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CoyDK

How to Fix "the WFRP mess"

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First this is not a rant or a "f you FFG". I respect FFG and have played hundreds if not thousands of hours with there systems (d100 ftw) and I have loved almost every minute of it. Dark Heresy, Deathwatch & Only War, bloody good games not perfect but good.

 

And thats the reason why i feel so sad every time I look at the 3rd edition... what the heck happened? If we look at back at WFRP 1ed we had our flail wielding assassins so saying "the good old days was better" would be a lie. WFRP have evolved allot over the years and it became better with every book that came out. The first editon was good, second edition was great and third edition was horrific bad! 
Why? why was that, the reason (in this nerds mind) is that if something aint broken dont fix it! They took a good system, used it in there other series (40k) and then invented a board game rpg that was so complicated even a ANIMA player wins. 

The d100 system was not perfect but with a refined hand it can be made much MUCH better, look at Dark Heresy 2nd Edition (no I aint going to start about the other problems the game have but the core system is in place and its good).

If they had made WFRP 3rd Edition a evolved version then It WOULD have been a much MUCH better game.

 

How can we fix "the WFRP mess" then?

 

- d100 system

- Simple system that focus on game speed and not how many dice you can role each turn (look at the one ring rpg, its a great system)

- MAPS big laminated maps I can fap on without ruining them of the world and its lands. Info on the land, each place have a story and we want the tools to tell them without using 10 hours on inventing everything our selves.

- Sours Books about factions, races exc. They did have some in 2nd edition but not in the depth we need (D&D looking at you with a big thump up!)

- Balance in the system, even for high levels. (So we dont run in to that "you meet a enemy that have a hard time hitting you and have a gazilion wounds problem)

 

These are but some of the bigger issues but there are TONS of ways to improve and make the game more fun. Character creation software for out computers, and tools for the gm to make monster & campange lists and what not.

 

I am still holding my little candle in the air hoping for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying Game 4th Edition!

PS: More skaven! *Squeek!*

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Personally I find this version of WFRP to be the best version of it. WFRP2 was only interesting because it was Warhammer. The actual rules was just a lot of boring number-crunching. Just like most other rpgs. WFRP3 finally did something different where storytelling was the focus instead of calculating to hit rolls and success percentages.

Your fix seems to be to make it into v2, which we allready have with a lot of expansion books. All WFRP3 really needs is more expansion packs since it got cut off before it was really filled out.

Edited by Ralzar

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Yeah I'm with Ralzar in preferring WFRP3 over previous versions. In particular I'd argue with your major criticisim of the so called WFRP3 mess being fixed by a return to d100's is way off. Sure most people are more familiar with d100's as they were with gramaphones before internet radio came along but does that make them better? As already said the dice help with narrative storyrtelling in a way that d100's simply don't. And you only have to look at the success of Star Wars (with similar dice) to see the benefits of them. 

 

No, WFRP3 isn't perfect (they perhaps went overboard on the cards but it never was and never will be a board game) and sure there were some things that could have been addressed by FG but which weren't, and now seemingly never will but there are many of us still playing and enjoying a game that at least dared to be different, even if it seems the experience tells us that it was a bit too different to appeal to the overwhelming majority of players. 

Edited by Noelyuk

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You know, I think a 3.5 system would help a great deal here. Keep the dice system ( as said before it is really fun) but ditch the board game elements and put all the rules you needed a specific card for into the core book. This would drop the entry price below $100+ dollars, and help with the ever looming threat of what happens if i lose my favorite spell card!  

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Why? why was that, the reason (in this nerds mind) is that if something aint broken dont fix it!

 

There's your reason for them doing something different. Second edition is fine enough as it is, and doing another revision for it would mostly just be a waste of peoples' time and money.

 

I'd personally like to see a version of warhammer incorporating a lot of the little changes they made for star wars (reducing dice pool bloat, smoothing out dice math, and a bunch of minor rules fixes) while still having all of the physical bits available. There are a few things that they could cut down on or that could be incorporated into an app instead. In fact, I'd love it if they just released WFRP as-is with an app holding all the different bits in it.

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ZWEIHANDER Grim & Perilous RPG may have a total dice conversion option for WFRP 3E to ZWEI. No cards, no mess and no fiddly bits necessary! It's something we've been working on, and hope to present during our Kickstarter phase.

 

Otherwise, ZWEIHANDER Grim & Perilous RPG may be what you're looking for, if you desire a well-balanced D100 game. No bloat, no mess and no fudging - period. From introductory to end game balance, all mechanics work soundly for characters in their first career to those in their last career. And, you can download and play the open beta GRIMDARK Edition for free right now: http://grimandperilous.com/?page_id=95

Edited by GrimAndPerilous.com

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I'd personally like to see a version of warhammer incorporating a lot of the little changes they made for star wars (reducing dice pool bloat, smoothing out dice math, and a bunch of minor rules fixes) while still having all of the physical bits available. There are a few things that they could cut down on or that could be incorporated into an app instead. In fact, I'd love it if they just released WFRP as-is with an app holding all the different bits in it.

 

 

I agree with the changes Nimsim. As for the app, that's a great idea, though I wouldn't hold my breath. Given that the dice roller app went down with no sign of being reinstated despite my numerous protest emails. I wouldn't expect an app.

 

Having said that me and my group play WFRP3 exclusively via Fantasy Grounds software and while it's certainly more than an app (and has a price to reflect that) what it does is manage all those fiddly bits so that you don't have to. No huge dining room table necessary and no chance of losing your fiddly bits and/or your favourite spellcard htsmithium. They do a trial version so you might wanna check it out. My players and I swear by it.

Edited by Noelyuk

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It took me around 10 minutes to explane the d100 system to my players. I could conjure a enemy and number crunch him in my head no problem, that is next to impossible i 3rd Edition. The table is flooded with cards, tokens and other clutter. 
I am a old school game master and I run my games in the way most older rpg'ers do. We have a map, a character sheet and a few dices, thats it (and a **** ton of beers & snacks ofc).

I like games like Vampire The Masqurade & wherewolf, I like D&D 3.0 (to a degree) and I love Dark Heresy (the game system not the setting). There is nothing in 3rd edition I like besides the cardboard dungeon stuff, but I make my own now so rly there aint anything in 3rd editon I like.

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I would love a supplement that lets us use the "WFRP Lite" approach with all the published rules. Love the game, but got in too late to get the product before FFG ended support.

Edited by random.brown

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It took me around 10 minutes to explane the d100 system to my players. I could conjure a enemy and number crunch him in my head no problem, that is next to impossible i 3rd Edition. The table is flooded with cards, tokens and other clutter. 

When d100 is and always has been the default system it's little wonder that most people will  come to grips with it more quickly than something new. As for conjuring an enemy and number crunching in your head. I've no need to do so. I simply grab the relevant creature card (from my indexed cards) and hey presto there's my enemy. As for the table clutter. Yes this is an acknowledged criticism. While most of us fans of the game can understand the reasoning behind the cards (ie eliminating the need for constant rules and looking  things up on reference tables) it has to be said that you need a heck of a lot of table real estate to play the game.

 

Though you know if you guys would just move some of your goddam beers and snacks ... ;)

 

I am a old school game master and I run my games in the way most older rpg'ers do. We have a map, a character sheet and a few dices, thats it (and a **** ton of beers & snacks ofc).

I like games like Vampire The Masqurade & wherewolf, I like D&D 3.0 (to a degree) and I love Dark Heresy (the game system not the setting). There is nothing in 3rd edition I like besides the cardboard dungeon stuff, but I make my own now so rly there aint anything in 3rd editon I like.

 

The old school I get. I'm not 21 either.  I've had a great time with old school systems back in the day. I loved my ZX Spectrum but I have to say it can't hold a candle to my imac. I'm being flippant of course but I think it's a bit harsh to be knocking a game for trying to do something new and deviate from a map, character sheet and dice. And I'm certainly not going to be hammering it for daring to be different. 

 

  • d100? no thanks
  • Game Speed? That's mostly up to the GM to keep up. Though obviously systems can help or hinder this. Though I'd argue that slow pace (of combat especially) is a criticism of many systems including previous editions of WFRP, especially 2nd edition slugfests.
  • Laminated Maps? The world of Warhammer has a ton of maps. Gitzman's website has more than many game systems could dream of having. If you like you can go and laminate one. 
  • http://gitzmansgallery.com/ - Mind you might need a very big laminator if you're planning on laminating his super detailed huge map :) lol
  • More Source Books? Yes please, the more the merrier. Unfortunately as we know FFG stopped production of the game before we saw 3rd edition source books but there's enough lore there in previous ones to satiate the appetites of even the hungriest of players. 
  • Game Balance? Yup there can be issues later down the line but this is not a problem that is exclusive to WFRP3 and can be tweaked by GM and player with house rules and such. 

Anyway 3rd edition clearly isn't the game for you. And that's ok. I don't like marmite while others are big fans.  The 4th edition that you seem to be hankering for though seems to be a rinse and repeat of stuff we already have out there from previous editions and I very much doubt that would be a game I would want to play for very long at all. 

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I agree with most of the replies. This version is my favourite to date, though I don't hate the previous versions and use the source books to mine information. Third edition is a solid game though it does have plenty of unnecessary physical pieces such as the pc/npc tokens, all the tracking parts and the ton of cards. I understand the intent but it seems wasteful, personally. I've been playing the same character for three years and only use ten, maybe, cards. The rest of the cards sit in their storage case. The PDF books contain everything and the relevant info can be transferred over. If they just supplied some blank action cards for at home printing the info could easily be copied over. 

 

I love the dice and the mechanics (stance/fatigue/stress). I've started running something for some close friends who are old D&D players. One of them was with me when I picked up 1st ed when we were teenagers. Both players were easily able to pick up the dice pools and start reading the symbols. That's not very hard and it's the same dice build for every test. Characteristic + Training vs Challenge. It's real pretty easy. I do miss reading charts, etc when I'm reading books, but don't miss them in actual play.

 

I don't get the "a board game rpg that was so complicated..." comment. This game has you tracking: stance, fatigue/stress, wounds and that's really about it for most of your play. Cards get tokens but you can probably juggle those in you head for how long encounters usually last. You run the game without encounter maps and mini's (though can, if you'd like). How do you make *this* easier?

 

Going back to the dice, I had a bit of a revelation last week as to why I really like them.

 

The obvious one is the pass/fail with good/bad side effects. The stars and comets add the third element. Last week our groups Kislevite Barber (he's light on the Surgeon part of his job) hit up the Agent with a new look. Passed with three boons and two chaos stars. We got to stretch our imagination as clearly it was a success with additional benefits, but we couldn't ignore the stars. Something had to happen there. Fantastic. I don't know how we could have gotten something quite as flavourful on the d100. There have been dice rolls as well, where the players have chimed in with the good/bad side effects and it's been perfect because they see the action from their characters, personal point of view.

 

The other reason had to do with a comment I read on how d100 was better because everyone knows the odds before making the roll. I've only just realised that that is why I like these dice. I'm not focused, as a player or a gm, on trying to hit some magic number. These dice, without an app to calculate the odds, hide the numbers from us and we have to use a more natural way of telling the story. If I have a mechanic look at my car or a contractor come to my house they use descriptive language and not numbers to describe what might happen, "This won't be easy" or "there's nothing tricky here". Never do they say "There's a 50% chance we can get this the first time." Banks and investment agents also use a similar language with "conservative/high risk" to describe the plans we submit to. When my GM tells me I'm making a challenging roll I know I'll need help with fortune dice or other players if my character doesn't have training and the characteristic. I'll look to training that skill in the future. It actually feels more natural to add good and bad dice as fits the situation even though somewhere in there the odds may still be 50%.  

 

To sum up, I feel your first two fixes are just steps backwards into a system that is already present. The others are just general WFRP concerns and I'd be happy to see them.

 

Cheers.

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And thats the reason why i feel so sad every time I look at the 3rd edition... what the heck happened? If we look at back at WFRP 1ed we had our flail wielding assassins so saying "the good old days was better" would be a lie. WFRP have evolved allot over the years and it became better with every book that came out. The first editon was good, second edition was great and third edition was horrific bad! 

 

This is a matter of taste, obviously. I've played first, second and third editions of Warhammer and I must say I enjoy the third edition far more than first or second. I've also played a bunch of other RPGs and systems and WFRP3ed is among my top favourites of all times.

 

Also, I've had a bunch of real RPG beginners, who have never played a rpg ever in their lives, and managed to teach them the basics of WFRP3ed in less than 30 minutes. And they have had tons of fun with the game. In total I think I've played WFRP3ed with 10-15 different people, from total beginners to veteran gamers that have played a heap of different RPGs, and all of them have liked the game in general, and appreciated the dice system especially much. Many of those I've played with during the years especially like the fact that the dice help the storytelling, rather than give  a success % and rather linear fumble-fail-success-critical result. The dice system, in my opinion, makes WFRP3ed feel more realistic, while other RPGs feel more like games where the numbers are in focus.

 

As I said, it's a matter of taste. I wouldn't trade the system in WFRP3ed for a(nother) d100 system.

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When d100 is and always has been the default system it's little wonder that most people will  come to grips with it more quickly than something new. As for conjuring an enemy and number crunching in your head. I've no need to do so. I simply grab the relevant creature card (from my indexed cards) and hey presto there's my enemy. As for the table clutter. Yes this is an acknowledged criticism. While most of us fans of the game can understand the reasoning behind the cards (ie eliminating the need for constant rules and looking  things up on reference tables) it has to be said that you need a heck of a lot of table real estate to play the game.

 

 

WFRP First Edition was a mix of all dice. Where the rest are D10/100 based.

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You came to the wrong forum, bro. Only the most persistent and most loyal fans are here. In fact we have already either fallen in love with the system or fixed it to suit our needs. I am one of those who really love the first edition even though I have played tens of sessions with WFRP1 long time ago. 

 

If you want to have real fun with 3rd edition as GM you have to understand the dice system REALLY well. Next imagine this system without cards and bits - just with the dice. Try to imagine you want to reflect some Talents as they are presented without cards - try to write all small details on your character sheet. For now leave all action cards alone.  Then track stress and fatigue - also on the same sheet. Add tracking wounds. Oh, and the stance. Remember - all on one character sheet. Then, the moment you cant find any information on your regular sheet - discover cards and bits again - they are so useful ! :D
 
One more thing that the game introduces, which is very underestimated - is the progress tracker, the REAL tension it adds to the game, but this is a different story.

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When d100 is and always has been the default system it's little wonder that most people will  come to grips with it more quickly than something new. As for conjuring an enemy and number crunching in your head. I've no need to do so. I simply grab the relevant creature card (from my indexed cards) and hey presto there's my enemy. As for the table clutter. Yes this is an acknowledged criticism. While most of us fans of the game can understand the reasoning behind the cards (ie eliminating the need for constant rules and looking  things up on reference tables) it has to be said that you need a heck of a lot of table real estate to play the game.

 

 

WFRP First Edition was a mix of all dice. Where the rest are D10/100 based.

 

Well, they did use all the dice somewhere, but at it's core I think it is fair to say 1st was a d100. To-Hit and skill checks were based on d100. A majority of the characteristics were also d100. I felt it made the game better than AD&D at the because it added more detail because of this.

Edited by kidkraken

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It's interesting that this game mechanics discussion started now.

 

At the moment the biggest problem the entire Warhammer Fantasy setting faces is THE END. The Old World has been destroyed, and GW has moved on. So, who ever gets the license, and is interested to build new system, may not anymore do new version of Old World, what ever system that company might use...

 

Fans have now change to choose to use any one of the three official systems. WFRP1 and WFRP2 (and their fan-works) are probably more easily available, because they are traditional book-based and this way in PDF format also. WFRP3 has couple of major problems - special dice, markers and especially those cards. One day those may not be available anymore. But all should also remember new unofficial system - ZWEIHANDER (mentioned before).

 

Either way, what ever game mechanics you like, this entire setting is now officially over. So, its only us, fans, that keep the Old Warhammer alive.

Edited by jackdays

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It's interesting that this game mechanics discussion started now.

 

At the moment the biggest problem the entire Warhammer Fantasy setting faces is THE END. The Old World has been destroyed, and GW has moved on. So, who ever gets the license, and is interested to build new system, may not anymore do new version of Old World, what ever system that company might use...

 

Fans have now change to choose to use any one of the three official systems. WFRP1 and WFRP2 (and their fan-works) are probably more easily available, because they are traditional book-based and this way in PDF format also. WFRP3 has couple of major problems - special dice, markers and especially those cards. One day those may not be available anymore. But all should also remember new unofficial system - ZWEIHANDER (mentioned before).

 

Either way, what ever game mechanics you like, this entire setting is now officially over. So, its only us, fans, that keep the Old Warhammer alive.

 

GW are messing up as they always do, they are now trying to twist fantasy in to a mix of 40k and fantasy... Sigma Marines... or should i say Mark One Thunder Warriors :D

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I definitely think WFRPG 3.0 would have been a fantastic system if they had used the Career/Specialisation system they later developed for Star Wars, and the SW dice are definitely more refined (or more importantly the side effects have a bigger effect so less are needed to do more). The dice system is so easy, i barely even have stat blocks except for the important NPC's, all the rest is just winged. But a 3.5/4th ed would have been great if GW hadn't gone and smashed up the world. Now it will be years before there is enough Lore and fan base to build an RPG on, and even then it will be a very different beast to the Old World games we have loved.

 

 

On a happy note... Legend of the 5 Rings people, L5R! surely they will take the Star Wars system and modify it to fit the Samurai feel of that game. I just hope it doesn't have quite as many books as Star Wars, my bank account couldn't cope.

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Im awaiting Zweihanders release. That will be my wfrp3.5. My group will be playing Thousand Thrones whenever the kickstarter is released.  We're currently playing "the worlds most cliche game system" for Ravenloft 5e. The only thing I appreciate about dnd is it is simple enough even for an Age of Sigmar player to understand ;)

Edited by Emirikol

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Today, I bought the Core Set and I am really happy. No more tons of book keeping just for a small information hidden in a ton of blahblah. All is written on the cards, these cards that a lot of grumpies don't like. Hey!! All the essential informations are here, under our nose. Sure, it takes place, but what's the problem? Else if the table is small, anyone can, with a little time, arrange her table corner with the required elements.

 

Also, I agree that the dice system is perfect for a pure story telling game, which is the main objective of all RPG. The D100 system brings a high granularity, a high precision in the results. But somewhere, it kills the story telling mechanic just by the excitation to reach THE magical number. The dice system brings rapidity, clear result (that you may like or not), but it keeps the pace of the story telling mechanic.

 

As a lot of players/GMs, I am no more young (I am not old!!! perps.), I played and GMed a lot of RPG, with "classical" mechanism, with a ton of book keeping, but now, as I prefer more the story than the "maths", as I prefer to really see my character/players being thrown in the middle of any action, this specific dice system is puuuuuurfect.

 

I hope that the fan community will bring fan made sourcebooks to replace the defection of FFG. Let's wait & see.

 

WAAAAAAAAAGH!

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There are fan supplements and materials out there of various sorts, adventures and more.

 

Several are hosted at:

 

http://www.gitzmansgallery.com/

 

This includes Count Dimon's very useful quick summary.

 

The daily empire has gone on hiatus but still hosts some things

 

http://dailyempire.guildredemund.net/downloads/wfrp3

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Iv'e just had a thought, and its by no means perfect, but here goes. I love the dice in this system, but the cards annoy me. I love the Star Wars system FFG have since made. I realised that

  • "Edge of the Empire" could be renamed "Empire at War" and become the Human Core rulebook
  • "Age of Rebellion" could become "Halls of Mithril" to be the Dwarf Core rulebook
  • "Force and Destiny" could become "Kingdoms of Ulthuan" for a High Elf Core Rulebook.

Like i said its not perfect, but so many of the tropes fit each of the three races so well.

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Iv'e just had a thought, and its by no means perfect, but here goes. I love the dice in this system, but the cards annoy me. I love the Star Wars system FFG have since made. I realised that

  • "Edge of the Empire" could be renamed "Empire at War" and become the Human Core rulebook
  • "Age of Rebellion" could become "Halls of Mithril" to be the Dwarf Core rulebook
  • "Force and Destiny" could become "Kingdoms of Ulthuan" for a High Elf Core Rulebook.

Like i said its not perfect, but so many of the tropes fit each of the three races so well.

 

I discussed this before with another GM who used to run 3rd Edition when I was asked if the FFG SW system could be compatible with 3rd edition or if it could fix some of the issues that 3rd has.

 

Both rulesets are deceptively similar and what I mean by that is that while they are similar in terms of narrative dice, it ends there. SW uses a dynamic damage system, not fixed. You'd have to remove nearly all the actions in 3rd edition, you'd have to butcher the career advancement system (cause your removing the actions/cards) and there is no way to bring in the dynamic damage system of SW without drastically changing a lot of the other aspects. This was tried with another GM and while it seemed to 'work' for awhile, it created problems with career advancement and a lot of the action cards just being useless now.

 

In the end he switched to 2nd edition WFRP. Problem with trying to incorporate other elements from other rulesets into 3rd edition is that 3rd ed is a fairly rigid restrictive system built around its own mechanics. If you take out even one mechanic, the whole thing comes crumbling down.

Edited by Xyd

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