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isthar

Ensuring the player doesn't feel "robbed"

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Here's a design principle in games I find that x-wing is starting to break...

 

Don't make a played feel robbed.

 

If you roll dice, you physically picked them up and rolled them. There is a distinct difference between:

 

"aw man, I rolled all blanks!"

 

and

 

"phew I rolled an Evade."

"oh I'm sorry can you turn that over please? See, I Juke'd, so no you didn't."

 

Palpatine does something similar - the other player finishes rolling, looks at your roll (distinct from effects that are always on, those don't feel like you are robbed as they happen no matter what you do)... pauses, and goes "Oh, I'm sorry you didn't hit me" or "Well, here's a Crit because Emperor".

 

Anybody else bothered by Juke and other similar effects? And why does Juke-ing help the attacker? If I Juke I should avoid YOUR attacks...

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Nope.  My opponent is paying for that opportunity.  Do you think he feels robbed when he comes up against a Ghost or Decimator, where he doesn't get to use his ability that he paid points for?  If I don't want him to be getting rid of my evades, I shouldn't let him shoot at me.  And if he is, I should have a Focus token to change it back.

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If someone just played the Mauler Mithel vs. Luke Skywalker scenario (or whatever was in the new one... have it but didn't play it), I'm not going to jump right into handing them 3 basic X-Wings and then pulling out Sozin's Imperial A-Hole list against them.  That is wrong.  However, if someone has played for a while and they know you are trying to be competitive for an upcoming event, the gloves are off.  If you are at a tournament, all bets are off.  If you are playing casually and only play a list like that because you like to hear the cries as you drift off to sleep at night, then yeah, that's on you... go back to evil games.  

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I came here fully expecting to find out how to stop getting my pockets picked whilst being totally engrossed in setting my dials.

 

I was disappointed.

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

That'll be my excuse for my wife moving forward.

 

"I was just trying to play a game, and those jerks stole my money!  Again!  Hmm? What do you mean my bag of ships seems heavier?  I assure you dear, it's always been like that."

Edited by FluxCapcitr

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This seems to be an argument against dice modification.

Exactly this, and it's a slippery slope.

 

Don't want to get tagged by Juke? Then save your Focus token for defense, or use mechanics that either force your opponent to spend the Evade or avoid having it in the first place (Carnor, Wes, Palob). Or just fly ships with lots of hull and no evades. Juke is nearly wasted when fighting a Ghost.

 

Don't want to deal with the Emperor? Blow up the not-remotely-agile ship he's on or disintegrate him with Boba Fett.

 

If these effects cause you to feel robbed, then the problem is with you.

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I mean saying 'I feel robbed by my opponent using cards I have full knowledge that they have equipped' seems... strange. It's not like juke is a surprise, they have to have the card and have an evade. If they have these things you should be rolling green dice with 'hey they're gonna juke me' in mind. Maybe even take a focus action ahead of time to prepare for this.

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Where do you draw the line?

 

"Phew my opponent rolled three red dice and got a focus!  Wait, he has a target lock!  Now he rerolled those and has two hits and a crit!?"

 

I realize that if you're not expecting it, a surprise can be upsetting.  That said, surprises and tricks are part of most games.  I hate it when playing poker and fold only to have the other person reveal that they were bluffing.  It's frustrating and it stinks, but it's part of the game and there's nothing stopping me from doing it to them. 

 

Edit: I realize that in poker, many players don't reveal when they bluff.  I don't play with professionals, I play with jerks.

Edited by FluxCapcitr

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I think the OP's point is that it's not a positive thing when you get a great roll only to then be informed that dice don't matter because abilities/upgrades.

 

 

Then we really need to define what a "great roll" is...

 

Because the example he gave was all blanks vs one evade.... 

 

One evade on 5 Green Dice isn't great, for example :D

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Where do you draw the line?

 

"Phew my opponent rolled three red dice and got a focus!  Wait, he has a target lock!  Now he rerolled those and has two hits and a crit!?"

 

I realize that if you're not expecting it, a surprise can be upsetting.  That said, surprises and tricks are part of most games.  I hate it when playing poker and fold only to have the other person reveal that they were bluffing.  It's frustrating and it stinks, but it's part of the game and there's nothing stopping me from doing it to them. 

 

Edit: I realize that in poker, many players don't reveal when they bluff.  I don't play with professionals, I play with jerks.

Now I will feel guilty when I use Turr Phennir, have a range one shot with a focus right in the middle of an arc - But barrel roll and boost after I shoot to get out of a return fire arc.

How many tears does my opponent running PS6 and lower have to shed before I realize the cruelty of my actions and repent to allow him a return 3-4 dice shot?

Maybe I should take the Autothrusters off too...

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I see all your points... but really, this is a game design principle.

 

"Do not undo what the player has achieved". I find shield regen has some of that.

 

Yes, games are hard, it's an interesting thing. Of course this forum is mostly the hard core "I don't care if it feels bad to my opponent if I win I use it"...

 

But seriously, you don't find a difference in the feeling, the *feeling* which is not analyzable...

 

Roll, miss all the hits, you feel responsible for that bad luck.

Roll, see the evade, be told "No actually you did not just roll that".

 

VERY different.

 

Consider that Juke could have been (euh, well, don't check all possible game effects but you get my drift)... "if the defender rolled an Evade add a Hit to your die results". Just /how/ it got executed can change. (YES I KNOW SO MANY OTHER CARDS INTERACT WITH THIS I am not proposing this)

 

Anyways. An article that relates to how I feel these days...  http://dockingbay416.com/an-open-letter-to-the-x-wing-community/

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I think the OP's point is that it's not a positive thing when you get a great roll only to then be informed that dice don't matter because abilities/upgrades.

 

 

Then we really need to define what a "great roll" is...

 

Because the example he gave was all blanks vs one evade.... 

 

One evade on 5 Green Dice isn't great, for example :D

 

 

My whisper three games ago blanked on five dice - still I didn't feel as robbed as a tie fighter "Juke"ing me over and over! 8-O

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I think the OP's point is that it's not a positive thing when you get a great roll only to then be informed that dice don't matter because abilities/upgrades.

 

 

Then we really need to define what a "great roll" is...

 

Because the example he gave was all blanks vs one evade.... 

 

One evade on 5 Green Dice isn't great, for example :D

that's how I roll.

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"Do not undo what the player has achieved".

That's a design principle for co-op type games, not for competitive ones like this. What you have with thinks like Juke is one player having an upgrade they can use to effect the other player.

 

That's a fairly big part of games like these.  If I can't do something to effect the other guy's dice... Then the game becomes a lot more about random chance and less about tactics.

Edited by VanorDM

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And why does Juke-ing help the attacker? If I Juke I should avoid YOUR attacks...

 

Will agree, I think they could have come up with a better name for something that negates evades...

 

[...and, yes, I hate Omega Leader with Juke...maybe even more than the Baron  ;) - as someone's already said, at least Palpy's often in a space cow ]

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