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kerbarian

Fun Ghost combo with the new FAQ

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The combo is:  VCX-100 + TLT + FCS + Luke (or Gunner).  Say you're shooting at a target in arc at range 2-3.  Attack with the TLT and try to hit once and miss once (if necessary you can use the target lock from FCS on your second TLT shot to try to make it miss).  Then (thanks to the miss and Luke) make a 4-dice primary attack with TL + Luke.

 

Per the new FAQ, I believe this works if you miss either TLT shot, not just the second one.  If you miss the first TLT shot you now have two triggered events from the same trigger ("perform another attack against the same target using this weapon" and "perform a primary weapon attack"), and you can resolve the second TLT attack first (and maybe hit) and then resolve the primary attack.

 

A normal VCX on its engagement round would get 3 hits with its primary (4 dice with either TL or focus).  With this combo, you can get 3.4 hits on your primary plus 1 TLT damage (or against aces, two attacks to strip tokens) and it doesn't even take your action, so you can also evade and stay healthier.

 

It is quite expensive, though.  50 points for a Lothal Rebel with TLT + FCS + Luke.  You could even run two and put Gunner + Han on the second one...

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The combo is:  VCX-100 + TLT + FCS + Luke (or Gunner).  Say you're shooting at a target in arc at range 2-3.  Attack with the TLT and try to hit once and miss once (if necessary you can use the target lock from FCS on your second TLT shot to try to make it miss).  Then (thanks to the miss and Luke) make a 4-dice primary attack with TL + Luke.

 

Per the new FAQ, I believe this works if you miss either TLT shot, not just the second one.  If you miss the first TLT shot you now have two triggered events from the same trigger ("perform another attack against the same target using this weapon" and "perform a primary weapon attack"), and you can resolve the second TLT attack first (and maybe hit) and then resolve the primary attack.

 

You can trigger Luke off the initial shot, but you would still need to resolve the second TLT attack first or Luke's "cannot perform any more attacks this round" clause will be in effect when you try (and fail) to use the TLT's second attack.

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It's still cheaper than the title + Attack Shuttle.

 

I like it, I've used FCS and gunner on a Lambda to force the first shot to miss when using Darth Vader before to get two uses out of him in one turn. It was a big use of points and I lost all my shields in the first turn of shooting, but it did some serious damage.

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You can trigger Luke off the initial shot, but you would still need to resolve the second TLT attack first or Luke's "cannot perform any more attacks this round" clause will be in effect when you try (and fail) to use the TLT's second attack.

 

Yes, you'd definitely have to resolve the second TLT shot before the primary.  What I believe is new is that you can "save" the Luke trigger and use it after the second TLT attack, i.e. miss with TLT, then hit with TLT, then attack with primary.

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if you use accuracy corrector you can intentionally miss the 2nd TLT, so you always have 1 TLT shot and Luke. if you put a tactician that's 3 stress at range 2. the problem is it's quite expensive and it's hard to stay at range 2 in arc with the ghost for more than 1 round. 

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if you use accuracy corrector you can intentionally miss the 2nd TLT, so you always have 1 TLT shot and Luke. if you put a tactician that's 3 stress at range 2. the problem is it's quite expensive and it's hard to stay at range 2 in arc with the ghost for more than 1 round. 

4 stress with the Ghost title

 

edit: just kidding.

Edited by Kdubb

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Gunner/Luke doesn't work well with the title for 2 reasons.

  1. First of all if you use Gunner/Luke you lock out any attacks for title care in the end phase. So If you used luke and had the title Luke would overrule the title.
  2. The title ghost is written you cannot make more than one attack in the end phase. That is why yo don't get a 2nd TLT shot. IF you make an attack and it misses you cannot trigger luke/gunner because the title prevents that.

To sum it all up once you use either card for an additional attack you are done with ALL attacks for the turn.

Edited by Marinealver

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You can trigger Luke off the initial shot, but you would still need to resolve the second TLT attack first or Luke's "cannot perform any more attacks this round" clause will be in effect when you try (and fail) to use the TLT's second attack.

 

Yes, you'd definitely have to resolve the second TLT shot before the primary.  What I believe is new is that you can "save" the Luke trigger and use it after the second TLT attack, i.e. miss with TLT, then hit with TLT, then attack with primary.

 

 

I think popular opinion is that this FAQ will be corrected pretty soon.

 

Precedent to date is that, at the point anything new triggers, that new trigger FULLY RESOLVES before you step back into the sequence of events that you split off from to resolve it.  IE., everything is fully nested.

 

This idea of "saving" triggers is just...insanity, and will lead to madness.

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You can trigger Luke off the initial shot, but you would still need to resolve the second TLT attack first or Luke's "cannot perform any more attacks this round" clause will be in effect when you try (and fail) to use the TLT's second attack.

 

Yes, you'd definitely have to resolve the second TLT shot before the primary.  What I believe is new is that you can "save" the Luke trigger and use it after the second TLT attack, i.e. miss with TLT, then hit with TLT, then attack with primary.

 

 

I think popular opinion is that this FAQ will be corrected pretty soon.

 

Precedent to date is that, at the point anything new triggers, that new trigger FULLY RESOLVES before you step back into the sequence of events that you split off from to resolve it.  IE., everything is fully nested.

 

This idea of "saving" triggers is just...insanity, and will lead to madness.

 

It seems that with this FAQ they are trying to move away from the Magic The Gathering concept of nesting or stacking effects, and instead staying in the more "X-Wingish" concept of a pool of simultaneous effects from which the player picks one at a time and resolves it before moving onto the next one.

 

The "nesting" interaction of "Push the Limit" with, for example, "Experimental Interface", still works within the new concept, but it is just one of several possible orders of resolution, instead of "the" order of resolution.

I mean:

  1. The player performs an action. That triggers PTL that goes to the pool.

    POOL : PTL [After you perform an action]

  2. The player resolves PTL from the pool, performs an action, then two effects trigger at the same time.

    POOL: "Get a stress token [After performing the action given by PTL]", Experimental Interface [After your perform an action]

  3. Both effects happen at the same time, so the player chooses to resolve EI first, and performs an action.

    POOL: "Get a stress token [After performing the action given by PTL]", "Get a stress token [After performing the action given by EI]"

  4. Finally, the player resolves the two last effects in the pool in whatever order, getting two stress tokens.

    POOL: Empty

Edited by Azrapse

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First thing, where is this new concept of nesting coming from? Is it in the new FAQ? Second what about the wording on Luke and Gunner saying after an attacked is missed you may "immediately" perform a primary weapon attack. The word immediate would suggest to me this is not an effect you can hold off on until you're ready to use it. So in my estimation if you miss the first TLT shot you may choose to immediately perform a primary weapon attack but forfeit your second TLT attack.

Yes intentionally trying to miss the second TLT shot via Miranda's ability or target locking hits/crits are within the rules.

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Aren't you guys missing the fact that TLT is not an immediate trigger? There wouldn't be a concept of two immediate triggers letting you choose which one to pick first. You resolve the first attack and then you preform a full second attack in which you skip the declare weapon and target steps. After which point you have preform an attack that has hit.

 

Gunner gets to interrupt TLT but you forfeit the second shot. TLT doesn't interrupt gunner and then let you preform gunner.

Edited by MatchstickMan740

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Nothing has changed in the way it works.  Do what the cards say.  

 

First volley of TLT misses.  You have a choice whether to trigger Gunner or not.  If you do, then the Primary Weapon Gunner attack happens immediately, BEFORE the second volley, and then the second volley is not allowed to trigger.

 

ONLY if you choose NOT to trigger Gunner does the second TLT volley occur.  The ONLY way you get all three shots is if you trigger Gunner from the SECOND TLT shot.

 

Nothing has changed.  This has always and is still the way it works.

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Nothing has changed in the way it works.  Do what the cards say.  

 

First volley of TLT misses.  You have a choice whether to trigger Gunner or not.  If you do, then the Primary Weapon Gunner attack happens immediately, BEFORE the second volley, and then the second volley is not allowed to trigger.

 

ONLY if you choose NOT to trigger Gunner does the second TLT volley occur.  The ONLY way you get all three shots is if you trigger Gunner from the SECOND TLT shot.

 

Nothing has changed.  This has always and is still the way it works.

 

The FAQ entry for Valen Rudor sets the precedent that the "immediately" in Gunner doesn't really matter and can be preempted by other effects with the same timing. It also establishes that the extra attacks from TLT and Cluster Missiles should be treated as an "after attacking" effect.

Based on that, it seems like there is no reason that you couldn't miss with TLT, resolve the second attack with TLT (and hit), and then use Gunner to make a third attack.  

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I'd like both Match and Engine to back up thier ideas with FAQ proof and not just adamant feelings of the matter. I find the discussions of these rules are sometimes more based on people's blunt resistance to an idea then a logical disagreement.

A TLT is two attacks that skip the declare target step, but are still two attacks. If Airen Cracken could use a TLT, he could give an action off each, tactician can give two stress and one missed attack within the the two can trigger Gunner. Funny enough, as stated in the new FAQ, you can choose the time of "immediately" to then trigger Gunner after the two attacks complete. I think it will be changed that you must use gunner right after the attack missed, but for now, we got a loophole!

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I'd like both Match and Engine to back up thier ideas with FAQ proof and not just adamant feelings of the matter. I find the discussions of these rules are sometimes more based on people's blunt resistance to an idea then a logical disagreement.

A TLT is two attacks that skip the declare target step, but are still two attacks. If Airen Cracken could use a TLT, he could give an action off each, tactician can give two stress and one missed attack within the the two can trigger Gunner. Funny enough, as stated in the new FAQ, you can choose the time of "immediately" to then trigger Gunner after the two attacks complete. I think it will be changed that you must use gunner right after the attack missed, but for now, we got a loophole!

The new text related to "Perform This Attack Twice" doesn't change how it works. And we have a precedent with "cannot attack again this round" also, in the text on the Phantom card, which prevents the second TLT attack. You can perform both attacks with TLT and trigger Gunner if the second attack misses, or if the first attack misses you have the choice to trigger Gunner and cancel your second TLT attack, or trigger the second TLT attack and cancel the Gunner attack.

More to the point, this text was not removed from the Gunner FAQ entry, page 13:

"When Gunner is used to perform a primary weapon attack, any additional attacks (such as from Cluster Missiles) are forfeited."

The new entry on Perform This Attack Twice applies to both Cluster Missiles and Twin Laser Turret. If the second Cluster Missiles attack is forfeit, then the second TLT attack is forfeit.

No loophole. Clearly defined by the rules. You attack with TLT or Clusters. If the first attack hits, proceed to second attack. If the second attack misses, you may trigger Gunner. If the first attack misses, you may choose to perform the second attack OR trigger Gunner, NOT both, as if you trigger Gunner, the second attack is now forfeit according to Page 13 of the FAQ. The only way to trigger both attacks AND Gunner is if the second attack misses.

There is no change here, as it has always functioned this way and continues to do so. It was simply a clarification for weapons that perform multiple attacks. New text in the FAQ doesn't necessarily mean things have changed. The new text simply fulfills the purpose of the FAQ, which is to simplify vague or confusing points in the rules.

Edited by Engine25

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Perform this attack twice (Twin Laser Turret)
“After you perform this attack for the first time, perform another attack against the same target using this weapon."
 
Gunner
"After you perform an attack that does not hit, immediately perform a primary weapon attack. You cannot perform another attack this round."

FAQ:
Q: If a player has multiple effects that resolve at the same time, can he resolve them in any order?
A: Yes
---
Unless "immediately" becomes defined as a keyword that changes ability to choose resolution order, TLT(miss) -> TLT(hit) -> Gunner is a valid sequence, as per the above.

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I'd like both Match and Engine to back up thier ideas with FAQ proof and not just adamant feelings of the matter. I find the discussions of these rules are sometimes more based on people's blunt resistance to an idea then a logical disagreement.

A TLT is two attacks that skip the declare target step, but are still two attacks. If Airen Cracken could use a TLT, he could give an action off each, tactician can give two stress and one missed attack within the the two can trigger Gunner. Funny enough, as stated in the new FAQ, you can choose the time of "immediately" to then trigger Gunner after the two attacks complete. I think it will be changed that you must use gunner right after the attack missed, but for now, we got a loophole!

 

I would actually like you all to back yours up with FAQ proof.

 

Here's the situation....

 

TLT you preform an attack.

Attack Misses.

You now have two triggered abilities.

 

IF you choose Gunner you forfeit the second shot as stated in the FAQ.

 

IF you choose TLT, you have chosen to close that performance of an attack. You are now opening the second performance of an attack, after which if you have missed you have the opportunity to trigger gunner as you have performed an attack that missed. Otherwise you have already closed the first performance of an attack and are now sitting after ending the second performance of an attack.

 

 

Yep... FFG just had to screw with Valen Rudor's ability. Instead of 1 card/pilot kind of breaking the rules, we now have all this mess.

 

Valen's ability doesn't change how this works at all.

 

Here's how this goes.... Once the attack has been preformed Valen and the ship attacking Valen that has gunner both trigger. The player with initiative chooses which will resolve first.

 

IF Valen DOES NOT have initiative Gunner will trigger and Valen will have to defend from the second attack before he could preform his ability. 

IF Valen DOES have initiative Valen can trigger his ability first, then allows the other player to trigger Gunner which at that point Gunner may not be able to be preformed as there may not be a valid target anymore. If there is another valid target that player may still activate Gunner and preform the attack on that ship instead.

 

The same could be said about TLT...Once the attack has been preformed Valen and the ship attacking Valen that has TLT both trigger under the Preform Two Attacks Rule...

 

 “After you perform this attack for the first time, perform another attack against the same target using this weapon.”

 

This means just as Valen's FAQ says the player with Initiative chooses which ability will trigger first.

 

IF Valen DOES have initiative Valen can trigger his ability first which could make him an INVALID target for the second TLT shot.

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No loophole. Clearly defined by the rules. You attack with TLT or Clusters. If the first attack hits, proceed to second attack. If the second attack misses, you may trigger Gunner. If the first attack misses, you may choose to perform the second attack OR trigger Gunner, NOT both, as if you trigger Gunner, the second attack is now forfeit according to Page 13 of the FAQ. The only way to trigger both attacks AND Gunner is if the second attack misses.

 

 

 

What is it about making the second TLT attack would make you pass up the opportunity to trigger Gunner off of the first missed attack? There's nothing in the language of TLT or Cluster missiles that would prohibit making further attacks. If the second attack is treated the same as any other "after attacking" there is no reason that choosing to resolve the second attack before resolving Gunner should cancel Gunner's trigger. 

 

Previous to this FAQ update attacks hadn't been handled as effects. Each attack and all of its resulting triggered effects were handled before moving on to the second attack.

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Perform this attack twice (Twin Laser Turret)

“After you perform this attack for the first time, perform another attack against the same target using this weapon."

 
Gunner

"After you perform an attack that does not hit, immediately perform a primary weapon attack. You cannot perform another attack this round."

FAQ:

Q: If a player has multiple effects that resolve at the same time, can he resolve them in any order?
A: Yes

---

Unless "immediately" becomes defined as a keyword that changes ability to choose resolution order, TLT(miss) -> TLT(hit) -> Gunner is a valid sequence, as per the above.

 

 

If the behavior of "immediately" were changed, FCS would no longer provide a Target Lock that could be used with the attacks granted by Gunner or Luke (but would still work for IG-88B).

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