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Arowmund

Loss of local support

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I think you misunderstand what Lyraeus is saying; this is not unique to Armada, but is completely normal for this style of game

Is it though? 'Naval' wargames in my experience have no cards like this. Dystopian wars, BFG, Halo Fleet Battles, Man 'o War, etc have no card system like this.

And yes, I'm 100% aware that FFG would be doing themselves out of cash by not making the cards mandatory, but that's not a good enough reason for me to be happy with their decision. I don't like it.

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I think you misunderstand what Lyraeus is saying; this is not unique to Armada, but is completely normal for this style of game

Is it though? 'Naval' wargames in my experience have no cards like this. Dystopian wars, BFG, Halo Fleet Battles, Man 'o War, etc have no card system like this.

And yes, I'm 100% aware that FFG would be doing themselves out of cash by not making the cards mandatory, but that's not a good enough reason for me to be happy with their decision. I don't like it.

 

 

I don't really know what you expect to be done about it. As you've said, this doesn't affect your casual play, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect players to have all the cards they're using in a tournament; as Lyraeus says, it allows your opponent and judges to see at a glance what each ship has, what it's used etc. It's not purely profit driven, it's part of the gameplay.

 

So you have a couple of choices: stick to the cards you actually own; keep playing casually; give up playing the game altogether; or (and this is the easiest route) borrow the cards you want to use. At the tournament I went to on Saturday, there were players who had three or four copies of each ship, there's no way they're using all their upgrades. I highly doubt you wouldn't be able to get copies of what you need for a tournament every few months, and just keep using digital copies for your casual games.

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I don't really know what you expect to be done about it.

I don't expect anything done about it, just venting.

So you have a couple of choices: stick to the cards you actually own; keep playing casually; give up playing the game altogether; or (and this is the easiest route) borrow the cards you want to use. At the tournament I went to on Saturday, there were players who had three or four copies of each ship, there's no way they're using all their upgrades. I highly doubt you wouldn't be able to get copies of what you need for a tournament every few months, and just keep using digital copies for your casual games.

I have no intention of supporting a business model that I dislike, and so will continue to play casually only. Besides, I prefer to play at 500-600 points or more.

And please, lets not paint FFG as the protectors of easy play by requiring the cards on the table. Plenty of games, and even plenty of Armada players do just fine without needing them there to remind them. They do it for the money, end of story.

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Is FFG truly set to lose money by selling card packs? Cards are far cheaper to produce than the ships so they give higher profit margins.

I buy ships when I want ships; I'm going to eBay for extra cards. That's money FFG is now missing out on.

Edited by Arttemis

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Is FFG truly set to lose money by selling card packs? Cards are far cheaper to produce than the ships so they give higher profit margins.

I buy ships when I want ships; I'm going to eBay for extra cards. That's money FFG is now missing out on.

Someone still bought that card from FFG before they sold it on eBay.

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I liked warhammer 40k rules that any additional items were represented on the model. So not only did you have to get hold of the correct blister pack, but you also needed multiple models of the same unit altered to reflect the combination of items on the unit.

FFG simplified this massively....

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the card thing really gets me.  I love the game, i really like FFG and there other games.  I stopped playing x-wing because of how the card system works.

 

Now its oh I want flight controllers and xi-7s on 2 ships?   ebay.... I want APTs but dont play rebels.... ebay.... 

 

Ive dropped a lot on extra upgrade cards on ebay, which isn't regulated.  Go look at TRCs, $13 for 1 card.  you may as well just buy the ship at that point.

 

The cards really do hamper what I play because at some point I will get sick of these $4-$10 purchases for 1 card.  This isnt Magic the Gathering yet, armada and x-wing seems to have a secondary market like it.

 

I really wish they would increase the count of non-unique cards to 3-4 per pack, raise the prices on the ships if you must.  

 

Oh its wave 3, and this card has turbolasers.  Well right now 4 ships have turblolasers including this one so lets put 4 copies of the new turbo laser in there.

 

Like a trickle down effect for upgrades.

 

As someone who tries to promote the community and get people to tournaments, i often hear "i can't, i dont have all the upgrades i would want and I do not want to go buy singles".  I can't argue that logic.  

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For a game that's already cost prohibitive, I would imagine they would want to make the game more accessible.  

 

The support for this game is absolutely dead in my area, I haven't even gotten to play a game with my star destroyers because of how dead it is. I'm not willing to drive as long as it takes to play a game, to play a game. 

 

If I'm going to play, it's looking like vassal is my only option, but I don't need cards, let alone ships to play that.

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It is interesting to see how many people think this game is cost prohibitive.  If you compare this to any other tabletop game OTHER than X-Wing and a few other skirmish games, this game is a bargain, even if you have to buy multiple ships to get your uber OP build.  I have spent a fraction on this than I have 40k or Warmachine.  And I have to paint those to make them not look like garbage.

 

I do think the Core set is a little pricey, but not by much.  I think $75 or so would've been a fair price.

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If you play board games, this game is expensive. If you play miniature games, this game is affordable. Being in the middle on paper seems like a great idea, but maybe in reality it just means that it isolates itself from both of the player bases it is trying to court. Too expensive and complex for one group, and not enough so for the other. Maybe Armada is an example of where compromise has resulted in a middle ground where there are going to be those people who just aren't happy no matter what?

 

Of course there are also those like myself that find the compromise perfect. I don't have the time or money in my life right now to play 40k. But I also crave something I can invest in deeper than the average board game. Armada fits the bill perfectly.

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It is interesting to see how many people think this game is cost prohibitive.  If you compare this to any other tabletop game OTHER than X-Wing and a few other skirmish games, this game is a bargain, even if you have to buy multiple ships to get your uber OP build.  I have spent a fraction on this than I have 40k or Warmachine.  And I have to paint those to make them not look like garbage.

 

I do think the Core set is a little pricey, but not by much.  I think $75 or so would've been a fair price.

 

A huge factor is also additional costs to make it nice...

 

Infinity, for example - the cost of a Force is fairly cheap as far as things go...

 

But Tokens.  Range Rulers.  And Goddess Above, the Terrain....  You either have to be very skilled, very rich, or be willing to play without the cinematic feel, as your soldiers dodge around books and flowerpots...

 

It adds up.

 

Armada as a box contains all you need to play a basic game.

 

Its not all you want for sure...  

 

But outside of Ship expansions, there is very little ancillary cost.

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This game is nothing cost wise compared to modestly competitive Magic. And by modestly competitive I mean just playing in the Friday Night Magic local tourneys with eight to ten guys and performing with a .500 win percentage level of consistency. Forget trying to compete in something big that isn't sealed. $300 dollars is barely enough for a tier-2 standard deck even now that the "Fetchlands" i.e. $20 a piece and you probably need eight minimum (out of sixty cards) have rotated out.

 

"There's a good point, other Frimmel. Nothing rotates out of Armada every eighteen months."

 

This stuff is cheap. 

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Is FFG truly set to lose money by selling card packs? Cards are far cheaper to produce than the ships so they give higher profit margins.

I buy ships when I want ships; I'm going to eBay for extra cards. That's money FFG is now missing out on.

Actually, yes. They would have to create the card packs, they would have to package them, ship them, sell and Markey them and it would cut into their sales of people's extra ships. This means that people like me who buy 5 MC30's or 6 Nebulon-B's don't do that anymore and so maybe we don't test those style of builds out (6 Nebulon-B's are so much fun btw!!!). It is also more space for retailers and the X-Wing side is crowded enough as is. Oh and how does one determine what's new the pack? They can just throw 20 cards into a pack so each wavy would be a different size of pack or different number of packs.

It is a complex situation.

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This game is nothing cost wise compared to modestly competitive Magic. And by modestly competitive I mean just playing in the Friday Night Magic local tourneys with eight to ten guys and performing with a .500 win percentage level of consistency. Forget trying to compete in something big that isn't sealed. $300 dollars is barely enough for a tier-2 standard deck even now that the "Fetchlands" i.e. $20 a piece and you probably need eight minimum (out of sixty cards) have rotated out.

 

"There's a good point, other Frimmel. Nothing rotates out of Armada every eighteen months."

 

This stuff is cheap.

X-Wing and Armada are cheaper than 40k at a competitive scene. You always spend less.

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It is interesting to see how many people think this game is cost prohibitive.  If you compare this to any other tabletop game OTHER than X-Wing and a few other skirmish games, this game is a bargain, even if you have to buy multiple ships to get your uber OP build.  I have spent a fraction on this than I have 40k or Warmachine.  And I have to paint those to make them not look like garbage.

 

I do think the Core set is a little pricey, but not by much.  I think $75 or so would've been a fair price.

 

heres my counter:

 

If you were around when armada came out there were a lot of posts about how long the game takes.  The realization i came too is that FFGs rabid community is board gamers.  They are not miniature gamers.

 

Armada is simply one of FFGs ways to enter the Miniature Gaming arena.  X-wing was there first foray.  As far as miniature games go Armada is middle of the pack.  It is not as expensive as being tournament ready as 40k/Warmachine is, but its also not as cheap as being tournament ready for as Guildball/infinity is.  

 

Miniature gaming is in a weird spot where skirmish games like infinity and guildball are all the rage.  Partly due to cost.  Many people are abandoning the epic massive scale battles for games they can play 2-3 times in the same window it takes to play a game of 40k.

 

I wager the majority of people who bought into armada were not previous miniature gamers as much as they were previous board gamers.  I would also assume a good size portion of armada players, had x-wing as their first miniature game experience. 

 

The real funny part is if you look at a game like 40k or WM i could tell you it will cost you $2000 and you may be upset at that.  But generally speaking you can get 5 years out of those models before major revision changes hit.  thats $400 a year.  I know plenty of X-Wing players who say 40k is too expensive but drop more than $400 a year on it.  

 

There is also more competition.  When a game like WM came out, the only competition was really Games Workshop or Historicals.  Now you have a new miniatures game being kicks started every 6 months.  You have people leaving the main production companies and making their own games.  There are tons of options for miniature games at this point which leads to smaller communities naturally.

 

Armada is a hobby and a game, hobbies and games are expensive.  

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I'm speaking as someone for whom this game is the only one they play, and to me the price seems reasonably high but not extreme. Sure, it's not going to attract someone perusing the board game section, but for someone who's semi-serious it's not offputting Plus it's far less intimidating to buy into than 40K; I've considered it, but was overwhelmed by the choice, the fact that the models are unpainted and the price. I was sold on Armada, because a) it's a franchise I know and love, b) right now there aren't that many ships to collect, and c) it was expensive, but I've had far more expensive hobbies in the past.

 

I think we need to get over the price thing. We're all playing it, so it must be worth it.

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While the 'loss of local support' - to the degree that it is a systemic thing, and not just a localized phenomenon - is FFG's marketing fault is really neither here nor there. They're not going to take marketing advice from us forum dwellers, and I'm quite confident they have a decent idea of what they're doing.

 

Maybe demand for Armada products in B&M stores will pick up once they constrain the ability of online retailers to offer the same product at 20-25% discount. Maybe then that 'local support' will return.

 

(Queue online retailer vs. B&M flame war)

 

But in the meantime, building local community is what gives helps bring up that demand. Organizing a community to play tournaments, host leagues, and teaching new-comers to play is up to all of us if we want this game to thrive, and if we want to have a larger pool of opponents to crush play with.

Edited by Mikael Hasselstein

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If you were around when armada came out there were a lot of posts about how long the game takes.  The realization i came too is that FFGs rabid community is board gamers.  They are not miniature gamers.

 

Armada is simply one of FFGs ways to enter the Miniature Gaming arena.  X-wing was there first foray.  As far as miniature games go Armada is middle of the pack.  It is not as expensive as being tournament ready as 40k/Warmachine is, but its also not as cheap as being tournament ready for as Guildball/infinity is.  

 

Miniature gaming is in a weird spot where skirmish games like infinity and guildball are all the rage.  Partly due to cost.  Many people are abandoning the epic massive scale battles for games they can play 2-3 times in the same window it takes to play a game of 40k.

 

I wager the majority of people who bought into armada were not previous miniature gamers as much as they were previous board gamers.  I would also assume a good size portion of armada players, had x-wing as their first miniature game experience.

I agree 100%.

The community is just so different to a wargaming community. The vibe and the way people talk on the forums is so different to like, Lead Adventure or Dakka or B&C or the Mantic forums. And I think people who came to Armada from X Wing or other boardgames probably don't see it as clearly as the rest of us, but there's a real clash of cultures here.

But in the meantime, building local community is what gives helps bring up that demand. Organizing a community to play tournaments, host leagues, and teaching new-comers to play is up to all of us if we want this game to thrive, and if we want to have a larger pool of opponents to crush play with.

At the same time I think it's important not to fall into the FFG trap of thinking that tournaments, leagues and stores are the only places/ways we can play the game.

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If you were around when armada came out there were a lot of posts about how long the game takes.  The realization i came too is that FFGs rabid community is board gamers.  They are not miniature gamers.

 

Armada is simply one of FFGs ways to enter the Miniature Gaming arena.  X-wing was there first foray.  As far as miniature games go Armada is middle of the pack.  It is not as expensive as being tournament ready as 40k/Warmachine is, but its also not as cheap as being tournament ready for as Guildball/infinity is.  

 

Miniature gaming is in a weird spot where skirmish games like infinity and guildball are all the rage.  Partly due to cost.  Many people are abandoning the epic massive scale battles for games they can play 2-3 times in the same window it takes to play a game of 40k.

 

I wager the majority of people who bought into armada were not previous miniature gamers as much as they were previous board gamers.  I would also assume a good size portion of armada players, had x-wing as their first miniature game experience.

I agree 100%.

The community is just so different to a wargaming community. The vibe and the way people talk on the forums is so different to like, Lead Adventure or Dakka or B&C or the Mantic forums. And I think people who came to Armada from X Wing or other boardgames probably don't see it as clearly as the rest of us, but there's a real clash of cultures here.

But in the meantime, building local community is what gives helps bring up that demand. Organizing a community to play tournaments, host leagues, and teaching new-comers to play is up to all of us if we want this game to thrive, and if we want to have a larger pool of opponents to crush play with.

At the same time I think it's important not to fall into the FFG trap of thinking that tournaments, leagues and stores are the only places/ways we can play the game.

 

 

honestly, Armada is a godsend for me. I just got into miniatures, but I don't have the time nor the patience or the skills to assemble and paint everything 1 by 1. Plus, the miniatures game i was interested in (WH 40k) is very expensive.

 

Armada is actually a perfect middle ground. No need to paint, no need to put thousands of dollars. IMO FFG should advertise Armada as a cheaper option for newcomers who still want a complete experience that other pricier games give.

Edited by Sybreed

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But in the meantime, building local community is what gives helps bring up that demand. Organizing a community to play tournaments, host leagues, and teaching new-comers to play is up to all of us if we want this game to thrive, and if we want to have a larger pool of opponents to crush play with.

At the same time I think it's important not to fall into the FFG trap of thinking that tournaments, leagues and stores are the only places/ways we can play the game.

 

You're right, it isn't.

 

But this thread is about 'local support'. Part of that local support is about carrying product, but it's also about facilitating organized play. Having events going on in stores - such as tournaments and leagues - is a clear sign to the store that the game is worth supporting, and that they have the chance to create a loyal customer base.

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But this thread is about 'local support'. Part of that local support is about carrying product, but it's also about facilitating organized play. Having events going on in stores - such as tournaments and leagues - is a clear sign to the store that the game is worth supporting, and that they have the chance to create a loyal customer base.

To me, local support is just people playing the game. We might be playing in Joe's shed, and buying all our models off the internet and never setting foot in a store.

For instance, in my town we have a store and we all play there, but the store doesn't stock much Armada stuff. We buy it when it's in, but we also buy some stuff on-line.

However, the next town over has no store. Yet still has a thriving gaming community (mostly for 40K, but they also play other games) and they just buy stuff online and play at a local community centre/hall. Despite having only a single tournament a year and no store at all to play at, they have strong local support for their games. Trying to encourage more tournaments and leagues and what-not in a place like that won't encourage more people to play Armada, and I think that's also true of a lot of places that DO have stores. Many people aren't interested in tournaments or playing tournament format games at a store, and if those are the types of games that are promoted (along with the FFG rule of having the cards on the table, and a fleet builder print-out not being good enough) then those players will just play at home with their friends and not play in stores. And not playing in stores, they feel no reason to buy in stores, and so the stores stop stocking Armada and so the game appears dead to the people who frequent the stores.

Not to say trying to arrange tournaments and stuff is a waste of time, there's lots of players who enjoy them, but I think if you really want to bring the Armada players out of the woodwork then you need to promote casual play as well. Like, a bring-and-play day where anyone can bring their stuff, games might be anything from 250 to 600 points (you can arrange them with your opponent when you get there) and fleet-builder print outs are accepted. Get people who may only have a starter box and one or two expansions to the store, make people who don't want to buy all the cards feel welcome, make it a no-pressure non-competitive, casual event and use it to get the home-gamers to meet some of the store-gamers so there can be more cross-pollination between the two groups.

Just an idea, anyway.

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Not to say trying to arrange tournaments and stuff is a waste of time, there's lots of players who enjoy them, but I think if you really want to bring the Armada players out of the woodwork then you need to promote casual play as well. Like, a bring-and-play day where anyone can bring their stuff, games might be anything from 250 to 600 points (you can arrange them with your opponent when you get there) and fleet-builder print outs are accepted. Get people who may only have a starter box and one or two expansions to the store, make people who don't want to buy all the cards feel welcome, make it a no-pressure non-competitive, casual event and use it to get the home-gamers to meet some of the store-gamers so there can be more cross-pollination between the two groups.

Just an idea, anyway.

 

I think this is a very good point about promoting casual play and to a degree applies to all of these games with any sort of a customizable element. I don't think folks mind losing so much as they mind not having had a chance and there is a certain air of "not having a chance" about going into a group or tourney. The new local comic shop/game store is looking at getting X-wing going and there is the usual talk about tourneys and my take was why don't we see if we can just get a regular group of guys here playing in the first place - then we can we worry about leagues and tournaments.

 

But then I've never been one of the "game not worth the candle" sorts. 

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Hi

I'm also looking for a good place in Southeastern Florida to play. Any recommendations?

Have you tried searching for local miniature or open gaming meet ups? It took some looking for me, but I eventually found enough groups that I could have a guaranteed game of Armada at least 2-3 nights a week without much of a drive. I have a friend who does a monthly game meetup, but that is Northwestern Florida, so might be a bit of a drive. Head to your local game store and ask the guy behind the counter if he knows of any local meetups or gaming groups you could glom onto if the internet doesn't seem promising.

 

As has been stated As Nauseum in this thread, local support for the game is there, but in many areas it exists outside the official competitive tournament landscape which can make it a little bit more trying to find. However, once you find a gaming group that plays outside this official setting, the game and the community can be richly rewarding.

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The two FLGSs that I frequent have massive X-Wing followings, with about 5-10% of them active in Armada and another 10-15% interested but not invested.

I'm hoping to get a couple people down for a few games and hopefully draw more in.

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