Would a little Demolisher nerf bring balance to the force, er.. game

[Funk Fu master 825]

Ok,

 

so EVERYONE knows that demolisher is by far the best upgrade in the game. If you see a list with a GSD, its GOING to have Demo on it.

 

Much like the flip flop with XI7s, would a little FAQ nerf be a good thing for the game:

 

"Demolisher cannot conduct its second attack after it makes an 'engine techs' manouvre"

 

Its only small, but would reduce the rediculous threat range it currently has a little.

 

I am a user of Demo with ETs myself, and love it, but I beleive this would bring a little balance back into the game, and spice up the imp builds.

[ianediger 1,344]

How about saying that you have to make your first attack before your move, or else that the 2nd attack is forfeited. That way, you can still get Demo, you get an ET Demo, but you have to attack before you move.

[clontroper5 4,232]

That would be fair, keep the demolisher effective while decreasing its ability to Alpha ships at speed 4

Edited April 25, 2016 by clontroper5

[Amanal 2,557]

Just add a Support Team Icon to the Title so it takes both slots as an upgrade.

 

It isn't just the ET working the speed but that they also bring it with 2 yaw.

[Gottmituns205 1,601]

That thing is unreal at full speed...

Edited April 26, 2016 by Gottmituns205

[clontroper5 4,232]

That thing is unreal at full speed...

I think you will be disappointed as both sides of the coin actually agree

[clontroper5 4,232]

"During your activation, you can choose to perform 1 attack after you execute a maneuver, you cannot make a 2nd attack"

This would modify from the ultimate derp cannon to a more finece weapon, still capable of the triple tap but requires greater skill and can't hit multiple targets a turn

[TheEasternKing 607]

"During your activation, you can choose to perform 1 attack after you execute a maneuver, you cannot make a 2nd attack"

This would modify from the ultimate derp cannon to a more finece weapon, still capable of the triple tap but requires greater skill and can't hit multiple targets a turn

 

I dunno how it changes anything, the problem IS the attack after moving, then going first the next round, where you do not need to move to fire twice.

 

There is no real way to change this, without rewriting the card completely. 

[Rocmistro 1,090]

Or just change the title to about 40 pts. :-)  If it's worth a 30 pt. bid to go first +10 basic cost = 40 pts.

[homedrone 253]

Or just change the title to about 40 pts. :-)  If it's worth a 30 pt. bid to go first +10 basic cost = 40 pts.

If the title always gave you first player as well..some people might feel that.

Edited April 26, 2016 by homedrone

[Trizzo2 419]

First off lets not do anything too hasty...

 

It's either ban it or not. It is a rule bending card, move & shoot, no half measure is going to effect it.

 

* Increase the cost? Several problems. How high is reasonable, bids will adjust and if an upgrade is valued at more than 50% of the ships value it points to how broken it is (i don't think it is)

* Speed adjustments will be minor hinderances at best

* The cloest you come is "Can move and attack but cannot attack, move, then attack". This would be a nerf but would not stop the dreaded tripple tap. It would also mean that second player Demolisher is way less appealing. Pretty much making this a 1st player Bid upgrade.

 

Ultimately the hype is to much (X amount of clon threads, X amount of Demo threads) considering the meta is still in flux (bids getting higher and higher, list being made have to consider facing higher bid actiavtions), regionals now and nationals soon after. This will allow a lot of quality games to be played. Eventually Worlds. And Wave 3 spoilers ahead.

 

I remember last Worlds. The dominate Demolisher GenCon List, the unstoppable, activation, bid list. How did that go in the end? Lost to naked Gups/CR90 and 8 A Wings. I think people need to chill and calm down the hype.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Trizzo2

[Rocmistro 1,090]

It's either ban it or not. It is a rule bending card, move & shoot, no half measure is going to effect it.

 

* Increase the cost? Several problems. How high, bids will adjust, an upgrade that costs 50% of a ships value. If it's that high it's probally broken to begin with (i don't think it is)

* Speed adjustments will be minor hinderances at best

* Can move and attack but cannot move then attack. This would be a nerf but would not stop a tripple tap

 

Ultimatley the hype is to much, the meta is still in flux (bids getting higher and higher, list being made have to consider facing higher bid actiavtions), regionals and nations are happening soon which will allow a lot of quality games to be played and then eventually Worlds. And Wave 3 spoilers ahead.

 

I remember last Worlds. The dominate Demolisher ala GenCon, the unstoppable, activation, bid list. How did that go in the end? Lost to naked Gups and 8 A Wings. I think people need to chill and calm down the hype.

 

I was being silly about the 40 pt. title, and I also don't think the card needs to be nerfed in order to get a more balanced meta. Rather, I think a couple things could be put into affect to put it back into it's place. (additive balancing rather than reductive balancing)  Fleet Commanders and/or Officer slots that pass the initiative token to the other player for a single turn, new missions/objectives, defensive retrofits that cause damage each time an opposing ship finishes movement at range 1 (slapping down Engine techs)...there are literally tons of ways to additive-nerf demolisher without errata-ing the title.

 

At Worlds, Demolisher didn't have all the other things which make it super-nasty: ordnance experts, APTs, and Raider buddies, all of which complete the circle of high-bid, high-activation, high-damage, fast fleets.  So it's not JUST hype.  The ship can be discussed calmly and with "much chill", and without hype, and there still can be found to be a problem with it.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Rocmistro

[Drasnighta 26,831]

We trialled making it a "Discard this card to: " over the weekend...

 

It can still do what it is doing - but you better get it right just that one time, because there's no second chance.

[BergerFett 708]

turns out.. projection experts trumps demolisher

[Rocmistro 1,090]

turns out.. projection experts trumps demolisher

 

I wouldn't say they "trump" Dem.  Demolisher can throw 18 attack dice with 2 activations before you have a chance to respond.

 

7 front (expanded launchers + CF), end of turn 1.

6 front again, +5 (CF) side, beginning of turn 2.

 

Even Advanced Projectors won't save you from that. With ordnance experts+ screed, you could be looking at 15+ damage easily from that. A shrimp with all shields can take 15 damage before dying.

[Snipafist 7,536]

I've lately been fond of a simple change by adding an extra sentence at the end of the card:
"If this ability is used, Demolisher can only make one attack during its next activation."

 

It prevents a triple tap but still allows a pretty strong double-tap. Demolisher can still bully small ships and some medium ships (particularly if they're already crippled). It allows Demolisher to continuously move+attack all game long, provided you're okay with getting in a single attack every turn (after movement) once you start making use of the title. It doesn't make as much of a difference to a second-player Demolisher (which is fine, that's not the problem) but it tones down the insanity of a first-player Demolisher.

[Tirion 2,223]

I think the real issue is the double tap. Changing it to if you use this ability you only get one attack this activation I think would bring it much more in line. I'm not saying it is broken but I do think that when anyone thing is an auto include you need to take a second look at it.

[Truthiness 5,696]

Much like the flip flop with XI7s, would a little FAQ nerf be a good thing for the game:

 

"Demolisher cannot conduct its second attack after it makes an 'engine techs' manouvre"

 

Its only small, but would reduce the rediculous threat range it currently has a little.

I frankly don't find it all that scary anymore. I've seen the Clonisher build enough times and have gotten comfortable enough with Rieekan that I just don't see it as overpowered as so many people do. The last/first combo can be abused by a number of things. Yeah, Demolisher is the king, but an mc30 with similar upgrades is going to pack almost as nasty of a punch. I think this game has incredible balance, so screaming overpowered immediately turns me off.

That said, your solution is simple and practical. It helps mitigate some of the worst of Demolisher. It isn't an attempt to re-write rules. It isn't pointless whining. It's a minor tweak that could have a good effect. I dig it.

[Stasy 2,501]

I'm hesitant to say it absolutely needs a Nerf. I think if Wave 3 doesn't create any difficulties for it, then yes, it may require it.

But I'd be more apt to believe a Rebel counterpart or straight up counter would be their manipulation of choice.

[Gottmituns205 1,601]

Giving the rebels their own version just makes the problem worse in my book..."now there are two of them" as a Nemodian once said.

[Tirion 2,223]

you win the thread

[CaribbeanNinja 6,207]

Small, cheap ships with scatter tokens that have a high chance to survive Demolisher's attacks (100% chance of survival from broadside) will probably help.

[Vogons 195]

I like the One attack when you use Demolisher idea. I think it's kind of elegant, you can double tap and still get clear. Sacrificing an attack kind of balances. I'm not going to hold my breath for FFG to make the change official though.

[Gottmituns205 1,601]

I was talking to some X-wing players who listened to how Demolisher worked. They flat out all said that FFG sits back, listens, doesn't speak until they are sure...when they speak they fix the issue.

 

If the demolisher player is wasting his attacks on a flotilla he's already lost...one scatter and your GR75 laughs at him. 

 

I love the one attack idea as well, it'll make the Demo player work harder, but risk more. No triple tap one hit kill. 

[Hastatior 1,444]

They can't retroactively "fix" something like demolisher (note that i don't believe it is necessarily OP as it IS, just as it's ABUSED, using the term loosely). I like some of the proactive ideas like FAQing away the engine tech thing which is totally reasonable and just takes the thing down a notch without having to re-write history or nerfing it to the point where it becomes yet another over-priced title card (looking at you, Devastator).

 

I think Flotillas may just become a brilliant Demo buffer, if they are cheap enough it might be worth taking even just ONE for activations and to flank a critical ship to prevent the demo pounce or the MC30 shark attack.

 

I use a totally pimped out Demo with Montferrat in my go-to tourney build but I prefer to go second, so when I use demo its usually like a coup de gras dagger and less like a chainsaw. It takes a great deal of careful manouvering and initial deployment to launch it and get value as second player and not just have it cindered after one attack, so from my perspective, to brutally nerf the upgrade to take the sting out of a single use case is a bit heavy handed and takes a bit of the flavor and variety out of the game