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Fuzzywookie

Proxy "ing" cards, personal dilemma

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I will do my best to lend cards/models needed to complete the list officially. But failing that, casual games dont matter. If you're there just to have fun or to practice/test for a tournament then your opponent being happy and able to play with everything he needs is more important for an honest game.

In a tournament, proxies are not allowed and should not be allowed .. ever.

If you have a problem with people in your community using proxies in casual games, I would dare say it sounds like you want to try playing in actual tournaments where the legitimacy of your purchases will be more defined.

The flip side is that if you want to build a community that supports tournament play, you will not want to alienate people who can't afford to purchase everything .. and allow them to play proxies in casual games so they get more drawn in. Draw the line at tournaments, forcing them to purchase or at least borrow what they need.

Edited by Tenka

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Unlike a CCG where cards get moved around and shuffled and have much chance for showing wear and tear I can understand the need for proxys.

 

However as I keep saying X-wing is not a card game. The cards don't get shuffled with the exception of the damage deck. No one plays a card looks at hand or anything else for the most part they sit on a table. Heck you can even just have a print out and show the cards on your roster in a binder.

 

If you want to try cards you don't have well then there is vassal.

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I've spent a lot of money on X-Wing. I never play with things I don't have. I love playing. When someone plays a list for a few weeks and not get the cards. Drives me nuts. Am I the only one who feels this way? I hope not. Buy the dang ships peeps. I do.

I have a large collection of this game. I just picked up a 3rd and 4th Mist Hunter, and I ordered a 3rd and 4th Attack Shuttle off Ebay. I've spent a lot of money on this game.

I do not feel the need to make people suffer with me, proxy all you want.

Is it just me, or is the Wookie avatar that Fuzzywookie uses stupid looking? Like he just has his mouth agape. And the Protocol Droid/C-3PO head on the red background has these eyes that make him look as if he's on some sort of drug.

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As a newb to the game, I've been trying to learn from the ground up, going wave by wave in mostly order. So far I haven't had to buy anything I didn't want to have, although I don't really want to get into the epic ships and S&V sets. That point is coming up, and I don't know what I will do. Probably proxy some cards like autothruster, but maybe just buy the viper and get them there. For me, all play is casual at this point, so I guess it's whatever gets more people into the game. If they start digging it and having a good time, it'll just built the community and they will eventually spend even more discretionary money on this thing! :-)

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Proxy-ing cards in casual games I have no issue with. I don't see any harm in it whatsoever.

Proxy-ing cards in official tournaments on the other hand? Just no. I view it as a courtesy to all other participants that, when you enter the tournament, you should abide by ALL rules, including the 'no proxies' one. I would however lend any cards I have and don't use to any tournament participant that asks me to.

I never saw anyone Proxy-ing ships. How does that even work? You need the dial to play and with 2 exceptions (Most Wanted and Hound's Tooth) you can't get the dial without the ship.

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In casual play I would prefer to play, rather than say no, you don't have the right cards. I am waiting for some stuff from Miniature Market, has been over 3 weeks since I have ordered it, I am in Australia so I expect a maybe 2 week wait, but 3 weeks is crazy. My point is I have bought the expansions, but due to no fault of my own they are on a ship or on the bottom of the ocean in a cargo container somewhere. Maybe people just don't have the funds to buy everything but just want to play, I encourage that more than having the right cards. 

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A long time ago I saw a guy proxying cards in a tournament and I was angry. Not so much that I said anything about it, but internally I was pissed. Here's why:

Wave 4 had recently come out. I wanted to run 4 ships with Predator, but the only way to get Predator at the time was to buy a TIE Defender. Now, TIE Defenders were overpriced from the beginning, but I bought 2 at launch and eventually a 3rd JUST for the 3rd Predator card. I couldn't afford a 4th one though, so I only had 3 Predator upgrade cards. In the end I had to change my list to be only 3 Predators and 1 Outmaneuver. I did ok, but not that well.

Turns out this guy who was proxying cards, had proxied a Predator card. There it was, printed out on printer paper with faded ink from an inkjet printer... And I'm like "Wow, so I didn't have to buy that 3rd Defender after all huh? Should have just printed all my cards and saved a load of cash!" - Plus I could have gone with my original list plan, had we all been on the same footing.

Like you, I wouldn't proxy stuff either, but that's just a decision we've both made.

If the guy in your tournament had gone out and bought a Predator card, borrowed one from a friend or printed one out the end result would have been exactly the same.

We can't expect everyone to live by the same moral code as ourselves and so unless someone was cheating and spoiling my outcome, I'd just be happy that I'd stuck to my moral code and done as well as I did with what I had.

Edited by Richard_Thomas_

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I don't play in tournaments but I wouldn't proxy stuff there if I went to one. But I do enjoy making my own custom tokens and ships and at times playing with proxy cards. I think its more healthy for people to play and experiment with cards they don't have as that may influence future purchases. The idea of proxies killing the game is nonsense, unless your game store has everyone playing x-wing with paper stand ups instead of miniatures its not something to worry about.

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It is theft. You do not honor the game. I'm okay with proxy is saying... I enjoy watching this game die...Spin it however you like but that's the bottom line...

LOL! No it's really not. If you're playing in a tournament and the entry rules say no proxies, then no proxies. If I'm playing a casual game with my friends I see no reason I should buy 2 star vipers just so I can field my 4 a wings with autothrusters. As a matter of courtesy I usually ask any opponent I'm not used to playing if they mind if I proxie a card or two before I plan a list.

 

 

This is what I think should be right.  

 

--

 

The rest of you hardcore no proxy people are really beginning to sound really like not the people I want to meet.  So much bitterness and moral high grounding.  

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Proxy models? No need, I will give you mine.

Proxy upgrade cards? Of course. Next time we will play Epic I will field a EW GR 75. And two K wings with Thermal Detonators. I own 2 Ghost ( minimun 2 each ). I need 4 detonators, only own two. High Quality colour print, all of them.

Buy models, not cards. If you go tournament, it is another world.

And... If you proxy and I not, my MORAL CODE is higher than yours. JAJAJA.

Dear FFG. I own 300+ ships. I proxy extra Thermal Detonators and Draw their Fire. Playing.casual. Is my.Code OK.or I should stop.buying ?

Edited by Hexdot

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I don´t get the way proxy have a bad influence on the game . 

 

That is not true.

 

 

In my case i bought myself a second Jumpmaster because i have seen a list on Stele open i really wanted to play and its never wrong to have two of this lovely boats .

 

So ,to play the list as intended i needed a extra munition proxy .

 

And playing this list with the extra munition proxy showed me, that if i want to play tournaments with this list and its my new favorite list , i have to and i will buy another expansion the tie Punisher for example.

 

So using the proxy had not such magnificent negative  influence as a lot of u guys think. And its not dishonorable .  :/

 

Its not morally and economically questionable its just a way to figure out what u really need for a list u want to play on tournament .

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Personally the only time I proxy is if I am running say 4 TIE/in and only have 2 autothrusters. But then I buy more ships than I should.

I have friends however that I know have low income and CANNOT afford to buy the ships just for upgrades or are just getting into the game and want to try before they buy. in these situations I have no problems with them proxying. If you have the time and opportunities to buy a ship with cards you want to use though, play fair and buy it give the game you enjoy your money.

Also I have on a few occasions now purchased non-imperial ships, took the cars I need and passed the ship on to a friend that plays that faction. This to me helps me, my mate and FFG.

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One of the reasons I won't buy the Ghost is actually a compassion thing for the piece itself:  I'm not sure I'd love it as a toy.  I can't fit it in my storage.  I wouldn't really want to give it good play time.  I don't want to in the future be concerned about buying new stuff if it ever needs a Fix.  

Also, that base is so awkward. 

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I would never call a TO for proxying, I understand why this rule is in place (FFG is not charity), but I don't get why would I want to enforce it. If I go to a tournament I want to actually play some games and I don't see how my opponent not having few cards would make my experience any worse.

(unless someone wants to proxy 3 U-boots, in this case no mercy :P )

I do not know that I can say it better than this.

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Buy models, not cards.

Exactly that!

I come from a video gamer background and we've got a clear term for the way X-Wing deals with cards: pay-to-win.

And it's the first time I see gamers say they have the high morale ground because they fully adhere to this pay-to-win aspect of the game.

Don't get me wrong: if it only was a matter of having less choice if you don't buy ships only for their upgrade cards, but still being able to fly the ships you like; or if ships came in fully ready like OL, this wouldn't qualify as pay to win.

But it's not the case. Cards with 0 cost price or cards fixing previous ships definitively qualify as "you need to pay in order to win", even if you've bought the ship.

I love flying interceptors and I've bought the expansion and the aces. Why should I need to buy other ships (which i dont want to fly!!) to get AT and Stealth Device? If I had other valid choices instead of those cards , why not? But it's not the case.

I'm sorry if my post sounds like a rant, this actually doesn't bother me much as I don't hesitate to proxy when I play with my son (he's OK with it fortunately) and I've always found other players from whom to borrow cards I needed for tournaments (and have been able to provide cards to other players).

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The way I see it, having the official cards only matters in tournaments.  If you are playing a friendly game, you can do what you want.  Make up your own crazy rules or play your own crazy mission or play with proxied cards.  No worries.

 

In fact, before Integrated Astromech was official released, I printed out a bunch of cards and handed them out to friends to encourage them to play T-65's on the table top in friendly games.  Also, if I run a big Trench Run or Epic event, I don't own enough Integrated Astromech cards for all the X-wings on the table.  I'll just make my own cards and have fun with it.  

 

I buy almost every ship and often more than 1.  I will let anyone borrow any card.  If I don't have enough of one card to do whatever crazy stunt I'm going to do, I will proxy it.  

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I play casual. Would like more tournaments one day. I proxy cards. Everyone does. Use a squadbuilder. Set up faster. No buying 4 Advanced Prototypes and 4 Punishers so when fly 4 Bombers they have their own guidance chips and extra munitions. Buying the game gives access to the rules. Whether written in a book or on cards.

I have a small collection of 22-25 ships spread over all 3 factions. Guests don't have to drag their own stuff and I can introduce people to the game. I keep the collection fairly balanced and use the flavour and feel of each faction to create a difference. We have Fun. It is a game;

A great SciFi background and plastic ships.

Try to see the relative side people.

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I've seen the "I payed a lot of money for this game, so everyone else should do to" among other gamers, and it's ... well, I don't understand it. I don't get bothered by the people who paid less for a car than me, or the people who drink own-brand "Iron Brew" instead of the real stuff; why is this any different?

The only important bit of the cards is the data - as long as you've got that, I don't care how you got it (three copies of the actual card, one copy and saying "all three of these ships have this upgrade", printouts off the internet or even, if I trust you enough, scribbled on the back of a napkin).

The only moral issue for me might be that the wiki and the various squad builders are infringing copyright by hosting scans of the cards or transcripts of the text, but it doesn't seem to bother FFG, and I don't work for them so it's not my concern.

In tournaments, it's only an issue because it's in the rues for the event. If my opponent doesn't have all the correct cards, I'm not going to shop him to the judges, but if gets caught and ejected, well, he knew the rules. If that restriction was removed tomorrow, I can't see any way in which it could negatively affect the game.

Edited by AndrewGPaul

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I've spent a lot of money on X-Wing. I never play with things I don't have. I love playing. When someone plays a list for a few weeks and not get the cards. Drives me nuts. Am I the only one who feels this way? I hope not. Buy the dang ships peeps. I do.

 

I'm glad you care so much about pushing FFG's profit margins up a bit.

 

They bought the ships they're using. To make them buy ships they won't for a few lines of rules text is silly.

 

FFG tournament, sure, it's in the rules. But everywhere else encouraging buying ships for cards is as stupid is buying ships for cards is anyway.

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I'm all in for card proxy. With my current partners we don't even use upgrade cards, just printed lists.
You got the model, you play it, whatever "cards" you use on it.
Having to buy a ship you don't like/use to get a card fot your ship is something I hate about FFG, especially when it applies to fixes. Advanced fix in the raider was the most hatable way to do it...

Edited by Giledhil

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I come from a video gamer background and we've got a clear term for the way X-Wing deals with cards: pay-to-win.

It's not even remotely the same thing.

In a Pay-to-Win thing, you have to pay real money for an item or power that is clearly better than anything else you can get in the game. In X-Wing no upgrade is going to win you a game, it may help but just putting 3PO or Palp on a ship is not going to give you a massive advantage over people.

 

Pay-to-Win is what Games Workshop did with their anniversary space marine who has a massively OP'ed weapon for the same point value as a stock marine... Only they were only sold for two days and cost $35-40.

 

In X-Wing you aren't paying to win, you're paying to play.

 

I got no problem with proxies myself in casual games.  But I do think if you play in a tournament you need to follow all the rules.

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I come from a video gamer background and we've got a clear term for the way X-Wing deals with cards: pay-to-win.

 

 

It's not like you don't get an Epic ship that you can actually play in Epic or Cinematic games.  Yeah, everyone is so into the tournament scene and heaven forbid you actually play a non-tournament game.  That's your issue, though.  It's not like you are spending x amount of money on just a card.  You actually get a really cool product and mini campaign.  If you refuse to actually use it, then the onus is on you.  

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In a Pay-to-Win thing, you have to pay real money for an item or power that is clearly better than anything else you can get in the game. In X-Wing no upgrade is going to win you a game, it may help but just putting 3PO or Palp on a ship is not going to give you a massive advantage over people.

 

Pay-to-Win is what Games Workshop did with their anniversary space marine who has a massively OP'ed weapon for the same point value as a stock marine... Only they were only sold for two days and cost $35-40.

 

In X-Wing you aren't paying to win, you're paying to play.

 

 

How is that Space Marine example different in any way than the Advanced Targeting Computer?

 

X-Wing has pay-to-win cards. The Advanced Targeting Computer is the only one that I can think of that fits that definition 100%. The Chardaan Refit and Integrated Astromech are also pay-to-win with the only counter argument being that players can utilize either missiles or alternative modifications that benefit the ship equally (which is generally not true).

 

 

I got no problem with proxies myself in casual games.  But I do think if you play in a tournament you need to follow all the rules.

 

 

There are good rules and bad rules. If a rule provides no benefit and ignoring it does not change them game in any way, then there is no reason to follow it. The only arguably compelling argument against proxies that is available is that they may contain errors or modifications in the rule language (I have not heard of anyone dumb enough to try this yet).

 

 

 

 

I come from a video gamer background and we've got a clear term for the way X-Wing deals with cards: pay-to-win.

 

 

It's not like you don't get an Epic ship that you can actually play in Epic or Cinematic games.  Yeah, everyone is so into the tournament scene and heaven forbid you actually play a non-tournament game.  That's your issue, though.  It's not like you are spending x amount of money on just a card.  You actually get a really cool product and mini campaign.  If you refuse to actually use it, then the onus is on you.  

 

 

What does getting some form of value, which you seem content to ignore that some people do not want, have to do with whether or not something is pay-to-win?

Edited by Rapture

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I spent about 1000 $ on this game and would never have a problem playing against proxy cards - in casual or tournament setting. Having proxy card doesnt give my oponent any unfair advantage, unless I think I should have more options because I simply spent more on the game - but it changes into pay to win. I would never demand that someone will buy 3 or 4 TIE Defenders just to be able to equip A-Wings swarm with Predator EPT. All that matters for me is player skill, not his wealth.

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