Had a dispute with a friend regarding rolling/re-rolling rules when you have rolled too few dice.

[haritos 238]

I was playing a game with a friend where ship A and B where facing each other at range 3.

His ship A attacked my ship B, and I rolled my defence dice, forgetting to add 1 due to range. He had no focus, I did, and spent it, still i got hit for 1 damage.

Right after I attack with ship B his ship A at range 3. While rolling his defense dice, he states that he adds 1 due to range 3. At that point I go "oh **** I forgot mine, can i roll it now?".

Our question is, what would happen in a tournament environment. Assuming of course you have both the players consent (he could easily just say "sorry, too late"), how would be resolve the dice rolling? Do i just roll the one extra die I forgot, do i roll all my defensive dice, or do we both reroll all dice?

I found this entry here: http://xwing-miniatures.wikia.com/wiki/Dice , regarding rerolling, but my friend believes that this is a case only during your rolling defensive dice phase, and you cant apply this rule later in the turn if you forgot it. I personally think it would still make sense to do it this way and let me roll an additional die, rather than both of us rerolling everything.

Is there a consensus on how these situations are resolved?

[McLaine 58]

It's in the rules somewhere.

If you mistakenly roll too many dice, you have to do a complete new roll with the correct number of dice.

If you mistakenly roll too few dice, you simply roll enough extra dice to bring it to the correct number.

[Edit] FAQ pg 5: Rolling dice.

 

Edited May 19, 2016 by McLaine

[VanorDM 11,599]

Is there a consensus on how these situations are resolved?

It would depend on.

At that point you mentioned in your post, I think you could fairly roll a single evade die and treat it as if it were part of the original roll. So since you had a focus token a <focus> result could be converted into an <evade> result and you'd not take the damage.

But it I think you'd really need the other person's approval at that point, and in some cases even with it, you couldn't fairly restore the correct game state.

For example if the ship was destroyed and you took it off the table, it would be hard to put it back where it was before.

[dotswarlock 2,392]

Adding attack or defensive dice in relation to range are mandatory effects and in that regard, both players are responsible for maintaining the game's integrity (it's not a missed opportunity; it's not a "you may" roll one addtional defensive die).

 

In the situation that you described, the game did not seem to have moved past the point of fixing the mistake (which would mean rolling an evade dice and applying the focus effect to it), so if I had been your opponent, I would have let you do it without any problem.

 

Worst case scenario, you call a TO over and ask them to make the call.  They are there just for that after all

[VanorDM 11,599]

so if I had been your opponent, I would have let you do it without any problem.

I'm the same. But the question in this case, because I agree you could effectively rewind the game state to fix it, without causing a problem... But I'm not sure that means you can at that point pick up a defensive die, roll it and remove damage if you got an evade.

Or perhaps the issue is simply fairly nuanced and there can't be a simple answer.

If for example the attacker had some way of modifying the defense dice, they may of missed the chance to do it because they made a decision based on situation as it was. I guess there's a lot of variables there and it would really need to be treated on a case by case basis.

[Dr Zoidberg 3,195]

While I'd probably let you have the roll, in a tournament setting, I think your opponent would be within his right to say that was a missed opportunity on your account and you're just going to have to live with it.

[dotswarlock 2,392]

 

so if I had been your opponent, I would have let you do it without any problem.

I'm the same. But the question in this case, because I agree you could effectively rewind the game state to fix it, without causing a problem... But I'm not sure that means you can at that point pick up a defensive die, roll it and remove damage if you got an evade.

Or perhaps the issue is simply fairly nuanced and there can't be a simple answer.

If for example the attacker had some way of modifying the defense dice, they may of missed the chance to do it because they made a decision based on situation as it was. I guess there's a lot of variables there and it would really need to be treated on a case by case basis.

 

 

Agreed.  Most mistakes need to be fixed on a case by case basis at any rate and I think this may be why there is no written rule about it.  When in doubt, call the TO

[Rapture 499]

While I'd probably let you have the roll, in a tournament setting, I think your opponent would be within his right to say that was a missed opportunity on your account and you're just going to have to live with it.

Rolling evade dice, including rolling the correct number, is not an 'opportunity,' it is a requirement.

[VanorDM 11,599]

it is a requirement.

It is, but so is Rebel Captive. At some point you can't go back and fix the mistake. In the OP's case you could quite easily do so, and if I were the TO I'd let him do so.

 

But you would still have to make the other guy aware of what you're doing and why before you do it.  Because there is a very real possibility that there may be something else that is affected by rolling those dice.  It may in fact be too late at that point to fairly fix the mistake.

[McLaine 58]

Even at tournament level, mistakes happen. Most players tend to prefer not to rewind the game, but if it's fairly immediate, might let you have it.

Generally, this sort of thing is sorted out between the players at the table, only bringing a TO in if an agreement cannot be made.

Try to own your mistakes though, rather than expecting to be 'let off'. It really helps make it stick in your mind. If your opponent offers to let you redo, then good for them, but try to avoid asking.

[Rapture 499]

It really helps make it stick in your mind. If your opponent offers to let you redo, then good for them, but try to avoid asking.

Things like this are a mistake of both player. They have to be or it would incentivise players being unclear regarding attacking in order to have their opponent neglect to roll any dice added as the result of range or obstacles. Going back to comply with the rules is not a "redo" and must be done whenever practical. Determining when the game has progressed to the point where going back cannot occur is up to the players and then the TO.

[haritos 238]

Thanks for the replies guys, I saw in some replies that in a tournament evnironment my opponent could of course tell me "sorry man, you can't now". This is of course understandable.

 

My question is, if he DID say yes, how would be resolve it, full reroll or +1 defense dice.

 

Thought I should clarify.

[WWHSD 9,273]

Thanks for the replies guys, I saw in some replies that in a tournament evnironment my opponent could of course tell me "sorry man, you can't now". This is of course understandable.

 

My question is, if he DID say yes, how would be resolve it, full reroll or +1 defense dice.

 

Thought I should clarify.

 

You'd just roll the additional die. Rolling too many makes you reroll everything, rolling too few just has you roll enough to have the right number.

[StevenO 2,996]

Thanks for the replies guys, I saw in some replies that in a tournament evnironment my opponent could of course tell me "sorry man, you can't now". This is of course understandable.

 

My question is, if he DID say yes, how would be resolve it, full reroll or +1 defense dice.

 

Thought I should clarify.

 

Roll +1 die to bring the total up to what it should have been.

 

If you did a full reroll you could end up with a situation where "forgetting" a die wouldn't have mattered one bit anyway.

[Krynn007 2,445]

I didnt read all responses, but something I have to ask

Did your friend notice when you rolled that you didn't roll enough dice, and kept quiet?

If so that would be considered cheating.

There are some things that have to be done.

Things like rebel captive, adding or losing dice etc.

I ask because you said when it was his turn he knew about the extra dice.

Either way in this case, it is something that should be corrected.

Unless your well pass the point.

In this case you should have rolled your extra dice, as it didn't seem to far to interfere.

You didn't remove your ship, and you spent your focus, so if anything you roll a blank, hit stays, anything else you put a shield or dmg card back on top of the dmg deck

He sounds sketchy to me

Edited May 12, 2016 by Krynn007

[emeraldbeacon 1,364]

Here's a question tied to the "rolling too many or too few dice" issue.

 

Say you're playing against someone who has ships that roll a lot of dice (HLC Agressors, for example).  They have a tendency to roll their dice one at a time, until they have a full roll.  I have personal opinions about rolling like that... but this isn't the place to discuss my feelings.

 

There are rules that address rolling too few dice (roll extras to make the difference) ....but what happens if they then go on to (oops!) roll too MANY dice?  Say they attack with HLC, and roll one at a time... blank... focus... blank... then they accidentally drop two dice that come up hit-blank.  The rules state that a too-many-dice attack is rerolled in whole.. and the whole thing begins again, this time probably with a better roll (the same situation could arise with defense dice on a fully-kitted-out Soontir Fel).

 

Do you have the right to ask your opponent to roll their dice all at once?  Is this something that could/should be brought to the TO's attention?  While extremely suspect, it can be completely innocent - where do you draw the line?

[thespaceinvader 17,438]

Here's a question tied to the "rolling too many or too few dice" issue.

 

Say you're playing against someone who has ships that roll a lot of dice (HLC Agressors, for example).  They have a tendency to roll their dice one at a time, until they have a full roll.  I have personal opinions about rolling like that... but this isn't the place to discuss my feelings.

 

There are rules that address rolling too few dice (roll extras to make the difference) ....but what happens if they then go on to (oops!) roll too MANY dice?  Say they attack with HLC, and roll one at a time... blank... focus... blank... then they accidentally drop two dice that come up hit-blank.  The rules state that a too-many-dice attack is rerolled in whole.. and the whole thing begins again, this time probably with a better roll (the same situation could arise with defense dice on a fully-kitted-out Soontir Fel).

 

Do you have the right to ask your opponent to roll their dice all at once?  Is this something that could/should be brought to the TO's attention?  While extremely suspect, it can be completely innocent - where do you draw the line?

Pick up all the dice, roll the right number of dice is how to deal with the situation.  If someone rolls too many dice, that's explcitly what the FAQ/Tourney rules instruct.

 

If they're rolling all their dice one at a time, I'd probably be concerned about them slow-playing (though I've met a few people who just... don't like rolling a lot of dice at once, which I just don't get.  I'd be especially concerned if they're doing it when e.g. spending a TL, because in that instance, you pick the number of dice and reroll all of them, and I'd worry about them picking the dice to reroll based on the results.

 

I'd probably ask them to roll all their dice at once right at the start, politely, and call a TO if I got concerned about anything later on, particularly if it looked like time was becoming an issue.

[Parravon 5,216]

Something I absolutely hate is the "one-at-a-time" die rollers, especially if they appear to be aiming a subsequent die at a poor result. I don't think it's poor etiquette to ask someone to roll the correct number of dice together all at the same time. However, I don't think there's anything within the rules that can back up that request, so it's down to the player as to whether or not they comply with your request.

 

If they are indeed targeting poor results with the intention of knocking the die onto a potentially better result, then you may have a case for complaint under "Unsportmanlike Conduct". Once a die has finished rolling and ended up with a result, any subsequent knock to another result should be simply ignored.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Parravon

[VanorDM 11,599]

and the whole thing begins again, this time probably with a better roll

A new roll has the same odds as any other roll. Now if they rolled truly bad, say all blanks then yeah the odds are in their favor. If the person in question only rolls too many dice "accidentally" when they have really bad rolls, I'd call the TO over because in that case they are clearly cheating.

 

But the rules don't really address the physical steps of rolling the dice so it's a bit of a grey area, but that's why TO's have the discretion they do so they can deal with these kinds of grey areas.

[WWHSD 9,273]

Here's a question tied to the "rolling too many or too few dice" issue.

 

Say you're playing against someone who has ships that roll a lot of dice (HLC Agressors, for example).  They have a tendency to roll their dice one at a time, until they have a full roll.  I have personal opinions about rolling like that... but this isn't the place to discuss my feelings.

 

There are rules that address rolling too few dice (roll extras to make the difference) ....but what happens if they then go on to (oops!) roll too MANY dice?  Say they attack with HLC, and roll one at a time... blank... focus... blank... then they accidentally drop two dice that come up hit-blank.  The rules state that a too-many-dice attack is rerolled in whole.. and the whole thing begins again, this time probably with a better roll (the same situation could arise with defense dice on a fully-kitted-out Soontir Fel).

 

Do you have the right to ask your opponent to roll their dice all at once?  Is this something that could/should be brought to the TO's attention?  While extremely suspect, it can be completely innocent - where do you draw the line?

 

Unlike having too many dice rolled all at once, you know which result came from an extra die when someone is throwing one at a time and can easily exclude it.That is no different than someone that rolled all 4 dice at once seeing the results and then tossing a fifth one to invalidate the results. 

[haritos 238]

I didnt read all responses, but something I have to ask

Did your friend notice when you rolled that you didn't roll enough dice, and kept quiet?

 

 

Well I cant really know that, right? Since I know him and we were playing casually it doesn't really matter but the unfortunate thing is at a tournament if this happens you cant really accuse someone of anything since you can't prove it.

[StevenO 2,996]

Here's a question tied to the "rolling too many or too few dice" issue.

 

Say you're playing against someone who has ships that roll a lot of dice (HLC Agressors, for example).  They have a tendency to roll their dice one at a time, until they have a full roll.  I have personal opinions about rolling like that... but this isn't the place to discuss my feelings.

 

There are rules that address rolling too few dice (roll extras to make the difference) ....but what happens if they then go on to (oops!) roll too MANY dice?  Say they attack with HLC, and roll one at a time... blank... focus... blank... then they accidentally drop two dice that come up hit-blank.  The rules state that a too-many-dice attack is rerolled in whole.. and the whole thing begins again, this time probably with a better roll (the same situation could arise with defense dice on a fully-kitted-out Soontir Fel).

 

Do you have the right to ask your opponent to roll their dice all at once?  Is this something that could/should be brought to the TO's attention?  While extremely suspect, it can be completely innocent - where do you draw the line?

 

One thing about rolling too few dice is that once rolled they are LOCKED in until the modification steps start happening.  If someone rolls one at a time that is a case for stalling but as long they aren't knocking previously rolled dice around then nothing is wrong with it.

 

Now if your "one at a time" roller gets to the end and doesn't like what he's seeing so he accidentally/intentionally throws out an extra die I'd simply tell him to pick them both up and throw one down (or whatever the correct number remaining is) to go with all of those previous rolls which haven't been altered.

 

Now if someone doesn't like then I'm certainly calling a TO on them.  If done consistently there is no difference in outcomes between rolling two few + remaining dice vs. just rerolling enough total dice but there are huge issues if one can simply switch from "too few so reroll more" to "reroll everything" when they start seeing that their too few isn't going to be good enough.  Because it is possible to not have enough dice to roll all needed dice the only way to redo a "too few" rolled is to roll, lock, roll other dice to get enough total dice.

[Krynn007 2,445]

I didnt read all responses, but something I have to ask

Did your friend notice when you rolled that you didn't roll enough dice, and kept quiet?

 

Well I cant really know that, right? Since I know him and we were playing casually it doesn't really matter but the unfortunate thing is at a tournament if this happens you cant really accuse someone of anything since you can't prove it.

I thought I'd ask

Maybe he mentioned something about it during your game

Some people may think they are doing nothing wrong but mandatory effects are just that

Mandatory

Same is said about rebel captive

I've seen people not say anything then mention it later, and I had to tell them if they notice they are required to do it regardless if the player who had rebel captive remembered or not.

They weren't trying to cheat, but technically if you notice and don't say anything that that's kind of what it is

Unlike effects like Howlrunner, where it says you may. There is nothing stopping you from keeping quiet.

Back to your situation, you could ask your friend if he did notice when you rolled fewer dice.

Regardless of his answer you can politely tell him that if in any situation that it does happen he should speak up and correct his opponen, and vice versa

Maybe he thinks this is fine, keeping quiet, but it's not.

Anyway back to your original statement, He should have allowed you to roll your extra dice.

Seeing as you were still in the same round and it doesn't sound like it would have interrupted the game state at all.

I'll use rebel captive as example

You attack my ship.

I forget to remind you of rebel captive

Now we are setting dials, then I notice, I then ask you to put the stress on your ship

In this case you can still set your dial now knowing the ship is stressed.

However if we were already activating ships, then sadly it is kind of late as now that effect can have a dramatic impact on the Game

[SentryBox 9]

This situation came up in our Regional on May 7th (Calgary). It's a slightly different situation because it happened during the very last attack of the game in the final turn after time had been called. One player forgot to roll the extra defence die for range 3 and his ship died, meaning the result of the game switched from being a win for him to a win for his opponent. When they realized, as the TO I told him to roll the extra defence die. In this case he rolled a blank and the result stayed the same, but it could have swung things back to a win for him so it was a crucial decision. In that case, there was no reason not to go back and roll it as it had just happened and the game hadn't advanced too far ahead because it had ended right after the roll.

[Parravon 5,216]

This situation came up in our Regional on May 7th (Calgary). It's a slightly different situation because it happened during the very last attack of the game in the final turn after time had been called. One player forgot to roll the extra defence die for range 3 and his ship died, meaning the result of the game switched from being a win for him to a win for his opponent. When they realized, as the TO I told him to roll the extra defence die. In this case he rolled a blank and the result stayed the same, but it could have swung things back to a win for him so it was a crucial decision. In that case, there was no reason not to go back and roll it as it had just happened and the game hadn't advanced too far ahead because it had ended right after the roll.

I like it when games come down to a single hull point left and it could go either way. It seems you did the fair thing there. Good call.