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The Real Problem with PS9 Poe Dameron....

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Poe's not Corellian, nor is he a Sith Lord.

 

What he is is the person who did this:

 

Vader in SWR is the only thing that comes close.

 

The thing about this is that it is nothing special. PS 8 fits that bill. He does not even especially good in that scene, he just aligns for a punch of free shot at very low speeds. And with low speeds I mean speeds that you are using to drive to the mall. I dare you, watch it again and ignore that fact that he kills like 13 bad guys in 22 seconds and check out what it took him to do this, Everything aligned just fine in front of thim at low speeds, only minor piloting needed and that kind of piloting is trivial on a X-Wing or about any other star wars fighter as they happily ignore aerodynamics as they use repulsor engines and can basically do all those maneuvers even at zero speed. 

 

Based on that scene he ps6 and gains an extra dice for attacks as his gunnery skills are quite good (he never misses in the scene). 

 

 

 

I wonder what could be said about a guy who made 36-0 in FW190A4 in one MMOgame...

 

 

No idea, but I can tell you that killed Kilrathi faster than Peo in that clipp, well and players as well in Starlancer, sometimes as fast as they respawn ;-)

Getting kills on sitting ducks is trivial, fighting an ace might take a lot of time, because those are not just sitting there and presenting themselves to get shot. 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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Poe's not Corellian, nor is he a Sith Lord.

 

What he is is the person who did this:

 

Vader in SWR is the only thing that comes close.

 

The thing about this is that it is nothing special. PS 8 fits that bill. He does not even especially good in that scene, he just aligns for a punch of free shot at very low speeds. And with low speeds I mean speeds that you are using to drive to the mall. I dare you, watch it again and ignore that fact that he kills like 13 bad guys in 22 seconds and check out what it took him to do this, Everything aligned just fine in front of thim at low speeds, only minor piloting needed and that kind of piloting is trivial on a X-Wing or about any other star wars fighter as they happily ignore aerodynamics as they use repulsor engines and can basically do all those maneuvers even at zero speed. 

 

Based on that scene he ps6 and gains an extra dice for attacks as his gunnery skills are quite good (he never misses in the scene). 

 

Well.. maybe but I think he still had to pull a few maneuvers:

At tie 5 - he has to snap roll to a avoid a blast then gets a shot.

pulls an immelman loop to meet his target at the perfect angle to take out tie 7.

Snap-right to take out tie 8.

Takes out tie 9 head on, and kills it before it shoots.

I mean sure, there is a clusterf** of ties in the air so your flight path is going to run into many ties no matter what but it's still not going to be easy to immediately adjust course fast enough to take them out. There was just as much enemies to shoot at Endor and we didn't see anyone pull this off in ROTJ.

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Poe's not Corellian, nor is he a Sith Lord.

 

What he is is the person who did this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgB2Wtvkpso

 

Vader in SWR is the only thing that comes close.

 

The thing about this is that it is nothing special. PS 8 fits that bill. He does not even especially good in that scene, he just aligns for a punch of free shot at very low speeds. And with low speeds I mean speeds that you are using to drive to the mall. I dare you, watch it again and ignore that fact that he kills like 13 bad guys in 22 seconds and check out what it took him to do this, Everything aligned just fine in front of thim at low speeds, only minor piloting needed and that kind of piloting is trivial on a X-Wing or about any other star wars fighter as they happily ignore aerodynamics as they use repulsor engines and can basically do all those maneuvers even at zero speed. 

 

Based on that scene he ps6 and gains an extra dice for attacks as his gunnery skills are quite good (he never misses in the scene).

Well.. maybe but I think he still had to pull a few maneuvers:

At tie 5 - he has to snap roll to a avoid a blast then gets a shot.

pulls an immelman loop to meet his target at the perfect angle to take out tie 7.

Snap-right to take out tie 8.

Takes out tie 9 head on, and kills it before it shoots.

I mean sure, there is a clusterf** of ties in the air so your flight path is going to run into many ties no matter what but it's still not going to be easy to immediately adjust course fast enough to take them out. There was just as much enemies to shoot at Endor and we didn't see anyone pull this off in ROTJ.

Plus he flies through an X-wing sized hole to destroy Starkiller base.

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Wow. I can't believe this silly troll thread I started made 4 pages so quickly. 

 

I also think I underestimated the number of people that would read "Disney continues to destroy the sanctity of this once-great game" as a 100% serious thing that a person would believe in regard to (at least) this specific topic.

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Wow. I can't believe this silly troll thread I started made 4 pages so quickly. 

 

I also think I underestimated the number of people that would read "Disney continues to destroy the sanctity of this once-great game" as a 100% serious thing that a person would believe in regard to (at least) this specific topic.

Never underestimate the fandom, or nerdom in general.

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At tie 5 - he has to snap roll to a avoid a blast then gets a shot.

pulls an immelman loop to meet his target at the perfect angle to take out tie 7.

Snap-right to take out tie 8.

Takes out tie 9 head on, and kills it before it shoots.

I mean sure, there is a clusterf** of ties in the air so your flight path is going to run into many ties no matter what but it's still not going to be easy to immediately adjust course fast enough to take them out. There was just as much enemies to shoot at Endor and we didn't see anyone pull this off in ROTJ.

At that speed it is trivial, and endor there were going about 10 times as fast. Endor was roughly WW2 speeds, while was at speeds of a gang drive by. ;-)

And that immelman loop becomes a lot less impressive if your ship does not care about uplift of your wings, stall, gravity in general because your engine technology is anti-gravity based instead of airflow. A lot less stuff to menage. In an actually airplane this would have been quite impressive, especially the plane performance as they were flying so slow without stalling. ;-)

Edit: And before anyone is getting this wrong, I have no problem with Poe PS9, he never ever was challenged enough to show us anything that would justify PS 9 in the whole movie, meaning he did just as well as PS 7,8 or 9 should have done, though he shows exceptional precision with the gun, which totally fits his ability btw. And we can not count his bad performance in the TIE either, flying the ship for the first time, after all that torture, etc not his regular self and he still managed to land. (If you still can move, it wsa a landing)

Edited by SEApocalypse

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Well Poe's parents were stationed on Yavin, but are they Yavish?

Yavish? Maybe Yavinese? Yavinian? Yavinesian?

Technically it's Yavin IV, so may Yavinfourvish? Yavinfourian?

 

I'm going to wonder about this for hours, or until something shiny distracts me.

 

 

I've never understood the propensity for just numbering up planets in sci-fi stuff...

 

I mean, we don't tell folks we live on Sol III do we?

 

it was the 4th moon orbitting the planet Yavin.. and it was so out of the way... no one really cared about giving the moons names

 

 

With the enormous number of planets and moons that exist, I would only expect the ones in systems that have a native population (or early colonization) would have received actual names.

We do the same thing with celestial bodies, giving them apha-numeric designations to identify them as opposed to actual names.  

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At tie 5 - he has to snap roll to a avoid a blast then gets a shot.

pulls an immelman loop to meet his target at the perfect angle to take out tie 7.

Snap-right to take out tie 8.

Takes out tie 9 head on, and kills it before it shoots.

I mean sure, there is a clusterf** of ties in the air so your flight path is going to run into many ties no matter what but it's still not going to be easy to immediately adjust course fast enough to take them out. There was just as much enemies to shoot at Endor and we didn't see anyone pull this off in ROTJ.

At that speed it is trivial, and endor there were going about 10 times as fast. Endor was roughly WW2 speeds, while was at speeds of a gang drive by. ;-)

And that immelman loop becomes a lot less impressive if your ship does not care about uplift of your wings, stall, gravity in general because your engine technology is anti-gravity based instead of airflow. A lot less stuff to menage. In an actually airplane this would have been quite impressive, especially the plane performance as they were flying so slow without stalling. ;-)

Edit: And before anyone is getting this wrong, I have no problem with Poe PS9, he never ever was challenged enough to show us anything that would justify PS 9 in the whole movie, meaning he did just as well as PS 7,8 or 9 should have done, though he shows exceptional precision with the gun, which totally fits his ability btw. And we can not count his bad performance in the TIE either, flying the ship for the first time, after all that torture, etc not his regular self and he still managed to land. (If you still can move, it wsa a landing)

 

I am so confused, first of all WW2 speeds arent fast by our real life standards, secondly in a dogfight going slower is usually better as it makes it easier to get behind your opponent.

Speed is only helpful if you have altitude for Booming and Zooming .. but this is a straight up turn and burn dogfight, you need to get as much decelleration as possible to increase your turning power.

Thirdly declaring an immelman as "unimpressive" because Star Wars fantasy magic makes small ships impervious to Aerodynamics is shortsighted .. you can use that logic to say that ALL dogfighting has nothing to do with the pilot because the ships allow you to do anything. He still timed his loop perfectly to intercept a diving Tie/FO out of nowhere .. THATS not easy.

Edited by Tenka

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We also only saw about 5 minutes of Endor, sooo, the complaint about not seeing that at Endor is completely unfounded. I'm perfectly fine with him being PS 8 or 9, but we never see anything to prove he's better than any other pilot we've ever seen.

We only saw about 5 minutes of battle with X-Wings on Takodana as well .. if someone at Endor was capable of it, it stands to reason that it would be in the movie.

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We also only saw about 5 minutes of Endor, sooo, the complaint about not seeing that at Endor is completely unfounded. I'm perfectly fine with him being PS 8 or 9, but we never see anything to prove he's better than any other pilot we've ever seen.

We only saw about 5 minutes of battle with X-Wings on Takodana as well .. if someone at Endor was capable of it, it stands to reason that it would be in the movie.

Except it was eaiser to do in 2016 with CGI, as opposed to the 80s with models.

Also it goes towards today's audience and the director- who both want lots of flashy things on the screen rather than good well thought out tactical battles that show both sides are both a threatening force. Watch some of JJ's Star Trek's battles compared to the ones of orignal movies (specifically Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country.).....though this reasoning has to do with reality rather than our lore.

also know that i am fine with Poe having 2 different PS numbers...it opens up some different list choices (or at least some different ones with his support/wingmen.

Edited by knavelead

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We also only saw about 5 minutes of Endor, sooo, the complaint about not seeing that at Endor is completely unfounded. I'm perfectly fine with him being PS 8 or 9, but we never see anything to prove he's better than any other pilot we've ever seen.

We only saw about 5 minutes of battle with X-Wings on Takodana as well .. if someone at Endor was capable of it, it stands to reason that it would be in the movie.

Except it was eaiser to do in 2016 with CGI, as opposed to the 80s with models.

Also it goes towards today's audience and the director- who both want lots of flashy things on the screen rather than good well thought out tactical battles that show both sides are both a threatening force. Watch some of JJ's Star Trek's battles compared to the ones of orignal movies (specifically Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country.).....though this reasoning has to do with reality rather than our lore.

 

Except for that yes.. but all that means is that they designed around their limitations. They didn't make a pilot that good because they couldn't sufficiently represent it on screen.

We are talking about a completely fictional universe, the only thing we have to represent it is what we are given in the movies. Based on that and that alone .. its pretty undeniable that Poe is represented as a superior pilot. The only problem is how far you can argue your "fluff" to make up the difference. I believe that Poe is as good as if not better than Han and Wedge in piloting ability.

Edited by Tenka

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At tie 5 - he has to snap roll to a avoid a blast then gets a shot.

pulls an immelman loop to meet his target at the perfect angle to take out tie 7.

Snap-right to take out tie 8.

Takes out tie 9 head on, and kills it before it shoots.

I mean sure, there is a clusterf** of ties in the air so your flight path is going to run into many ties no matter what but it's still not going to be easy to immediately adjust course fast enough to take them out. There was just as much enemies to shoot at Endor and we didn't see anyone pull this off in ROTJ.

At that speed it is trivial, and endor there were going about 10 times as fast. Endor was roughly WW2 speeds, while was at speeds of a gang drive by. ;-)

And that immelman loop becomes a lot less impressive if your ship does not care about uplift of your wings, stall, gravity in general because your engine technology is anti-gravity based instead of airflow. A lot less stuff to menage. In an actually airplane this would have been quite impressive, especially the plane performance as they were flying so slow without stalling. ;-)

Edit: And before anyone is getting this wrong, I have no problem with Poe PS9, he never ever was challenged enough to show us anything that would justify PS 9 in the whole movie, meaning he did just as well as PS 7,8 or 9 should have done, though he shows exceptional precision with the gun, which totally fits his ability btw. And we can not count his bad performance in the TIE either, flying the ship for the first time, after all that torture, etc not his regular self and he still managed to land. (If you still can move, it wsa a landing)

 

I am so confused, first of all WW2 speeds arent fast by our real life standards, secondly in a dogfight going slower is usually better as it makes it easier to get behind your opponent.

Speed is only helpful if you have altitude for Booming and Zooming .. but this is a straight up turn and burn dogfight, you need to get as much decelleration as possible to increase your turning power.

Thirdly declaring an immelman as "unimpressive" because Star Wars fantasy magic makes small ships impervious to Aerodynamics is shortsighted .. you can use that logic to say that ALL dogfighting has nothing to do with the pilot because the ships allow you to do anything. He still timed his loop perfectly to intercept a diving Tie/FO out of nowhere .. THATS not easy.

 

 

No, that is trivial at those speeds, which is the whole reason why you do not go that slow in a target rich environment, because if you go slow it becomes trivial for people to get behind you easily and it becomes as well trivial to hit. Increase the speed to WW2 levels, around 100m/s to 300m/s and those moves become a little harder if you still want to get as close as Poe did get. But at 10m/s to 30m/s? You become a sitting duck, even when you for sure have an easy time shooting those other sitting ducks. It is really a dangerous game to play losing to much velocity. 

 

And again, you are right that in a one on one situation you can decrease the speed a lot, but if you do so you can as well  start increase swaying speeds and basically end in something that resembles helicopters more than air planes. I doubt we will see this ever in a disney dogfight tough, even when we have seen in Rebels that fighters can do this just fine. Anyway, if you get that slow, everything around you get on your tail, easily, or just turn in your general direction and hit you without trouble, as you are a static, easy to hit target. 

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We also only saw about 5 minutes of Endor, sooo, the complaint about not seeing that at Endor is completely unfounded. I'm perfectly fine with him being PS 8 or 9, but we never see anything to prove he's better than any other pilot we've ever seen.

We only saw about 5 minutes of battle with X-Wings on Takodana as well .. if someone at Endor was capable of it, it stands to reason that it would be in the movie.

Except it was eaiser to do in 2016 with CGI, as opposed to the 80s with models.

Also it goes towards today's audience and the director- who both want lots of flashy things on the screen rather than good well thought out tactical battles that show both sides are both a threatening force. Watch some of JJ's Star Trek's battles compared to the ones of orignal movies (specifically Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country.).....though this reasoning has to do with reality rather than our lore.

 

Except for that yes.. but all that means is that they designed around their limitations. They didn't make a pilot that good because they couldn't sufficiently represent it on screen.

We are talking about a completely fictional universe, the only thing we have to represent it is what we are given in the movies. Based on that and that alone .. its pretty undeniable that Poe is represented as a superior pilot. The only problem is how far you can argue your "fluff" to make up the difference. I believe that Poe is as good as if not better than Han and Wedge in piloting ability.

 

 

 

What you mean with no pilot that good? We have Arvel Crynyd, Green Leader, taking out the Executor and that is PS6 and a heck more impressive than killing an academy pilot or 10, who all fly like they are not aware that an air battle is taking place.

 

Technical we have seen Rey fly better than Poe in the movies. :P

Edited by SEApocalypse

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We also only saw about 5 minutes of Endor, sooo, the complaint about not seeing that at Endor is completely unfounded. I'm perfectly fine with him being PS 8 or 9, but we never see anything to prove he's better than any other pilot we've ever seen.

We only saw about 5 minutes of battle with X-Wings on Takodana as well .. if someone at Endor was capable of it, it stands to reason that it would be in the movie.

Except that Endor was a much larger battle (Takodana wasn't even a battle, it was a small skirmish). We only saw the parts that were necessary to see on screen (like Crynyd crashing into the Executor, and the Death Star run). Also, since the battle was so huge, targets were more spread out. There probably weren't 10 TIE fighters in that close proximity to shoot down. I've seen nothing to say Poe is a better pilot then Vader or Wedge.

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Let's put it this way; he is explicitely described as 'the best pilot in the resistance'. Therefore, if you're going to give any Resistance pilot PS9, it should be Poe.

 

Whether you should is a more open question, but since Scum pilots with no specific claim to greatness have been made PS9, I think it's unlikely that you wouldn't make a pilot in the shiny new (sub)faction PS9. As noted, Resistance/Rebel is currently a joint thing, but some of us prefer not to mix eras. I'll be interested to see what they do (if anything) for the First Order.

 

Of course, technically we've already got our PS-ludicrous pilot with Epsilon Ace.

 

 

And yes, it's nice because it encourages you to take something other than VI/R5-P9. Black One pairs so **** well with BB-8 (anyone would think it was planned that way!) which seems designed to encourage you to take Poe with PTL/BB8/Black One and use the amazing ability to fly stunts you get from a free boost/barrel roll before moving.

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