Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
isthar

Ensuring the player doesn't feel "robbed"

Recommended Posts

I think the OP's point is that it's not a positive thing when you get a great roll only to then be informed that dice don't matter because abilities/upgrades.

 

I could make a similar argument: "it's not a positive thing when you have great upgrades only to be informed that they don't matter because of a random dice roll."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see all your points... but really, this is a game design principle.

 

"Do not undo what the player has achieved". I find shield regen has some of that.

 

Yes, games are hard, it's an interesting thing. Of course this forum is mostly the hard core "I don't care if it feels bad to my opponent if I win I use it"...

 

But seriously, you don't find a difference in the feeling, the *feeling* which is not analyzable...

 

Roll, miss all the hits, you feel responsible for that bad luck.

Roll, see the evade, be told "No actually you did not just roll that".

 

VERY different.

 

I think the game you're looking for is called Craps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Juke is literally my favourite EPT.

 

 

Omega Leader

Barons of the Empire

TIE/x7 Defenders...

 

One of my go-to EPTs for these is Juke. 

 

It's not even about winning, because with the TAPs and Defenders (which for obvious reasons I've only used in casual anyway) Juke isn't even the most efficient thing to take with them.

 

I suppose what I'm saying is: I enjoy tricksy little dice-modifiers, even when they happen to me I can laugh it off as a "****, that sucks" kinda thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see all your points... but really, this is a game design principle.

 

"Do not undo what the player has achieved". I find shield regen has some of that.

 

Yes, games are hard, it's an interesting thing. Of course this forum is mostly the hard core "I don't care if it feels bad to my opponent if I win I use it"...

 

But seriously, you don't find a difference in the feeling, the *feeling* which is not analyzable...

 

Roll, miss all the hits, you feel responsible for that bad luck.

Roll, see the evade, be told "No actually you did not just roll that".

 

VERY different.

 

Consider that Juke could have been (euh, well, don't check all possible game effects but you get my drift)... "if the defender rolled an Evade add a Hit to your die results". Just /how/ it got executed can change. (YES I KNOW SO MANY OTHER CARDS INTERACT WITH THIS I am not proposing this)

 

Anyways. An article that relates to how I feel these days...  http://dockingbay416.com/an-open-letter-to-the-x-wing-community/

I'm still not seeing the difference here? If my opponent rolls four crits, that's an awesome achievement for them. If I counter by rolling four evades, or three evades plus a token, have I robbed them of that achievement?

 

 

The game has always had effects that modify other rolls. Elusiveness and Sensor Jammer were some of the earlier ones.

 

Again, if a TIE Fighter is able to juke you repeatedly, where is your Focus token?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I think the OP's point is that it's not a positive thing when you get a great roll only to then be informed that dice don't matter because abilities/upgrades.

 

I could make a similar argument: "it's not a positive thing when you have great upgrades only to be informed that they don't matter because of a random dice roll."

 

You're argument isn't even similar though. For a competitive game it's actually far more valid. When playing a game against someone else, even when it's just for fun, I prefer our decision making to be the biggest factor not luck. Probably why I'd rather play X-wing than like Monopoly for instance, but to each his own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forgetting what Omega Leader does, coming nose to nose with him, all target locked and glitterstimmed up to the eyeballs.

 

Me: *roll*  "Hmm.  I'll use my Target L..."
Omega Leader: "NOPE!"

Me: "Oh OK, how about my Predat..."

OL: "NOPE!"

Me: "Oh well then straight to the glitterstims..."

OL: "LOL NOPE!"

 

I'll never forget what Omega Leader does again :D

Edited by spacebug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forgetting what Omega Leader does, coming nose to nose with him, all target locked and glitterstimmed up to the eyeballs.

 

Me: *roll*  "Hmm.  I'll use my Target L..."

Omega Leader: "NOPE!"

Me: "Oh OK, how about my Predat..."

OL: "NOPE!"

Me: "Oh well then straight to the glitterstims..."

OL: "LOL NOPE!"

 

I'll never forget what Omega Leader does again :D

This is what usually happens when I fly Omega Leader:

 

First: "I get an evade token!"

Second: "I acquire a target lock!"

Third: "I roll to attack!"

Fourth: "I got a blank and an eyeball. If I spend the TL, you can modify dice. Ugh, I'll keep it."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's all a trade off.

I mean

.it's 8 points for the emperor and two crew slots.

We could almost buy our own ship for that!

Look....we don't have to sit here and listen to this....

(And actually speaking of buying a ship...you still need to throw at least 21 other points just to get a ship that can use the emperor.)

This is not a situation of " oh look I just automatically fix a bad dice roll."

That ability is paid for handsomely.

Edited by Velvetelvis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have felt robbed by dice rolls. I have never felt robbed by an ability I knew was there.

Seconded. Abilities are part of the strategy, being what crew, equipment and skills you choose to bring to a battle. The dice can, as someone around here has amply noted, be very fickle. I don't mind losing to a well-planned strategy, or because I made a stupid mistake. I hate losing just because I got the lesser end of probability for an hour or so dropping nothing but blanks, or focuses when I can't use them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Feeling "robbed" just plain sucks regardless if it comes from a card or watching a great dice roll get negated. It's the same feeling watching Vader getting one-shotted at R3 through a rock and I roll 5 blanks. It's part of the game and if you can't stand a little heartbreak, games are not for you.

The old saw about keeping your enemies closer? That way it's easier to read their cards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That doesn't sound like how the Emperor works, either.

now-you-will-pay-the-price-for-your-lack

 

The Emporer does allow the modification of one die... so you can simply add a crit to your role if you choose. Basically your changing one of your other results.

Edited by FlyingAnchors

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It does get kind of crushing when you get a 4/4 hit attack off against Soontir and he converts a blank blank focus roll into 4 evade results.

At that point what's the point of continuing playing if one side has invincible ships? I'm not saying that to stroke my pessimism boner, hear me out. A new player finally gets Soontir in arc with say, an HLC B-Wing. He scores 3 hits, and Soontir rolls blank blank focus and spends an evade token, a focus token, Palpatine, and Autothrusters to completely block all damage. That's not creating a positive play experience, quite the opposite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It does get kind of crushing when you get a 4/4 hit attack off against Soontir and he converts a blank blank focus roll into 4 evade results.

 

not as crushing when you get a 4 hit attack off against blocked soontir, in arc, and he rolls four naked evades

So what happens is that you'll realize that Soontir with tokens is invincible, so you'll try your best to block him range 2 of a homing missile.

You score 4 hits, and your opponent rolls 3 evades and Palpatines the last one. Your one chance to cripple/kill Fel, gone. Next turn he tokens back up and is invincible.

Soontir with just 4 agility and Palpatine has a 48% chance of taking zero damage from a 3/3 hit attack. That's assuming you get 3 hits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the OP that Juke is a rather infuriating upgrade. Combined with Omega Leader...ooh, it just gets under my skin! So much so that I am now looking for ways to get Wes to contribute meaningfully in my squads. Also helps against Torpedo Scouts. Anyway, Juke was bugging me a whole lot until I realized what this guy wrote:

 

My lists are full of nothing but "I'ma gonna' steal that," and "oops, you're going to have to re-roll those," and "am I in your way?."

 

Their fury is delightful.

 

I realized that I am guilty of playing scummy Scum squads, such as Expert Handling Palob: "Oh, I'll barrel roll into range 2 to discard the Target Lock you placed on me with FCS last turn, and I'll steal your focus token while I'm at it." And Zuckuss with 4-LOM crew: "You can't use your focus token this attack, but on the bright side you get to roll an extra evade die...but I'm rolling an extra attack die, too, so..." Now I understand, and I am no longer a slave to my fury and frustration: it's just a fun way to play!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is actually an 'old' games design philosophy *against* taking control over the dice roll away in the 'final say'

 

Its why in warhammer or 40k (and a lot of other games) the 'armour save' is made after the 'wound roll'

 

Narratively this makes no sense.  The armour should save you *before* the hit has a chance to wound...

 

But, as a game dynamic its much more satisfying to 'save' your own model at the last minute than it is to hand over its fate to the opposing player to make the 'wound roll'

 

In the same way 'green dice' could be viewed as the 'xwing' save roll.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I played a game against a very fat Bossk.

He would almost guaranteed make 4 hits with 3 dice.

Then blocked my focus or evade token, then when i rolled my 3 dice i had to re-roll all the evades i rolled, making a very likely 0 total evades.

First attack in the game was 7 dmg from cluster missiles on my IG..

 

I probably could have played better, but so many dice controlling cards effecting both colours of dice is just too much i think.

It sure wasn't a very fun game for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I played a game against a very fat Bossk.

He would almost guaranteed make 4 hits with 3 dice.

Then blocked my focus or evade token, then when i rolled my 3 dice i had to re-roll all the evades i rolled, making a very likely 0 total evades.

First attack in the game was 7 dmg from cluster missiles on my IG..

 

I probably could have played better, but so many dice controlling cards effecting both colours of dice is just too much i think.

It sure wasn't a very fun game for me.

How was he guaranteeing hits on attack? I see the impact of 4LOM and Zuckuss crew (leaving the Hound's Tooth with a stack of stress tokens and at least one Ion token, maybe two). Was Dengar in the third crew slot or something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only time I have been let down by the game was when i faced the accuracy corrector/autoblaster turret combo. Pushing through one or two unavoidable damage is a healthy aspect of the game in my opinion, but when you can do 4 a turn it kind of ruins the fun of the dogfight. "oh i made a mistake, lets see how badly I pay for this!" becomes "oh ii made a mistake. that ship has been deleted." its worse than flying off the board in my opinion, because you know the person chose to do this to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...