot let A-Wings and TIE Fighters stop slap fighting.

 

That gives me hope that as more options get released in later waves that people will have more freedom to put their favorite ship or pilot on the table in a squad that is at least fairly competitive.

Edited by WWHSD

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Remember those Proton Torpedo cards you got with all those wave one expansions and the core sets? Well, It's Potty Time, with triple toilet seats firing the things back at you.

Remember the Y-wing? It's one of the most versatile fighters across two factions, and can triple tap!!! For a ship that existed only to ionize someone out of arc it has come a long way.

It's all super crazy, new ships come in, some old ships fade while others shine. It's the nature of things to change.

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(...)So in those days you either played 40k, WFB or nothing(...)

I understand you need to make the point, but nothing in this case means some less known wargames (quite a number of games around, but not enough people playing them, and times before common internet and social media) or actually none at all.

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Between the cries for "fixes" and the fact that almost every ship seems to get 2 releases, it really makes me wonder what happens in X-Wing R&D for each Wave.

Between the cries for "fixes" and the fact that almost every ship seems to get 2 releases, it really makes me wonder what happens in X-Wing R&D for each Wave.

After wave 3 the design team changed. You can blame them for the Phantom and wave 5.

 

Well, VI, EU and the Falcon were already there...

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