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Fuzzywookie

Proxy "ing" cards, personal dilemma

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It is theft. You do not honor the game. I'm okay with proxy is saying... I enjoy watching this game die...Spin it however you like but that's the bottom line...

 

 

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I have yet to see anyone point out an expansion that gives someone a truly unfair advantage when playing X-Wing.

 

I mean there are expansions that have a large boost to some ships, but those are ships that underperform in the first place.  So the expansion really does nothing more then bring those ships on par.

 

I suppose you could try and argue that someone who owns 1 or 2 Imperial Veteran packs has an unfair advantage over someone who is also flying Defenders without it.

Agree 100% and WHO has the "Imperial Veterans Pack"? Man, I've been anxiously awaiting those ships/cards with a pre-order for ever? OK, thanks, now I'm frustrated

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I just want to point out that you are being rather insulting and condescending.  There is no need for it in a civil discussion.

 

 

I think that you are being rude by consistently failing to consider your points before you attempt to make them. So, I guess we will have to just be offended by each other.

 

 

 

 

 

What advantage does an Khiraxz expansion provide over players who only have the X-Wing expansion?

 

What advantage does a Syck Interceptor expansion provide over players who only have the TIE Fighter expansion?

 

What advantage does the VCX expansion provide over players who only have the Aggressor expansion?

 

 

1) Crack Shot and Predator

2) Stealth Device

3) Cluster Mines, Conner Net, Predator, Reinforced Deflector Shields, and Thermal Detonators. 

 

I did not ask what unique components those expansion bring to the game. This is your problem. You are not thinking. I asked, very specifically, what advantage one expansion provides over the other. Crack Shot is not necessarily an advantage because there are alternatives to Crack Shot that, when utilized, put a player on an equal footing with an opponent who is using Crack Shot. The same is true for the other cards that you listed.

 

 

I have yet to see anyone point out an expansion that gives someone a truly unfair advantage when playing X-Wing.

 

I mean there are expansions that have a large boost to some ships, but those are ships that underperform in the first place.  So the expansion really does nothing more then bring those ships on par.

 

I suppose you could try and argue that someone who owns 1 or 2 Imperial Veteran packs has an unfair advantage over someone who is also flying Defenders without it.

 

But that's a pretty nonsense argument since Defenders aren't the only choice someone has.  I mean that's like saying guns are pay-to-win in a knife fight.

 

Other than the TIE Advanced titles and Defender titles (which you even mention in the same post)?

 

Whether or not an expansion launches a ship into the stratosphere or just lifts it off the ground is irrelevant if we are discussing the fact that X-Wing requires players who previously purchased certain ships to purchase future products to make those ships competitive.

 

How do you know what choices someone has? A choice is only a choice if it is available. If someone spent all of their money on a two TIE Defender expansions, then purchasing Imperial Veterans in not a choice.

 

No it is not like saying that. How could that possibly be considered a valid comparison? It is like saying that it is unfair that two people show up for a knife fight, are given access to a choice of knives, and then are both given the option of purchasing a gun.

Edited by Rapture

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[...] If you can't afford it or don't want to pay for it, then you can't play with it.[...]

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  I assume you mean that if someone uses a proxy card when they play, you won't play with them.

 

I'm good with that and that is your call.  But many people do proxy cards while playing and have very enjoyable times.

 

I also understand you don't play with what you don't have.  Again that is your call.  I don't play with ships I don't own.  But I was some pictures of Wings of Glory WWI being played at PraugeCon.  There were using Disney planes from the movie Airplanes.  Official proxies there and they still enjoyed themselves.

 

 

It is theft. You do not honor the game. I'm okay with proxy is saying... I enjoy watching this game die...Spin it however you like but that's the bottom line...

 

I think you comment is both harsh and not very accurate.  I own, in my humble opinion, a lot of ships and I don't think proxying a few cards is me saying 'I enjoy watching this game die'.  Seriously don't you think you're being a little over dramatic or emotional?

 

While most people both have and share their opinions I doubt some universal undeniable and indisputable truth is being set forth in these shared opinions on this subject.  Your's too I'm afraid.  They are simple opinions (or emotional feelings) and in this context have the same amount of weight or truth as everyone else's.

 

Sorry but your phrasing alone will cause many to simply dismiss your comment without even considering it's sentiment.

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You could say that someone who owns more expansions has more options than someone who owns fewer... But that is again not pay-to-win, because more options aren't inherently better.

Let's assume that were true for a moment.

Currently I'm playing a triple Scout list (3xscout with Deadeye, R4 agromech, Extra Munitions, Chips, 2 plasma and 1 Proton Torp). This list has required:

3 Jumpmasters (duh)

3 K-wing/Punisher (Extra Munitions)

3 A-wing/TIE Adv. Prototype (Deadeye)

2 Most Wanted (R4 Agromech)

If owning these 8 expansions apart from the JM5Ks doesn't give me an advantage, it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a list of roughly equal power using let's say 3 expansions (for a 3 ship list). Care to try?

Edited by LordBlades

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Proxying the cards doesn't bother me, as long as they have a printed squadron list.  I personally find it easier to play from a squadron list, and to read my opponent's squadron list, than from cards.  If he's got a list, I'd never even ask to see the cards in a tournament, though I would like my opponent to have at least one copy of each pilot and upgrade with him.

 

(As an aside, I asked everyone at Fresno if they were okay with me playing from the printed list (with the cards present), and everybody said it was fine.  Most of them looked at me like, "I'm not sure why you even feel the need to ask.")

 

Proxying models ... only for playtesting and super-casual games.  It tickles my OCD.

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I just want to point out that you are being rather insulting and condescending.  There is no need for it in a civil discussion.

 

 

I think that you are being rude by consistently failing to consider your points before you attempt to make them. So, I guess we will have to just be offended by each other.

 

Your attitude has led you to become the first person on my ignore list.  It's a shame you feel the need to be rude.

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If owning these 8 expansions apart from the JM5Ks doesn't give me an advantage, it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a list of roughly equal power using let's say 3 expansions (for a 3 ship list). Care to try?

Bloody Daggers. Core, B-Wing and X-Wing. Easily the same level of power as those back in the day.

BBBBZ is was also quite killer.

Then pretty much anything with Whisper in it.

If you honestly believe that triple scouts is inherently unfair, or inherently more powerful than any other list someone came up with... Then perhaps you have a point. But I reject the premise that triple scouts is unbeatable or even gives you a huge advantage over any other list out there.

But given the massive illogic presented by the "Pay-to-Win" camp and the way they twist the meaning of the phrase to suit their argument... I'm done. It's not like anything I say will actually change a mind once it's been set.

 

Because again... Pay-to-Win means that you are able to buy something that gives you an unfair advantage over people only use items that can be gained through in-game accomplishments. Or at the least things that are marketed with the intention that people will buy it because it is inherently and intentionally unbalanced.

Edited by VanorDM

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Other than the TIE Advanced titles and Defender titles?

I'd ask if you were being intentionally obtuse... But I already know the answer, you are.

 

 

So, you disagree? You do not think that someone playing the TIE Advanced or Defender with a title has an, as you put it,  "truly unfair advantage" over a player who does not have the titles?

 

 

Your attitude has led you to become the first person on my ignore list.  It's a shame you feel the need to be rude.

 

 

Feel free to stamp your feet on the way out.

Edited by Rapture

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I've spent a lot of money on X-Wing. I never play with things I don't have. I love playing. When someone plays a list for a few weeks and not get the cards. Drives me nuts. Am I the only one who feels this way? I hope not. Buy the dang ships peeps. I do.

Your insistence on buying into Fantasy Flight Games' business model is your cross to bear.

 

Some people just want to play the game. They've got the ships they play with. Insisting they buy $15 ships they won't play just to obtain some specific pieces of cardstock with some rules on it is silly.

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Whether or not an expansion launches a ship into the stratosphere or just lifts it off the ground is irrelevant if we are discussing the fact that X-Wing requires players who previously purchased certain ships to purchase future products to make those ships competitive.

 

That's not Pay to Win though, that's pay to patch your old ship up to standard. Buying Imp Vets doesn't give you an advantage over the Fat Falcons, Palp Aces, TIE swarms and U-Boats of the world. It's strictly better than the TIE defender but that's because the TIE swarm was behind.

 

Some expansions not being up to snuff doesn't make the ones that are Pay To Win.

 

How do you know what choices someone has? A choice is only a choice if it is available. If someone spent all of their money on a two TIE Defender expansions, then purchasing Imperial Veterans in not a choice.

 

I'm failing to see the connection to Pay To Win here.

 

No it is not like saying that. How could that possibly be considered a valid comparison? It is like saying that it is unfair that two people show up for a knife fight, are given access to a choice of knives, and then are both given the option of purchasing a gun.

 

That'd be true if the rest of the game was on the level of the original TIE defender.

 

 

You keep defining Pay To Win correctly (paying for something that gives you a significant advantage over the players that do not) then somehow make the jump to fixes being in different expansions being Pay To Win. I'm not seeing the link here.

 

Who are you paying to win against with Imperial Veterans?

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I personally don't ever proxy. I view it as a challenge to get a fun list together without everything. That being said, I have no issues with someone else using a proxy upgrade/pilot in a casual setting. Tournaments however, I would insist that my opponent must have the real cards needed.

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I'm fine with proxy of cards in casual.  Ships/pilots, it annoys me.  Especially when they use a pilot with a different skill number.

 

But what I really hate is people attempting to proxy bombs.  No.  Bad.

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Guys, you'll never reach consensus if you keep treating Pay To Win as a nebulous perjorative.

 

To call X-Wing itself Pay To Win isn't helpful: of course it is: you have to buy it to play it in the first place.

 

To meaningfully claim something is Pay To Win you need to define who you're paying to win against. If you say X-Wing itself is Pay To Win then you're paying to win against someone who didn't buy X-Wing.

 

You could claim a particular expansion is Pay To Win against players that do not buy it, but it ceases to make sense if you claim the game itself is Pay To Win.

 

But what I really hate is people attempting to proxy bombs.  No.  Bad.

 

Proxying mines I get. Bombs? All the tokens are the same size.

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Whether or not an expansion launches a ship into the stratosphere or just lifts it off the ground is irrelevant if we are discussing the fact that X-Wing requires players who previously purchased certain ships to purchase future products to make those ships competitive.

 

That's not Pay to Win though, that's pay to patch your old ship up to standard. Buying Imp Vets doesn't give you an advantage over the Fat Falcons, Palp Aces, TIE swarms and U-Boats of the world. It's strictly better than the TIE defender but that's because the TIE swarm was behind.

 

Some expansions not being up to snuff doesn't make the ones that are Pay To Win.

 

Tell that to a player who currently owns a squad of Defenders who uses them in a game against a player who purchases two sets of Imperial Aces for his squad of Defenders. All other things being equal, the player with the titles will win consistently. Because of his expenditure of funds, he will win. If that is not pay-to-win, what is it? Pay-to-upgrade-for-no-in-game-cost? That is a different way of saying the same thing.

 

It is not the fact that some expansions that are not up to snuff that makes it a pay-to-win situation, it is that spending money gives you a better chance of winning. This is not because of poorly designed expansions, but because of the way that those expansions are fixed through purchases.

 

 

 

You keep defining Pay To Win correctly (paying for something that gives you a significant advantage over the players that do not) then somehow make the jump to fixes being in different expansions being Pay To Win. I'm not seeing the link here.

 

Who are you paying to win against with Imperial Veterans?

 

 

Other Defenders. As the game grows, players who have previously purchased products are being required to make subsequent purchases in order to be competitive against products that they already (with the exception of the fixes) own. I have repeated stated that the game as a whole is not pay-to-win and that only certain aspects fit that term. Buying an a second product significantly improves the TIE Advanced and TIE Defender expansions with no in-game cost. In exchange for money, a players ships objectively get better.

Edited by Rapture

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Proxying mines I get. Bombs? All the tokens are the same size.

 

I meant things from the bomb slot.  I can't remember which ones were being proxied, but they weren't anything like the same size and the tokens the person had.

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Other than the TIE Advanced titles and Defender titles?

I'd ask if you were being intentionally obtuse... But I already know the answer, you are.

 

 

So, you disagree? You do not think that someone playing the TIE Advanced or Defender with a title has an, as you put it,  "truly unfair advantage" over a player who does not have the titles?

 

Those are fixes to ships that were severely underpowered. Obviously the post-fix version is superior to the original; but that doesn't make it superior to anything else in the meta. 

 

So if you're going to call those titles anything, it should be pay-to-fix.

 

If the TIE Advanced expansion and Raider expansion were released simultaneously, then yes - maybe I would call that pay-to-win. But clearly FFG is retroactively trying to pull a ship out from the gutter. That is simply not pay-to-win no matter how you slice it.

 

And can we all please try to be a bit less rude to each other. It's unnecessary and only Tuesday.

Edited by zerotc

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Tell that to a player who currently owns a squad of Defenders who uses them in a game against a player who purchases two sets of Imperial Aces for his squad of Defenders. All other things being equal, the player with the titles will win consistently. Because of his expenditure of funds, he will win. If that is not pay-to-win, what is it? Pay-to-upgrade-for-no-in-game-cost? That is a different way of saying the same thing.

 

Swap out Imperial Veterans for three Jumpmasters, a set of Palpatine Aces, a Wave 1 TIE swarm, or just about any competitively viable list and this still holds. You're claiming something is Pay To Win by comparing it to something which sucks.

 

If it were Pay To Win, it'd give you an advantage over players that do not buy it. If the other player is only running original TIE defenders you have that advantage anyway if you run something competitive, regardless of if you bought Imp Vets or not.

 

Other Defenders. As the game grows, players who have previously purchased products are being required to make subsequent purchases in order to be competitive against products that they already (with the exception of the fixes) own. I have repeated stated that the game as a whole is not pay-to-win and that only certain aspects fit that term. Buying an a second product significantly improves the TIE Advanced and TIE Defender expansions with no in-game cost. In exchange for money, a players ships objectively get better.

 

Having to buy the balance patch for a ship you already bought isn't great, but it doesn't fit the definition of Pay To Win. Yes, a player who buys Imperial Veterans will probably beat a player who only runs original blister defenders but to treat X-Wing as a game of TIE defenders only is a completely unrealistic scenario. X-Wing is not a TIE defender only game.

 

Buying Imperial Veterans does not put you at an advantage against players that do not buy Imperial Veterans because those players can run any non-TIE defender list in the game. To claim Imperial Veterans is Pay To Win against a player that only buys original TIE defenders is like claiming almost every ship in the game is Pay To Win against Scyks.

 

Your greivance is legitimate but Pay To Win is not the term to describe it. Someone said Pay To Fix a few posts up which'd be a meaningful descriptor, but Pay To Win is not.

Edited by Blue Five

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I struggle to find time to play X-Wing as it is, and therefore X-Wing epic doesn't work for me.  I see epic play as another different game (yet similar) altogether than normal X-Wing.  Some might argue against that, but there's enough there to say that the thought has merit to it. 

 

Suffice it to say, having to buy something from a game I don't play, just to get cards for a game I do play, to me is ridiculous.  THAT is why I think proxing is perfectly fine.  If I could buy these upgrade cards in packs or separately at a reasonable price ($20+ for a single piece of thin cardboard half the size of a business card is not reasonable) than I would.   

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Been out playing at my FLGS this evening and couldn't help but be reminded of this thread. No word of a lie, the following games all took place...

I played against a Double IG List. The other player had forgotten his cards, he didn't have a print out and no one had the stuff he needed with them to lend him. We just remembered what he had in our heads.

The next table along, one player was was running a dual Falcon list (Chewie & Lando). He had the bases but no ships at all for some reason.

The store owner was running a 5x A-Wing list, all with Crackshot. He didn't have enough cards.

Did any of this have any detrimental effect on the fun we all had this evening? Not one bit. A good time was had by all, and isn't that what it's all supposed to be about? :-)

Edited by Richard_Thomas_

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