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nickv2002

Skirmish Focused Discussion of Rebel Heroes for Bespin Gambit

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In loving their costs. Someone pointed out davith costs the same as a six point trooper deployment and can almost do as many attacks. So his opportunity cost has a lot more potential to make up for the single figure drawbacks people have pointed out.

With them both being spies (and lando being a smuggler and leia a spy) I finally feel like running two slippery targets is worth it in a command deck. Especially to use them for davith to run through enemies and do damage. He's like a pocket sized bantha ;) already trying to figure out as many ways as possible to get him extra movement and out of turn movement.

Vanish is awesome! And I really like false orders and its ability to mess with your opponents placement. Single purpose could be really fun with that :)

Murne's command card allows him to do false orders to any non-unique character except elite royal guards. And it only costs one point. I like that vanish isn't three points too. Having some more uniques who's command cards don't automatically cost three helps a lot to make their characters more viable.

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Murne

 

She (or He?) has a reasonable attack when surging for 2 damage.

 

False Orders is certainly the most interesting ability: she can use it get a second attack with a small figure like an Elite Stormtrooper or Gideon once an appropriate figure is nearby.  There's also lots of potential to use False Orders to move away small figures like officers and smugglers that are attempting to control objectives.  Fatal Deception seems like an auto include if you have Murne as a cheap 1-point way to enhance False Orders.  False Orders also combos very well with the Single Purpose command card (doubly so with Fatal Deception).  Also, remember you can use her to "steal" a Focus or Hide condition from an opposing figure and use its damage boost against your opponent.

 

6 health for 4 points is reasonable (though not especially tough). Murn's abilities will defiantly make her a target so you'll want to protect her.  (This is why it's very helpful her abilities don't require line of sight.)

 

Field Report seems really good if you can trigger it consistently by optimizing your squad with ways to draw extra Command Cards like Rebel High Command and R2-D2, however holding your command cards just to get the ability would be a bad move a lot of the time (playing Command Cards wins games).  You can, of course play cards after getting the bonus following Murne's activation.

 

Finally, the Leader class is already one of the best to have for skirmish and Spy looks to be getting lots of goodies in this expansion.

 

I think Murn is kind of like a reverse Elite Imperial Officer, which is a good place to be for 4 points.

 

Edits: fixed mixed ability names, added note on stealing Focus, and comments on class types, fixed punctuation.

Edited by nickv2002

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Murne

 

She (or He?) has a reasonable attack when surging for 2 damage.

 

Field Report is certainly the most interesting ability: (s)he can use it get a second attack with a small figure like an Elite Stormtrooper or Gideon once an appropriate figure is nearby.  There's also lots of potential to use False Orders to move away small figures like officers and smugglers that are attempting to control objectives.  Fatal Deception seems like an auto include if you have Murne as a cheap 1-point way to enhance Field Report.  Field Report also combos very well with the Single Purpose command card (doubly so with Fatal Deception).

I think you meant to say "false orders" not "field report" most of this paragraph.

I hadn't noticed how fatal deception works for multiple instances of false orders in one activation though. That's super nice for single purpose!

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I think you meant to say "false orders" not "field report" most of this paragraph.

 

Thanks: fixed.  All her abilities start with F!  False Orders, Field Report, Fatal Deception!

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Haha totally understand.

Did anyone else notice there was no spoiling of a new force user command card? I really hope there's at least one new one. Not sure what it would be but we gotta have a new one since it's not like they can come out in any of the ally packs or when there's no new force user (and we don't know when the next force user coming out after davith would be).

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Dalvith

 

At base stats: 6 points for 10 health, 5 speed, and 2 attack die, Dalvith is woefully under powered.  Let's consider his innate abilities, then his surge abilities to see how he stacks up:

 

Innate Abilities

 

Stealthy: This is a minor bump that all depends on how good the Hide Condition turns out.  So as an aside for Hide: I've learned from the smuggler that -2 accuracy on defense can be effective at dissuading and avoiding long range attacks.  However much of the current IA skirmish maps involves attacks with range 1-4 where I think it's less likely for this to matter.  So it saves you from sniping but does little up close. As a melee character with his abilities you're defiantly going to want to be up close.  So, for Dalvith, Hide is more about giving him an extra Surge (we'll discuss his surge abilities later)

 

Cut and Run: Wow! This seems great. We've learned from the recent tournament star that the Bantha Stampede ability (which similarly gives 1 undependable damage to figures that are pushed by the Bantha) that unmitigated damage, even 1 at a time, is excellent.  Note that you have to exit a space containing a hostile figure which usually means that you'll be spending 2 movement points per space. Even so: I can certainly imagine running Dalvath through several units in one activation with 10 movement points, just to weaken them up or finish them off.  This also combos well with any way to get lots of extra movement or reduce movement costs: specifically the command cards Urgency and Efficient Tavel (or any attachment or ability that grants the Mobility keyword in the future).

 

Surge Abilities

 

Surge: 1 Damage & Hide - I like surge abilities where you get damage + accuracy or a condition.  This is no exception and it keeps your Hide-Chain going while bumping your damage.

 

Surge: Pierce 3 - Negating 5 of the 6 sides of a black die, including the best result, is pretty great.  I'm down on Pierce abilities as the main source of surge -> damage (eg Rebel Troopers) but as a compliment to the other surge abilities this is solid. In fact, Dalvith is so dependent on Surges that you'll probably want to point him at Black-Die Defense figures most of the time anyway where this Pierce will be most effective.  Pierce 3 is certainly useful on Luke's Saber Strike as a way to ensure you push through damage on high defense figures (particularly those that are protected by Royal Gaurds) and here you get to choose if you want to use it after seeing their role.

 

2 Surge: Fell Swoop - This is the Peanut Butter + Chocolate ability that makes his card way better. With all the Hiding and Yellow + Green dice you're usually going to have a few surge symbols to spend on your attack: why not spend it for a second attack!  As a bonus you get to cary over one of the surges you spend here to the second attack (from being Hidden) AND you move 2 space (not gain 2 movement points) which conveniently means you can move through any adjacent figure to trigger Cut and Run!  One damage short of killing your target? No problem: he'll die and you can attack something else!  Next to 1 healthy figure and 1 that is near dead?  You can attack the healthy one, Cut and Run to kill the weak one, and attack the now not as-healthy one again!

 

So Dalvath now seems pretty good for 6 points, but let me put these criticisms forth:

  • Melee really sucks if you get stunned or kited: 5 move and a white die helps here but just be aware!
  • Dalvath is going to have a big target on his head, but (unlike Leia) he's got to be in the thick of things to put the PB and Jelly together.  10 Health can be gone pretty quickly from a single Elite Stormtrooper Activation if you don't roll well.
  • ​You can only Fell Swoop once per round, so there's a good chance you'll have extra surges you can't spend on that second attack (maybe take your second attack against a White Die-figure).

Vanish initially underwealmed me, as I don't want to spend 2 points on a command card that doesn't do damage, requires an action, and is locked to 1 figure.  However I think Dalvith will have such a big target on him that keeping him alive for an additional activation will make this worth playing.  Notably, you gain 4 movement points here that you can use to Cut and Run nearby figures when you next activate (or add to a move action to Cut farther away).

 

The Force User class type is underutilized right now but has a few good command cards already (with more on the way hopefully).  Spy has a few and looks like it will get more with this expansion.

 

Edits: Added comments on class types.

Edited by nickv2002

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I am extremely excited for this. I also hope that a new force user command card will be previewed. Actually, i really hope the ugnaughts and wing guards boost the scum faction. I love the faction, but it just does not have a cheap easy unit. Time to preorder!

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Davith fits in a nice area with Diala (though often not used) because both seem like a real pain to take care of with the right dice and while they can't tac on massive damage, they can do enough disruption to be worth the points to me.

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Yay new cards to talk about.... looks like I'm not getting much work done today.

 

So Davith....

I think he's priced well. But he could be difficult to use. He's only doing an average of 3-3.5 damage depending on defense dice. This is pretty good for 6 points... but it goes down a lot if you're using the surges for Fell Swoop (which you'll always want to do). So his first attack is more like 2.5-3 damage.

The pierce 3 is where things start to get interesting, and giving him a Focus would also be great value for more surges. He's got a pretty good chance at pushing some damage through on Vader, AT-STs and RGC because of the pierce 3.

I'm not a huge fan of his command card Vanish.... Melee characters really need both actions to move and attack... taking one of those away basically takes away their whole turn. You don't want use this 6 point guy as just a runner, coz you can get smugglers to do that for cheaper.

However, it is a pretty good card on turn 1 and if you combine it with something like efficient travel. Now next turn you can move 9, hit everyone you move through for 1dmg and not be slowed down at all..... then still attack, fell swoop and attack again. It's also a great escape card to save his bacon in a tight situation, but does take an action so you can only do it in your activation.... he might die before he can use it if he's in danger. 

He's going to be a huge threat to the back line (officers, gideon etc). He's basically what boba is ... but less than half the points. 

That's all before you add in any other force user or spy cards.
Slippery target because more useful (it was already good but hard to fit into a deck)

Behind enemy lines is super easy for him to trigger with his high movement. You can step into the deployment zone, trigger it, then keep moving back out of it. Great for that movement 9 turn. 

Meditation could be funny when combined with Vanish. You could move 14 and attack on turn 2 for the cost of doing nothing turn 1. Could be useful I guess.... 
Deflection becomes amazing on a Hidden figure. -4 acc and do damage to attacker. 

 

Unfortunately I think he's designed to kill regular stormtroopers... And he's priced very well for that... but I don't think it's a role that really needed any more help. They are already pretty easy to kill. On the other hand, he can struggle a bit to kill an elite one. The pierce 3 helps for sure... but on a green/yellow... you're getting an average of 2.2 hits and 1.4 surges (+1 surge for hidden)..... So on the first attack if you get 2 (maybe 3) surges, you'll use Fell swoop... which means you're only pushing through 2 or less damage even with the pierce.

On the second attack you'll almost always get 2 surges and you'll use both for damage and pierce which means you're pushing through an average of 3.5 dmg.

In other words, you're using both your attacks and all your abilities to just kill an elite stormtrooper. That's not including the extra hit from his cut and run, but that starts eating into your movement points pretty quickly. 

Not bad, but not amazing. With a focus and some command cards he can be quite nasty... but I'm worried that his low base damage output is going to be disappointing. 

He's going to need a lot of help and a lot of tricks to be effective. On the other hand, 6 points is pretty good. Take him over Saska any day lol. 

Murne Rin on the other had i'm not a huge fan of.

Sure displacing enemy models (or attacking with them is super handy) but she's gotta be very close to do that. With only 6 health and black dice for defense it puts her in huge danger of being killed in a single activation. She's going to have to make good use of her field report ability to survive. 
She does have a solid attack for 4 points (much better than Mak and similar to Loku's) 
Command card is nice and works great with single purpose. 
She's not amazing against Rebels because there's so many unique characters but for 4 points she's a pretty solid buy. I don't think she'll replace Gideon, and I can't think of a list that would benefit more from her than any other. She seems to be an all rounder but doesn't add much to any specific team. 

Edited by Inquisitorsz

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I thought I'd make a list of good Command Card Synergies that complement each new character based on what people have mentioned above:

 

Murne

  • Single Purpose (2 False Orders)
  • Planning (More cards for Field Report)

Dalvith (Including Suggestions from Inquisitorsz below)

  • Efficient Travel (Cheaper Cut & Run)
  • Deflection (Combines with Hide for -4 Accuracy)
  • Slippery Target (Additional movement & melee defense)
  • Urgency / Fleet Footed (Additional movement)
  • Meditation (Wait in safety now to Cut & Run more later)
  • I Can Feel It (Utilitarian card for re-rolls)
  • Pummel (Extra attacks could be more useful after moving from Meditation or Vanish)
  • Hit and Run (Additional movement)
  • Heart of Freedom (Stun Removal & Movement together)

Dalvith gets a lot of synergy from command cards.  Maybe a clue on how to optimally use him?

Edited by nickv2002

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Here's some more great cards for Dalvith:

 

Heart of Freedom is already a must include card but also great for Dalvith, removes stun which is critical for melee characters and gives him more movement. 

 

Pummel can be handy after you use Vanish. Would allow a move of 4 and 2 attacks (+1 for Fell Swoop). 

 

Stealth tactics might be useful giving him more defense since he's usually going to be WAY deep. 

 

Hit and Run is great for him too. Even more movement. Fell swoop and Hit and Run are both "after attack resolves" so controlling player can choose the order... You could attack... trigger Fell Swoop, move 3 (from Hit and Run) then move 2, Hide and Attack again from Fell Swoop. Actually you probably have to do it in that order anyway due to having to spend movement points from special actions straight away... but still... it's essentially a free extra move.

Move 5, Attack, Move 5, Attack. All in one activation, all with free surges from Hide and all while doing damage to anyone you move through. 

 

Fleet footed ain't bad either. Going from Speed 5 to Speed 6 is big jump.

 

I Can Feel It will be super important because that reroll can be the difference between moving and attacking again or getting caught out in a bad position. 

Edited by Inquisitorsz

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Hidden is pretty much great for everyone. Extra surges are almost always useful. And the defense from -2 acc is great for everyone.

IG-88 is a great candidate, a free surge lets him use his great abilities while picking red or blue dice as needed (dmg or range). He does need to be fairly close to do good dmg so Hide helps there. 

Boba... not so much. His surge abilities aren't great and he's already a pain to kill. 

I agree trando's could do with the extra surge and extra defense. 

 

Would be great for HKs as well.... much harder to hit at long range and more surges could allow them to reroll for damage. They are very squishy so the extra defense is great. 

Even hired guns get good use out of Hide. 

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Here's some more great cards for Dalvith:

Thanks I added most of these.  Hit & Run is great with him.

 

Stealth Tactics is just useful anywhere, not more complimentary to Dalvith.  Same goes for any re-roll card especially when re-rolling white defense die.  Heart of Freedom is similarly universal, but he's more likely to get stunned and gets more value from the moment points...

Edited by nickv2002

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Hidden is pretty much great for everyone. Extra surges are almost always useful. And the defense from -2 acc is great for everyone.

IG-88 is a great candidate, a free surge lets him use his great abilities while picking red or blue dice as needed (dmg or range). He does need to be fairly close to do good dmg so Hide helps there. 

Boba... not so much. His surge abilities aren't great and he's already a pain to kill. 

I agree trando's could do with the extra surge and extra defense. 

 

Would be great for HKs as well.... much harder to hit at long range and more surges could allow them to reroll for damage. They are very squishy so the extra defense is great. 

Even hired guns get good use out of Hide. 

 

 

Hidden is great on anyone.  Focus is great on anyone.  Sure that's true but but you want characters that get extra synergies from those abilities to maximize who you Focus with Gideon/3PO, or Hide with Murne.

 

In particular:

  • Saboteurs and are great targets for both Hide and Focus because they can use the Surges and Range bonus.
  • HK Droids are good with Focus because of their re-roll (possibly similar with Lando).  They usually don't need extra surges but the range penalty from Hide could help their defense as they snipe from afar.
  • Hiding Luke will be a good play especially if you want to help him hit's that Recover & 2 Damage Surge on a Saber Strike.
Edited by nickv2002

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Hidden is pretty much great for everyone. Extra surges are almost always useful. And the defense from -2 acc is great for everyone.

IG-88 is a great candidate, a free surge lets him use his great abilities while picking red or blue dice as needed (dmg or range). He does need to be fairly close to do good dmg so Hide helps there. 

Boba... not so much. His surge abilities aren't great and he's already a pain to kill. 

I agree trando's could do with the extra surge and extra defense. 

 

Would be great for HKs as well.... much harder to hit at long range and more surges could allow them to reroll for damage. They are very squishy so the extra defense is great. 

Even hired guns get good use out of Hide. 

 

 

Hidden is great on anyone.  Focus is great on anyone.  Sure that's true but but you want characters that get extra synergies from those abilities to maximize who you Focus with Gideon/3PO, or Hide with Murne.

 

In particular:

  • Saboteurs and are great for Both because they can use the Suges and Range bonus.
  • HK Droids are good with Focus because of their re-roll (possibly similar with Lando).  They usually don't need extra surges but the range penalty from Hide could help their defense as they snipe from afar.
  • Hiding Luke will be a good play especially if you want to help him hit's that Recover & 2 Damage Surge on a Saber Strike.

 

Yeah I didn't have time to go through and find all the best uses (looked at Mercs mostly) but those are some great examples. Sabs often struggle to get enough surges, and they're squishy with very low health. HKs I mentioned. And hiding high value targets like luke, leia, fenn is always handy =) 

Edited by Inquisitorsz

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I think Hide on Davith is more powerful than what meets the eye. The Force User card Deflection runs on accuracy as well. Together that is -4 range which could easily be enough to negate the attack and return the 2 damage. I think his hiding makes Deflection a much better card (not to mention having a third target for Force User cards in general).

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For False Orders or Fatal Deception, would a focused hostile figure use the focus for the attack? Does the "you declare an attack" on focus reference the figure or the owner?  Also, would Hidden be removed if the hostile figure was hidden?  Again, it uses "you must discard this condition".

 

If so, not only do you attack with the figures, but also remove some good buffs!

Edited by gerbo78

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For False Orders or Fatal Deception, would a focused hostile figure use the focus for the attack? Does the "you declare an attack" on focus reference the figure or the owner?  Also, would Hidden be removed if the hostile figure was hidden?  Again, it uses "you must discard this condition".

 

If so, not only do you attack with the figures, but also remove some good buffs!

 

Yep you can do this as I mentioned earlier:

 

Murne

 

[…]

 

Also, remember you can use her to "steal" a Focus or Hide condition from an opposing figure and use its damage boost against your opponent.

 

Edited by nickv2002

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Murne Rin on the other had i'm not a huge fan of.

Sure displacing enemy models (or attacking with them is super handy) but she's gotta be very close to do that. With only 6 health and black dice for defense it puts her in huge danger of being killed in a single activation. She's going to have to make good use of her field report ability to survive.

Her hps are a bit lack luster, but shes an amazing card to interrupt players trying to synergize two different deployment cards. She can easily break up combos or at least cause the opponent to have to dedicate to moving first, rather than another action resolve and then move. Theyll have to commit to that move them perform the action. Also against anyone next to a terminal/token...now your opponent will have to consider keeping 2 figures present instead of just 1. She makes the opponent play more defense.

She's not amazing against Rebels because there's so many unique characters but for 4 points she's a pretty solid buy. I don't think she'll replace Gideon, and I can't think of a list that would benefit more from her than any other. She seems to be an all rounder but doesn't add much to any specific team.

She can def interrupt c3po/leia/fenn/erebel troops by just causing them to have to move first before committing to an action, or even possibly preventing a second action all together.

~D

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I tried Dalvith in a skirmish list last night with (splashed into a Bantha/HK merc list along with Gideon).  My thought was that he would be effective at cleaning up the damaged figures the Bantha had Trampled and Stampeded.

 

He was great for finishing off figures that had 1 or 2 health left but he was sub-par in taking on Elite Stormtroopers that had 5 health because it was hard for him to do 5 damage to one of them in one activation.  He did stay hidden the whole game, but with just 2 attack die and surging for only 1 damage it's hard to push high amounts of damage.  Pierce 3 basically negates the black die which is great, but then you need you need 2 surges (one coming from Hide) to keep attacking. That means you're only going to do 1, maybe 2 damage in most cases on the first attack.  You can even occasionally miss getting 2 surges, which is pretty bad.  FWIW, I didn't draw into any command cards we've discussed previously that help power him up.

 

So first opinion is that he's just okay: He's a decent way to spend 6 points but the opposing team can counter a lot of his power by just spreading out their team a bit so he can't Cut & Run and Fell Swoop multiple figures in one activation. Needs more testing but, at 6 points for Rebels, it might be better to just spend the extra point to get some Elite Sabs.

Edited by nickv2002

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