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Zszree

Committing Force Dice

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I have a rules mechanics question regarding committing Force dice.  

 

If I have a Force Rating of 2 (2 Force Dice) and say the Enhance Power with appropriate upgrades, can I Commit 1 Force Die to increase my Agility by 1 and do a Force Leap in the same round?  Is Committing a Force Die an action or a maneuver or an incidental?

 

Another question, if I have the Sense Power with appropriate upgrades, can I Commit 1 Force Die for Defense (upgrading checks against me) and 1 Force Die for Offense (upgrading my checks)?  How long does it take?  Is it an action or maneuver?  Would I have to spend a couple of rounds or strain (a second maneuver) to do this?

 

Thanks all!

 

Zszree

 

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So, if committing a Force die is an action and once i do it then it becomes an ongoing effect.  In my two examples above, then it would take two rounds to do what I would want.  The first round committing a Force die to increase my Agility, then the second round Force leaping as an action until I get the upgrade to do it as a maneuver.  The other example, I would spend the first round committing a Force die for Defense then a second round to commit the second Force die to Offense.  Or would you let this happen in one round?  As in I'm committing Force dice as an action, but for two different things.

 

Thanks again!

Z

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Committing a Force die is generally an action per separate effect activated.

 

So for the Enhance example, if you commit a Force die to increase your Agility, you can only do a Force Leap if you have the Control Upgrade that lets you use it as a maneuver.

 

For Sense, each Control Upgrade is a separate effect, so you'd need two actions to commit a Force die to each one.  So round one would be committing a die to the defense upgrade, and round two committing a die to the offensive upgrade.

 

Edit: That first sentence was a bit off the mark, so I've edited the post to more accurately reflect how some upgrades and talents allow for committing multiple Force dice, something that really wasn't in play until FaD came out.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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There are a couple of places where a Talent or Force Power either require multiple dice to be committed (Misdirect Duration upgrade) or where the specific wording is "Commit one or more..." in these cases it is a single action even though more than a single dice is being committed.

 

In other cases it says "Commit a force die to..." in those cases you need to perform an action for each dice you commit. some of these (such as the 2 sense upgrades) also limit you to committing only a single die those upgrades

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Committing a Force die is an action per die committed.

 

So for the Enhance example, if you commit a Force die to increase your Agility, you can only do a Force Leap if you have the Control Upgrade that lets you use it as a maneuver.

 

For Sense, each Control Upgrade is a separate effect, so you'd need two actions to commit a Force die to each one.  So round one would be committing a die to the defense upgrade, and round two committing a die to the offensive upgrade.

 

Never encountered this, and Richardbuxton addressed this specifically, but just to be sure, the bottom Control upgrade on Seek, which requires committing three dice doesn't take three actions, right? It's one effect so it only takes one action?

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Committing a Force die is an action per die committed.

 

So for the Enhance example, if you commit a Force die to increase your Agility, you can only do a Force Leap if you have the Control Upgrade that lets you use it as a maneuver.

 

For Sense, each Control Upgrade is a separate effect, so you'd need two actions to commit a Force die to each one.  So round one would be committing a die to the defense upgrade, and round two committing a die to the offensive upgrade.

 

Never encountered this, and Richardbuxton addressed this specifically, but just to be sure, the bottom Control upgrade on Seek, which requires committing three dice doesn't take three actions, right? It's one effect so it only takes one action?

 

One effect, so one action in that instance.  Otherwise, given that most combats tend not to last more than four rounds at most, by the time you got those dice committed, the fight'd be over.

 

There's other effects that allow you to commit multiple Force dice, both as upgrades to Force powers but also found in talents, and to my understanding so long as it's a single effect, it only takes a single action (or maneuver in the case of some talents) no matter how many Force dice you commit.

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So committing two force dice to raise my agility twice would take two actions?

Correct, during structured play its an action per force dice

There is a great side bare on FaD p282 about keeping force dice committed for longer periods of time, essentially not recovering strain until the dice are uncommitted if it's being over used.

In narrative time it's obviously something that just happens "we are dropping out of hyperspace shortly, I jump in my Starfighter and start the pre flight checks, while I'm doing that I also take the time to relax my mind and connect with the force around me, committing 2 of my force dice to agility"

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So committing two force dice to raise my agility twice would take two actions?

You can only raise Agility once. F&D 282 - "While an ongoing effect is active, the character may not activate that specific ongoing effect again (the character cannot be benefiting from two "copies" of the same ongoing effect)."

 

I think it's also important to note that when you end the effects of committing force die, although it only takes an incidental, it cannot be done until the end of your turn. So you cannot end the effect and utilize that force rating for a separate check in the same turn.

Edited by Holzy

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Thanks a lot all!  This really helps me understand how this mechanic works.  I've been DMing this system for about a year now and didn't really run into a lot of this until near the end.  I'm going to be playing in a Force and Destiny focused campaign specifically using the Enhance power for Force leaping and increasing Agility when needed.  Just wanted to clear up the cobwebs in my mind about this subject.

 

Thanks again!

 

Z

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I have only AoR and EotE, and this leaves me now even more puzzled. So I can not use enhance to commit more than one die into agility. Especially as activating a force power is considered one action. Not activating abilities from the force power, but activating the power itself. Which is in line with the whole "if you roll dice then it is an action thing". 

 

Back to my example, modified. 

Activating 'Enhance' and committing a die to brawn and a die to agility is two actions? 

 

A source would be appreciated so I can look this up next session easily. Seems not in line with AoR and EotE. (I get that FaD has the most recent and most accurate version of the rules)

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That'd be correct, in that committing a Force die to increase Agility and committing a Force die to increase Brawn are two separate actions.

 

As for a source, this comes from Sam Stewart courtesy of the FFG Developer Answered Questions thread over on the EotE forum.  My specific question was for Sense, but it'd apply to any "commit FD to gain benefit" upgrade or talent.
 

Question asked by Donovan Morningfire:

For the Sense power, could a PC with both the Ongoing Effect Control Upgrades activate them with a single Action, or would each Ongoing Effect require its own Action? I could honestly see this going either way, though I'm leaning towards the "single action to commit Force dice to each Ongoing Effect.

 

Answered by Sam Stewart:

Each ongoing effect requires an Action to activate (and you'd need the Force Rating to activate both as well).

 

However, on a related note:

 

 

Committing Force Die multiple times
Question asked by LethalDose:
The ongoing force powers allow characters to commit force dice to activate benefits. Is it possible to commit *more* force dice than is listed to receive the a greater benefit from the power? This, of course, provided the power does not explicitly forbid it. Example: A Jedi has Agi 2, Force rating 3, and Enhance with all of it's upgrades. Is it allowed for the Jedi, with a single activation of enhance's Agi control upgrade, to commit 2 (or all 3) of his force dice to said upgrade, increasing his Agi from 2 to 4 (or to 5, if all force dice are used). If not, is there *any* way for the Jedi to use Enhance's ongoing effects to increase either Brawn or Agility by *more* than one point.

Answered by Sam Stewart:
Unless the upgrade states otherwise, you may commit additional Force dice to increase the power. Thus, in your example, you may increase your Agility by as much as plus three, in the scenario you describe.
In a further response, he clarified that this is not considered multiple activations, but activating the effect once and triggering it multiple times.

 

Since the Control upgrades for Enhance in FaD state they can be activated multiple times, then you could commit multiple Force dice to increase your Agility or Brawn, but you'd have to commit all those dice in the same action.

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<sarcasm> Fantastic, so I can decide to pick whatever ruling I want, because the designers are unable to either to remember their own rules or unable to express their thoughts in a simple sentences before the books is going to the printer. </sarcasm>

 

Thanks anyway, you guys are great for pulling out of your memories so many great references. I really appreciate it. I have a little pity now for the international partners who are doing translations for this. 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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Longwinded post following, short version is i think that insufficient wording is the problem and the Devs have not contradicted themselves, personally i am happy that each Ongoing effect of Enhance can be used once (single action) to commit multiple force dice.

 

 

Since the Control upgrades for Enhance in FaD state they can be activated multiple times, then you could commit multiple Force dice to increase your Agility or Brawn, but you'd have to commit all those dice in the same action.

 

Huh? My copy of FaD has not got that in the descriptions;

 

Control Upgrade: This power gains the ongoing effect: Commit {}. The Force user increases their Brawn [or Agility] characteristic by 1 (to a maximum of 6).

 

The only place i see reference to multiple activations is on p281 which states;

 

Unless the power states otherwise, a Force user can activate the basic use or upgrades of a power multiple times to increase the effects of the power.

this is the same wording as the AoR core book where Enhance first appeared.

 

Now every other Force Power in FaD where committing multiple Force dice would increase the effect (ie not just maintaining an effect indefinitely) has different wording to the Enhance power. Some state specifically that:

 

 

The user may not activate this multiple times.

 

 Sense Defence/Offence and the Seek Vigilance&Perception Upgrade are the best examples of this.

 

In the 2 other relevant cases it states:

 

Commit one or more {}

The Misdirect Control upgrade, and Suppresses Control upgrade are the examples of this.

 

 

So i can definitely see some mixed messages here, which if i had to guess stem from the development of the AoR core book since the 2 that have the "Commit one or more" wording where both released in the FaD book. Im definitely on board with not being able to benefit from using an ongoing effect on different turns, so you cant commit one FD this turn then 2 turns later decide you want to commit another. I think its also a mess in regards to the wording of "Activating" and "Triggering" where the RAI (as far as i can tell) is that a Force Power is Activated once during an action(or occasionally a maneuver), while Triggering happens multiple times during the Activation of a power to use various effects of that power. Hence you can only "Activate" the ongoing effect once and not again while benefiting from that ongoing effect, but you can Trigger it multiple times during its activation.

 

Please please please make this be something that is clarified in some mystical "soon to be released" errata. 

 

 

 

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Committing Force Die multiple times

Question asked by LethalDose:

The ongoing force powers allow characters to commit force dice to activate benefits. Is it possible to commit *more* force dice than is listed to receive the a greater benefit from the power? This, of course, provided the power does not explicitly forbid it. Example: A Jedi has Agi 2, Force rating 3, and Enhance with all of it's upgrades. Is it allowed for the Jedi, with a single activation of enhance's Agi control upgrade, to commit 2 (or all 3) of his force dice to said upgrade, increasing his Agi from 2 to 4 (or to 5, if all force dice are used). If not, is there *any* way for the Jedi to use Enhance's ongoing effects to increase either Brawn or Agility by *more* than one point.

Answered by Sam Stewart:

Unless the upgrade states otherwise, you may commit additional Force dice to increase the power. Thus, in your example, you may increase your Agility by as much as plus three, in the scenario you describe.

In a further response, he clarified that this is not considered multiple activations, but activating the effect once and triggering it multiple times.

 

Since the Control upgrades for Enhance in FaD state they can be activated multiple times, then you could commit multiple Force dice to increase your Agility or Brawn, but you'd have to commit all those dice in the same action.

I F'n hate this kind of thing from Sam (not the first time I've see him respond this way). It may have been their/his intention when they wrote these rules but for F's sake keep it consistent across the RAW. Nearly every other rule it's the exact opposite that is true, that unless it says you can do something you can't. /Rant

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With regards to committing multiple Force Dice to increase Agility through Enhance multiple times, I'd say this (while, unfortunately, being 'Away From Book' right now);

 

I know the freedom in the system allows for a couple of different opinions. Some rules systems are permissive, only stating what you actually can do, other games are restrictive, going out of their way to show you what can't be done. One thing I noticed in a lot of rules systems, regardless of them being permissive or restrictive, is specific wording of rules. This is why I regret being AFB. Does the power say "Commit a Force Die to increase Agility by 1 as long as the Force Die remains committed", or does it say "Commit one Force Die to increase Agility by 1 as long as the Force Die remains committed"? In the latter rule "one", being a written form of number just like "two" or "five" or "two hundred", poses its own limit.

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As far as the "can activate upgrades multiple times unless specified otherwise," I'm probably thinking back to the FaD Beta, where the Force powers were changed so that rather than the old EotE/AoR default of "can only trigger once unless says otherwise" the rules got changed to "can trigger multiple times unless says otherwise."

 

However, if you look on page 281 of your Force and Destiny core rulebook, you'll see a section called "Activating Basic Powers and Upgrades of a Force Power Multiple Times."  Second sentence cites that unless the upgrade specifically says otherwise, then the default assumption is that it can be activated multiple times, provided you have the resources to do so.  The second paragraph does mention that most basic powers and upgrades should already list if they can or can't be activated multiple times, but obviously they've missed a few.

 

Since the Control Upgrades in Enhance for increasing Brawn and Agility don't say "can only trigger once," then per the above, you could assign multiple Force dice, just so long as doing so doesn't push the characteristic over a 6.

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So trying again to see if I get this straight:

 

Committing a die to brawn and one to agility are two actions and this can not be done in one activation of enhance?

Committing 3 dice to agility can be done in one activation of enhance. 

 

 

And now to something completely different which makes sense in context of the above:

I do not roll and spend generated force resources to activate an ongoing effect, the action is simply just committing those force dice and for that very reason I need to actions to activate two ongoing effects, because each one is it's own "check" even when I am not really rolling against anything. 

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First point is correct.

Second is correct some times. In the case of enhance your second point is correct, but there are some duration upgrades that happen at the end of resolving some kind of Force Power, Bind is a good example, so is Misdirect. Where it says "commit x Force Dice to maintain a Powers effects" that happens during the turn that the Force Power in question was activated.

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First point is correct.

Second is correct some times. In the case of enhance your second point is correct, but there are some duration upgrades that happen at the end of resolving some kind of Force Power, Bind is a good example, so is Misdirect. Where it says "commit x Force Dice to maintain a Powers effects" that happens during the turn that the Force Power in question was activated.

 

I assume that I can commit in those cases one of the force dices I just rolled to activate the power?  And in those cases the force power will mentioned that this is to "maintain a power"? 

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