Would a little Demolisher nerf bring balance to the force, er.. game

[BergerFett 708]

 

I can only make boston now cuz of doggy duty so I am "all in" on my list for that weekend. 

 

Is that the Cambridge one? ****.  I wanted to go to that one but it's my wife's birthday :-( Would have liked to play your Double ISD list there  (and crushed it soundly...not with Clon).

 

yes.  I would have made a game of it for sure.  We coulda bet beers on it since there is a pub 2 doors down.

[Truthiness 5,696]

Again, we'll see how Regionals progress. Everyone was freaking out about "OP" Ackbar not two months ago. Where is he now?

[Rocmistro 1,090]

Then why aren't you advocating a nerf on all Ackbar fleets that involve 4+ Ships?   You're generally paying ~10 points a ship, for an increase of 50-100-150% per arc?  I mean.  That's some interesting bits there, isn't it...  Paying a 10 point tax to increase lethality of a ship by 150%....  

 

 

(Yes, this is intentionally absurd.  This is what happens when I stay out in the Sun too long........)

 

I imagine you're being intentionally silly, but for those who don't understand this, going from 1-3 red dice (CR90A) does not push the envelope, for many reasons:

 

1.  Red dice have a 3/8 chance of producing no damage.

2.  Red dice don't have a no-brainer reroll mechanism (ie, an OE equivalanet).

3.  Despite being a 300% increase in attack power (to go from 1 to 3 red dice), it still doesn't put the CR90 anywhere near a "lethal" tipping point (that is to say, the point at which the volume of your expected damage overloads your enemy's ability to mitigate through a combination of defense tokens, subsequent engineering commands, or simply running away.)

[Kiwi Rat 538]

Just add an officer upgrade that allows a Medium or Large ship that is about to be attacked, to fire one self-defence attack for free once per turn, before the attacker (Demo) rools his attack die.

 

I know its brooken, but it would lower Demo's enthusiasm to do the triple tap as it would automatically get atleast two attacks in return for its effort.

 

Anyway just a thought.

[DUR 885]

I was thinking of what, if any, a demo nerf would look like:

 

Title: Demolisher, modification.

 

I know people can run APT demo, but it's not quite as traumatic as the true Clonisher, IMO.

 

The thing that Clonisher has against it vs Ackbar is you have to fly flawlessly.  One wrong move, even with one of the raiders, and the things unravels.  Probably why netlisting it hasn't been so bad: takes too much time to figure out how to use it.

[shmitty 3,315]

An interesting upgrade might be something like:  "When you are being attacked by a ship at close range, you may use roll your anti-squadron dice.  Each success (or maybe crit) allows you to cancel 1 black dice."

 

Doesn't hurt squadrons, doesn't work on Instigator, but makes Assault Frigate MKIIa and GSD IIs more interesting.

[Reinholt 1,719]

I just want to say one word to you. One word.

 

Are you listening?

 

Flotillas.

[Rocmistro 1,090]

An interesting upgrade might be something like:  "When you are being attacked by a ship at close range, you may use roll your anti-squadron dice.  Each success (or maybe crit) allows you to cancel 1 black dice."

 

Doesn't hurt squadrons, doesn't work on Instigator, but makes Assault Frigate MKIIa and GSD IIs more interesting.

 

Cool concept. Kinda like flak guns against missiles/torps. Would you be giving up one of your attacks to do this?

 

EDIT: Have this be an "exhaust" trigger. Hits/Crits cancel like symbols of the incoming attack.  Defensive Retrofit slot.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Rocmistro

[shmitty 3,315]

 

An interesting upgrade might be something like:  "When you are being attacked by a ship at close range, you may use roll your anti-squadron dice.  Each success (or maybe crit) allows you to cancel 1 black dice."

 

Doesn't hurt squadrons, doesn't work on Instigator, but makes Assault Frigate MKIIa and GSD IIs more interesting.

 

Cool concept. Kinda like flak guns against missiles/torps. Would you be giving up one of your attacks to do this?

 

 

 

That would be weird with it being out of turn.  Maybe flip a defense token as a cost?  That makes sense.

 

Now I just have to win GenCon so I can propose it as a card.

[Rocmistro 1,090]

The CR90 is not a threat to Demolisher, no...  What you're trying to do is make Demolisher deal with the CR90, because if it can't get past it and into Black range of a better Target, you're interrupting its attack run at worst, or exposing it to destruction by other elements of your fleet at best...

 

Dras, I've read this several times and I'm still not following.

 

Why would Demolisher need to deal with the single CR90 in this example?  Feeding an opponent CR90's piecemeal is easy points for opponent.  They (CR90's) need to strike en masse during a turn in order to overwhelm defense tokens and such. So moving one "up" to intercept Demolisher is not going to do anything.  The CR90 doesn't have a big enough footprint or enough (any?) menacing arcs to effectively stop the Gladiator with engine techs from going wherever it really wants to. 

 

Depending on where the CR90 ends up, Demolisher is either going to gobble it up and reduce speed, saving his haymaker for the subsequent round, or he's just going to go right past it and get into threatening range of something else for his first shot.  Assuming you use 2 (or more) ships to bait Demolisher into some kind of trap....great...what are you doing about the other 4 Raiders aremed with Exp Launchers and OE that are about to tickle your ribs?

Can you demonstrate on Vassal for me what this sacrificial play looks like?  If it truly does work, I need/want to learn this trick.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Rocmistro

[Snipafist 7,536]

If we're considering new upgrades rather than a simple errata (I still like my idea of if Demolisher's title is used, it only gets one attack in its next activation), then something I proposed in another thread is:

 

Blah Blah Tractor Beams (offensive retrofit)

When your opponent declares his intent to activate a ship of equal or smaller size within range 1-3 of you, you may exhaust Blah Blah Tractor Beams to force him to choose another ship to activate instead if possible.

 

Serves as a triple-tap Demolisher counter but also allows for some activation shenanigans that are useful even when not countering Demolisher. Would have a welcome home on ISD-Is and VSD-Is, I can tell you that much .

[thecactusman17 3,192]

I think what I might suggest is that Demolisher must make its attack before Engine Techs triggers. It would remain powerful, but by reducing the threat range it would no longer be as easy to completely bypass all defensive fire.

[Madaghmire 7,274]

If we're considering new upgrades rather than a simple errata (I still like my idea of if Demolisher's title is used, it only gets one attack in its next activation), then something I proposed in another thread is:

Blah Blah Tractor Beams (offensive retrofit)

When your opponent declares his intent to activate a ship of equal or smaller size within range 1-3 of you, you may exhaust Blah Blah Tractor Beams to force him to choose another ship to activate instead if possible.

Serves as a triple-tap Demolisher counter but also allows for some activation shenanigans that are useful even when not countering Demolisher. Would have a welcome home on ISD-Is and VSD-Is, I can tell you that much .

Obviously needs to be fleshed out a bit, but on its face its seems like a real elegant solution. Serves to nerf demolisher but buffs things like the ISD-1, the Vic and Raider, all of which have off retro slots but no def and this might be one of the great defensive upgrades of all time. Rebs can still take it on afmk and mc80 command. Pt cost a question, but I like it a lot in theory. Edited April 26, 2016 by Madaghmire

[Tirion 2,223]

dras ackbar is not an increase in lethality for a cr90 it simply takes your two front arc reds and puts them in the side. Your not gaining any dice.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Tirion

[Drasnighta 26,831]

dras ackbar is not an increase in lethality for a cr90 it simply takes your two front arc reds and puts them in the side. Your not gaining any dice.

 

 

I'm going to act like a Forum-Divinyl and Quote Myself.   (...  points for anyone who gets that Reference.)

 

 

 

 ... this is intentionally absurd...

 

 

 

 

 

Additionally, No, I can't go onto Vassal and plot out every possible move and every possible counter-move between a Demolisher and an Cr90.  Expecting that, in order to justify a possibility, especially when that possibility I posted was merely a clarification of someone-elses position, is also as absurd.

[Rocmistro 1,090]

 

dras ackbar is not an increase in lethality for a cr90 it simply takes your two front arc reds and puts them in the side. Your not gaining any dice.

 

 

I'm going to act like a Forum-Divinyl and Quote Myself.   (...  points for anyone who gets that Reference.)

 

When i think about you...I get that reference :-)

[Tirion 2,223]

I wasn't ignoring the fact that your stated your math was absurd I was pointing out that the comparison itself was pointless. Most since I see so many people day hire strong ackbar can be and really your paying 38 points for, in most cases moving your front arc to your side. Not even the whole thing just the reds.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Tirion

[Drasnighta 26,831]

I wasn't ignoring the fact that your stated your math was absurd I was pointing out that the comparison itself was pointless

 

 

 

 

I did not state my math was absurd.

 

I stated that I was being intentionally absurd.

 

There's a world of difference there...

[Tirion 2,223]

lol fair enough I will now bow out of our absurd discussion

Edited April 26, 2016 by Tirion

[thecactusman17 3,192]

If we're considering new upgrades rather than a simple errata (I still like my idea of if Demolisher's title is used, it only gets one attack in its next activation), then something I proposed in another thread is:

Blah Blah Tractor Beams (offensive retrofit)

When your opponent declares his intent to activate a ship of equal or smaller size within range 1-3 of you, you may exhaust Blah Blah Tractor Beams to force him to choose another ship to activate instead if possible.

Serves as a triple-tap Demolisher counter but also allows for some activation shenanigans that are useful even when not countering Demolisher. Would have a welcome home on ISD-Is and VSD-Is, I can tell you that much .

Obviously needs to be fleshed out a bit, but on its face its seems like a real elegant solution. Serves to nerf demolisher but buffs things like the ISD-1, the Vic and Raider, all of which have off retro slots but no def and this might be one of the great defensive upgrades of all time. Rebs can still take it on afmk and mc80 command. Pt cost a question, but I like it a lot in theory.

That would actually make Demo even now broken, because now you could force your opponent to activate a ship into range, or not take the obvious shot at Demolisher, making it even more powerful by removing the need for first activation.

[Tirion 2,223]

my favorite solution is still the one attack that round.

[Snipafist 7,536]

 

 

If we're considering new upgrades rather than a simple errata (I still like my idea of if Demolisher's title is used, it only gets one attack in its next activation), then something I proposed in another thread is:

Blah Blah Tractor Beams (offensive retrofit)

When your opponent declares his intent to activate a ship of equal or smaller size within range 1-3 of you, you may exhaust Blah Blah Tractor Beams to force him to choose another ship to activate instead if possible.

Serves as a triple-tap Demolisher counter but also allows for some activation shenanigans that are useful even when not countering Demolisher. Would have a welcome home on ISD-Is and VSD-Is, I can tell you that much .

Obviously needs to be fleshed out a bit, but on its face its seems like a real elegant solution. Serves to nerf demolisher but buffs things like the ISD-1, the Vic and Raider, all of which have off retro slots but no def and this might be one of the great defensive upgrades of all time. Rebs can still take it on afmk and mc80 command. Pt cost a question, but I like it a lot in theory.

That would actually make Demo even now broken, because now you could force your opponent to activate a ship into range, or not take the obvious shot at Demolisher, making it even more powerful by removing the need for first activation.

Except Gladiators don't have offensive retrofit slots and Raiders could only use it on other small ships. So... no?

[Tirion 2,223]

.... But vsds and ISDs do soooooo yes lol

[Ginkapo 9,320]

What is most amusing about this whole thing?

That Clontrooper himself is in the process of building a fleet which destroys DeMSU builds but has a weakness to Ackbar.....

Quit moaning and stay one step ahead.

Its hilarious though.

[clontroper5 4,232]

What is most amusing about this whole thing?

That Clontrooper himself is in the process of building a fleet which destroys DeMSU builds but has a weakness to Ackbar.....

Quit moaning and stay one step ahead.

Its hilarious though.

SSSHHHH!!!