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eljolly

RtL - Custom campaigns and side quests?

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Without randomization of the tiles, the replayability of a given quest, or campaign, deteriorates quickly.

 

Sure it is exciting the very FIRST time you play it, but that excitement of the unknown diminishes exponentially the more you play it.  Further, by randomizing the tiles from your ENTIRE collection, it allows for some very interesting dungeon crawls, especially if you actually own everything of D2e, as I do.  It would even make good business sense (for FFG), as this will tend to drive additional sales of their expansions.  Quite frankly, we are already seeing this, via anecdotes, of this exact thing happening.

 

If the dungeon tiles are not random, it becomes too easy to know that if you setup your heroes in such and such a position, it will be exactly X spaces to this critical area, etc.  This is a very simple example, but you can imagine other scenarios that if you know the precise layout of the dungeon ahead of time, it can impact the success factors for the heroes, and thus limit the enjoyment of game in the long run.

 

All of the above would be a moot point if content for the game came out every week.  I just don't think this will be the case.  I think we will be very fortunate to get 1 or 2 complete campaigns every year.  Another reason why I suspect people are asking for the ability of linking in the Quest Vault designs into the game, as this would provide a far larger content world.

Edited by any2cards

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Without randomization of the tiles, the replayability of a given quest, or campaign, deteriorates quickly.

 

Sure it is exciting the very FIRST time you play it, but that excitement of the unknown diminishes exponentially the more you play it.  Further, by randomizing the tiles from your ENTIRE collection, it allows for some very interesting dungeon crawls, especially if you actually own everything of D2e, as I do.  It would even make good business sense (for FFG), as this will tend to drive additional sales of their expansions.  Quite frankly, we are already seeing this, via anecdotes, of this exact thing happening.

 

If the dungeon tiles are not random, it becomes too easy to know that if you setup your heroes in such and such a position, it will be exactly X spaces to this critical area, etc.  This is a very simple example, but you can imagine other scenarios that if you know the precise layout of the dungeon ahead of time, it can impact the success factors for the heroes, and thus limit the enjoyment of game in the long run.

 

All of the above would be a moot point if content for the game came out every week.  I just don't think this will be the case.  I think we will be very fortunate to get 1 or 2 complete campaigns every year.  Another reason why I suspect people are asking for the ability of linking in the Quest Vault designs into the game, as this would provide a far larger content world.

 

Why can't I upvote this more.

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If only they'd tie it to Quest Vault and adopt RedJaks Automated Overlord system in it :-(

 

Would people be interested in a web app that would be a mix of Redjak Automated Overload with RtL-style automated monsters, and maybe Perils?

All of this with random generated dungeons like Warhammer Quest where you need to reach a specific room and slain the boss (Descent Lieutenant) ?

I really don't understand why people like random generated dungeon. I do understand the surprise factor on the shape of your dungeon, but you get the same feeling on a RtL quest ( if you have never played it).

I like a cohesive story trhough each tile of the dungeon I'm esploring. Until i get to the boss of the dungeon, but slain him may not be the solution to defeat the dungeon... it may be something else..!!  I like the story driven dungeon better.

Can someone who like the idea of the random generated dungeon tell me why a Random generated dungeon is overall a better idea? I might be missing something..!

I like the idea of being able to design a n encounter or complete campaign but being able to play the game as a cooperative. They've already made a great design tool in Quest Vault, they now have a fantastic delivery platform with RtL which has also proved the game can work well as a cooperative. I can't see that it would be that dramatic a leap to add a pdf viewer to view the published content of QV. Then have a new module to play RedJaks deck.

That way you'd be able to enjoy all the printed content to dat and these new more interactive scenarios. D2E has become even more popular now in my family as we can all play together against a virtual foe. I can still play it as designed with my friends, so it's the best of both worlds.

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I am for and against random dungeons for basically all the reasons that people have expressed.

 

I would like to see FFG come out with a campaign that you can play to it's conclusion in which all the quests have random tiles and objectives.

 

I also appreciate the narrative driven mini-campaign and Kindred Fire seems like it may follow in those steps. Descent's 1 vs All traditional Campaign had all quest knowledge open to all players (in most cases). I still enjoy the story and appreciate the time spent to craft it, even if you can ignore it completely and just play the encounters.

 

Basically, I'd like them to keep releasing new narrative campaigns, give us a a nice random dungeon generator for when we feel like just grinding out, and it would be AMAZING if they gave us a way to upload quests from the Quest Vault.

 

Now is all this in FFG best interest business wise? I dunno, but as a fan I'd like to see (and would support with my all mighty $) all 3 of these developments for the app.

Edited by Luijod

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Well, since Descent1 quests had always fixed maps and people had played Descent1 and 2 a lot being happy. Now this is no more acceptable for RtL app? I cannot avoid laughing  :)

Why's that? Who are you to say what people subjectively find "fun" to do with their boardgame toys? If you don't like totally random maps in a campaign mode and they come out with those, feel free to look down your nose at them and don't play them. The rest of us will be having fun while you pout.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a mix of both styles, which is fine by me. I like both playstyles for different reasons and depending on my mood.

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Well, since Descent1 quests had always fixed maps and people had played Descent1 and 2 a lot being happy. Now this is no more acceptable for RtL app? I cannot avoid laughing  :)

Why's that? Who are you to say what people subjectively find "fun" to do with their boardgame toys? If you don't like totally random maps in a campaign mode and they come out with those, feel free to look down your nose at them and don't play them. The rest of us will be having fun while you pout.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a mix of both styles, which is fine by me. I like both playstyles for different reasons and depending on my mood.

I feel like there was some underlying sarcasm in the initial statement that went over your head there. I may be wrong, but I interpreted tibia's comment as a sarcastic blow at humanities inability to just be content. Maybe I'm over analysing. Regardless, no need to accuse anyone of pouting or being the "fun" police.

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Well, since Descent1 quests had always fixed maps and people had played Descent1 and 2 a lot being happy. Now this is no more acceptable for RtL app? I cannot avoid laughing  :)

Why's that? Who are you to say what people subjectively find "fun" to do with their boardgame toys? If you don't like totally random maps in a campaign mode and they come out with those, feel free to look down your nose at them and don't play them. The rest of us will be having fun while you pout.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a mix of both styles, which is fine by me. I like both playstyles for different reasons and depending on my mood.

 

6c5d6f1b9fbc6c1e458dba54d8cc828cea561852

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Well, since Descent1 quests had always fixed maps and people had played Descent1 and 2 a lot being happy. Now this is no more acceptable for RtL app? I cannot avoid laughing  :)

Why's that? Who are you to say what people subjectively find "fun" to do with their boardgame toys? If you don't like totally random maps in a campaign mode and they come out with those, feel free to look down your nose at them and don't play them. The rest of us will be having fun while you pout.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a mix of both styles, which is fine by me. I like both playstyles for different reasons and depending on my mood.

I feel like there was some underlying sarcasm in the initial statement that went over your head there. I may be wrong, but I interpreted tibia's comment as a sarcastic blow at humanities inability to just be content. Maybe I'm over analysing. Regardless, no need to accuse anyone of pouting or being the "fun" police.

 

 

Fair enough. I apologize if that is indeed the case. I'm not accusing him of being the "fun police", those are your words. I am suggesting that it is subjective. Perhaps in the end we both have the same point, that different game mechanics are equally viable. Again, apologies if that was the intent.

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Perhaps his point was that Descent has existed for over a decade with fixed maps and it is a bit silly that people are all of a sudden losing their s*** that the tutorial quest of an app that we know very little about doesn't have random map generation.  It is possible I am putting words in his mouth so I will just say and how I interpreted his comment and that I agree with my interpretation of his comment.   

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I´m not exactly sure if it wasn´t said before, but it might be very easy to combine coop campaign style (predefined cards with monsters and tiles shuffled to decks and laid on one pile) and RtL to get randomized, yet working scenarios.

  1. Simply define entering tile.
  2. Then for example 2 opened doors will be randomly generated tiles (from FFG selected tiles, so we don´t have short corridor and another door) with randomly generated monster groups.
  3. After opening 3. doors there will be scenario tile with quest progress.
  4. another 2 doors of randomness.
  5. Quest finale on (for example) one of three choices of tiles.

Or more sophisticated ones:

  1. random rooms put into 3 piles.
  2. First pile has entering room first, then 2 random ones (+ some corridors) and pile ends with crossroads.
  3. Second pile (for example road left) contains 2 random rooms, then locked door, 2 random rooms and quest finale)
  4. Third pile (road right) contains 1 random room and then room with a mysterious key (obviously unlocks locked door, but heroes don´t know that if they haven´t been there yet).

 

I think this might be very easy to get it inside game. No hard programming, simply replace some steps with random choice from 1,2,3,4 (where numbers are predefined rooms).

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Yes, descent has existed long with fixed maps. But a human overlord's strategy can make any encounter different enough.

Also, descent is a physical boardgame, so it is in some ways limited. The app on the other hand could easily do things that would otherwise be impossible/harder to do in the physical game. But it doesn't, and that just feels like a missed opportunity..

 

Just answer me this: Why bother only showing the next tile when you open a door, when the result is fixed anyway? Just show the whole map then like a normal game of descent.

At least in the co-ops you had some form of surprise.

Edited by Atom4geVampire

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I don't understand why the presence

 

Well, since Descent1 quests had always fixed maps and people had played Descent1 and 2 a lot being happy. Now this is no more acceptable for RtL app? I cannot avoid laughing  :)

 

While it's true that Descent's printed box campaigns have always had fixed, printed maps, that's never been true of the overall Descent experience.  Descent comes with modular map tiles which can be rearranged in any manner the owner wishes to create a nearly limitless variety of quests to complete and dungeons to explore.  Descent players have never had to be content with fixed maps because we've never been limited to fixed maps.  If the box versions of Descent did not have modular map tiles, but instead had fixed, printed boards that gave players no way to rearrange the room and corridor layout Descent would not have become as popular as it is.  Descent's longevity is because it has solid gameplay and an inherent means to vary that gameplay because users can create their own dungeons and scenarios even after the campaigns are finished.

 

In contrast, Road to Legend is limited (currently) to a few printed maps which come with the campaign.  But that's not all that Descent is, and it never has been.  This departure from how we normally experience Descent is where the dissatisfaction comes from.  Many of us want Road to Legend to have the same ability to utilized different components, to mix and match board pieces from different sets, and create new and unique challenges that a human overlord does.  The app certainly has the power to do that, but FFG is not utilizing it and we don't understand why.

 

Scripted campaigns are a fun experience, and there will always be a market for that in Descent.  But I'm not aware of anyone that's saying we want RtL to give us random board generation instead of tightly crafted, scripted maps.  That would make no sense, because the two are not mutually exclusive, either from a conceptual or a marketing standpoint.  Players have always been able to create their own campaigns, and yet FFG continues to produce and sell campaign books and expansions.  I'm confident that the existence of a variable quest generator in the app would not hurt campaign sales at all and would in all likelihood increase sales due to the increased user base of the app.

 

I'll reiterate the point: imagine if Descent came with a few printed map boards instead of interchangeable map tiles.  How much limitation would that place on the potential variance of our gameplay experience?  How would that limitation affect  Descent's ability to captivate our imagination or affect how often we played the game?  Only offering scripted maps is as big a limitation to Road to Legend's potential as only offering static map boards would have been to vanilla Descent.

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Yes, descent has existed long with fixed maps. But a human overlord's strategy can make any encounter different enough.

Also, descent is a physical boardgame, so it is in some ways limited. The app on the other hand could easily do things that would otherwise be impossible/harder to do in the physical game. But it doesn't, and that just feels like a missed opportunity..

 

Just answer me this: Why bother only showing the next tile when you open a door, when the result is fixed anyway? Just show the whole map then like a normal game of descent.

At least in the co-ops you had some form of surprise.

I just believe it is too early to consider anything a missed opportunity.  We don't know their future plans for the app.  We have played a single campaign that only had 1 tutorial encounter, 2 side encounters and the main final encounter.  Who knows what they have in store.  I know it is the job of the internet to complain but at this point I just don't think we have enough information to make these complaints.

 

Personally I don't think the campaigns should have random map tiles.  I think they should be more focused on creating story and atmosphere.  The enjoyment of the initial play through should be paramount, not how good is it going to on subsequent plays.  Revealing map tiles as you advance on your first play through is much more exciting than seeing the entire map in front of you so why take that away from your first play through?  Does that answer your question?  

 

That being said I also think it would be a really cool option if you could choose a random encounter that the app would create for you if you didn't want to play a full campaign. They could charge for this option like the campaigns for those who want more randomization.   

 

I would most like to see the opportunity for fan generated content.  I would even pay for this if Fantasy Flight did something along the lines of a shared revenue with the creator.  I would understand them not wanting free fan made content available as it would probably impact the sales of their content.  However if they did something where a user could post a campaign at the same price as the FFG generated campaigns and every time it was purchased the creator of the campaign would receive a percentage in credit for FFGs online store.  I doubt this will happen but I think it would  mutually beneficial for both FFG and its customers.   

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Perhaps his point was that Descent has existed for over a decade with fixed maps and it is a bit silly that people are all of a sudden losing their s*** that the tutorial quest of an app that we know very little about doesn't have random map generation.  It is possible I am putting words in his mouth so I will just say and how I interpreted his comment and that I agree with my interpretation of his comment.   

 

Having been someone who actually did say that I'm going to chime in here.

 

I see both sides of the argument. I'd like to see some kind of random dungeon generator campaign released at some point. I'd also would hate if that came at the expense of the tired and true, fixed map structure, play-tested, narrative driven campaigns. And perhaps even more than anything else, I'd love to see the Quest Vault be integrated into this app, as others have suggested.

 

Now...

 

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Well, as for my opinion, I would say I would like some randomness on the maps. Not fully random as to make it imposible to create a story or a narrative play, but random enough (at least the rooms, like Forgotten Souls) in order to avoid this...

 

If the dungeon tiles are not random, it becomes too easy to know that if you setup your heroes in such and such a position, it will be exactly X spaces to this critical area, etc. 

[Emphasis made by me] 

 

We know it is possible, as there are three game mechanics that use this type of random rooms style (the other official coops). It still has the story and narrative play, but it prevents heroes for learning strategies in order to play mechanichally; which in my opinion kills the replay value of the game, no matter the narrative story.

 

In addition, ...

Why bother only showing the next tile when you open a door, when the result is fixed anyway? Just show the whole map then like a normal game of descent.

At least in the co-ops you had some form of surprise.

[Emphasis made by me].

 

I also acknowledge it is the free version of Road to Legend, but what I criticize is that if FFG keeps doing this so call "unexplored" dungeons, well, I won't see (at least myself) buying more campaings.

 

In conclusion, I think this is what should be understood by random dungeons and that FFG should change this particular mechanich in order to consider it worth the cost. 

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I just believe it is too early to consider anything a missed opportunity.  We don't know their future plans for the app.  We have played a single campaign that only had 1 tutorial encounter, 2 side encounters and the main final encounter.  Who knows what they have in store.  I know it is the job of the internet to complain but at this point I just don't think we have enough information to make these complaints.

 

Personally I don't think the campaigns should have random map tiles.  I think they should be more focused on creating story and atmosphere.  The enjoyment of the initial play through should be paramount, not how good is it going to on subsequent plays.  Revealing map tiles as you advance on your first play through is much more exciting than seeing the entire map in front of you so why take that away from your first play through?  Does that answer your question?  

 

I was intending to add a 'this is of course based on what we know now'. Also, more intended as feedback, less as a complaint.

 

And to be clear, my idea of a replayable dungeon would be something like:

[fixed starting tile]

[tile selected from 5 possible tiles depending on expansions you have, with same/similar story and gameplay(meaning: location of tokens, monsters), but offering a (slightly) different layout/terraintypes] Example: "You enter the dark hallway leading to the -important location- and find bla bla bla", where it could be a hallway tile from Base game, Labyrinth or even Bilehall

[random encounter tile]

[fixed main story tile]

...

 

This allows for the telling of a great story, but also allows replayability

Edited by Atom4geVampire

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And to be clear, my idea of a replayable dungeon would be something like:

[fixed starting tile]

[tile selected from 5 possible tiles depending on expansions you have, with same/similar story and gameplay(meaning: location of tokens, monsters), but offering a (slightly) different layout/terraintypes] Example: "You enter the dark hallway leading to the -important location- and find bla bla bla", where it could be a hallway tile from Base game, Labyrinth or even Bilehall

[random encounter tile]

[fixed main story tile]

...

 

This allows for the telling of a great story, but also allows replayability

 

I probably don't need to tell you, but random tile assembly into a map would not be an easy thing to code. Not only do the map tiles have variable sizes, but they also have varying connection locations and configurations. Even in the coop expansions, there has to be a provision for "if your tile assembly leads to an impossible situation, just get rid of the stuff from before that makes it impossible." However, that's dependent on the "isolated room" format of the coop play- you're constantly being pushed along by the doom track to the next room, and usually the exploration cards mandate that you eliminate any monsters before proceeding. RtL is different- you're backtracking, exploring, searching- in other words there is no assurance that when it comes time to erase a tile you won't still have heroes/monsters standing there. As a result, you'd need to be able to insure all the pieces would fit together correctly, and that means the app either needs to be able to assess what "correctly" is, or it has to be a pre-programmed map layout.

Edited by Zaltyre

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Since its all the rage these days in videogames (what RTL is when it comes down to it, its made in unity) to have randomly generated dungeons there are many tried and tested algorithms out there that can do just that.

(If anyone is at all interested in this here is a great, be it a lot more complex, example from one of my favorite games: )

Again a reason why I said that because the fact that this is an app and not a physical game, a lot more is possible. A check like this being one of those things.

Edited by Atom4geVampire

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I just believe it is too early to consider anything a missed opportunity.  We don't know their future plans for the app.  We have played a single campaign that only had 1 tutorial encounter, 2 side encounters and the main final encounter.  Who knows what they have in store.  I know it is the job of the internet to complain but at this point I just don't think we have enough information to make these complaints.

 

Personally I don't think the campaigns should have random map tiles.  I think they should be more focused on creating story and atmosphere.  The enjoyment of the initial play through should be paramount, not how good is it going to on subsequent plays.  Revealing map tiles as you advance on your first play through is much more exciting than seeing the entire map in front of you so why take that away from your first play through?  Does that answer your question?  

 

I was intending to add a 'this is of course based on what we know now'. Also, more intended as feedback, less as a complaint.

 

And to be clear, my idea of a replayable dungeon would be something like:

[fixed starting tile]

[tile selected from 5 possible tiles depending on expansions you have, with same/similar story and gameplay(meaning: location of tokens, monsters), but offering a (slightly) different layout/terraintypes] Example: "You enter the dark hallway leading to the -important location- and find bla bla bla", where it could be a hallway tile from Base game, Labyrinth or even Bilehall

[random encounter tile]

[fixed main story tile]

...

 

This allows for the telling of a great story, but also allows replayability

 

Isn't this what they did in the final encounter?

 

You have an option of two different doors with two different types of tiles and terrain on the other side, along with different monsters to face.  Once you chose one door there is no reason to go through the other.  So if you were to replay this quest you could chose the other one and have a different experience.  

Edited by quartersmostly

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descent has different sized tiles,, and different entry exit points   ,, i think it it could be algorithmicreized but then this need be curbed with tiles users have them tiles too...

it might down to how many extenders you have based on game expansions you own.. or ,,maybe a game extender pack?

AD&DAS games made it simple with only using  4x4 tiles  but its a very generic formulaic feeling.  the video you posted makes it look they they used different tile sizes .. so maybe they can fill in the gaps?   x  small tiles x medium tiles x large tiles...and  x corridor tiles   or with x extender tiles ,,, i'like ffg app based approach either way .. i think its a gold mine area seeking the magic touch 

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My 2 cents!

Random tiles could be a funny thing.. but let's take a look from another point of view !

Even if more and more companies are porting Boardgames to virtual... and some are even mixing both.. FFG is not (that I know) a company that does softwares, so it doesn't have many ressources for that.
And, doing this thing of randomisation is not and easy thing, this will need many time a lot of testing and above all a really huge amount of time to chasse and correct the bug's that will raise after !
So this would probably conduct FFG to grow is dev team ... not sure this is FFG intent.. but another consequence.. is that devs are only that : devs, so for desgn, rules and so on they will always need current FFG staf for that.. and the more they will need those staff.. the less they will be available for physical Boardgames !

So having random tiles in the app could be a good idea... and I will welcome it ...
But, from my point of view,, I will only causion that : if there is non impact on the Descent Boardgame line itself !

I prefer to have more an new physicall expansions for Descent than have the tiles randomisation ! .....

 

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Like I said, what is in the video is a 1000 times more complex than would be needed for this app. It was just to illustrate what is possible :)

I thought about it a bit more, and I don't even think an algorithm is needed, if you remove the 'completely random tile' part of my suggestion.

If they hand pick (which they could, a quest is not made up out of 50 tiles) the tiles, they could make sure everything fits together.

 

edit: 

 

I prefer to have more an new physicall expansions for Descent than have the tiles randomisation ! .....

True, and same here. But at the same time, I would love it if those cool new tiles that come with an expansion wouldn't be collecting dust if I'm not playing that specific expansion.

The app could have changed that (that one sidequest that an expansion adds doesn't scratch the itch :P)

Edited by Atom4geVampire

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Osydious and quartersmostly interpretation was correct  :)  People played Descent with fixed maps over a decade and they still do with the "current standard" Descent2 version of the boardgame (I didn't see any complaint about the "standard" campaign having fixed maps, maybe I missed them), but for the app the same approach got a lot of "terrible comments". Well ... are we really "serious" with these comments? Sorry that I let you misunderstand my "simple joke"  :) BTW, it would be a nice addon to have "random maps", but I think that the app, as it promises to be based on the demo is a great step from the standard co-op adventures. At least for us in Europe it will be quite easier to get grab on these new campaigns (I got also the original 3, but it was really "difficult"/expensive  ;) )

Edited by tibia

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Like I said, what is in the video is a 1000 times more complex than would be needed for this app. It was just to illustrate what is possible :)

I thought about it a bit more, and I don't even think an algorithm is needed, if you remove the 'completely random tile' part of my suggestion.

If they hand pick (which they could, a quest is not made up out of 50 tiles) the tiles, they could make sure everything fits together.

 

Yes put for example tile 10A in place of 11A could be done easily.. .. but there is no real difference! ;-)

Puting now 6A in place of 11A is also easy.. but what about balance ? you must adapt monster placement...

But putting 9A or even 8A in place of 11A (all these three are 4x4 tiles) could lead to some problems, as the final map wil change. OK, again it's easy to program and make 4/5 final maps possibilities.. but will all the choices be equivalent? with the same balance? .. not sure this part will be easy to evaluate..

 

And the problem is that a few tiles excluded the rest are rather different and changing them could lead to some unexpected results.

I'm not sure people will be OK if after some tests they conclude that when it's tile A they win but when it's tile B they lose every time!! ;-P

Again I prefer to have a balanced static quest, than a random that could be frustating : "oh **** tile B .. I'm already lost!!!"

But if they can achieve random / picked from X tiles quests that are balanced, of course I will be happy.. but just afraid this could absorb a lot of time.. time that could be used elsewhere .. ;-)

 

Edited by Felin

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